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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2051 Timstr11

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 16:45

The article mentions that the ddrs also blows onto the diffuser which is supposed to help rear balance.

Vettel has improved his qualifying and won the last two races since the device was installed. It seems to be working for Red Bull.

Mercedes are copying the Lotus ddrs. I hope they try the Red Bull solution.

http://www.formula1....2/878/1012.html

James Allen has no evidence (neither does anyone else) of which part is being stalled. Redbull has gained qualy pace, likely due to DDRS. But they have also gained race pace, which has got nothing to do with DDRS.

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#2052 BoxToOvertake

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 17:37

Did you consider that they may have deficiencies in other areas, so that in absolute terms their DDRS alone is not enough to qualify at the front?

which team make better use of the device in hand and which was more efficient in making it work properly ?

#2053 MaxisOne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 17:38

James Allen has no evidence (neither does anyone else) of which part is being stalled. Redbull has gained qualy pace, likely due to DDRS. But they have also gained race pace, which has got nothing to do with DDRS.



+1

:up:


I also cant quite figure out how removing downforce from the rear = more stability ... can someone expound on that please :drunk:

#2054 MaxisOne

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 17:43

which team make better use of the device in hand and which was more efficient in making it work properly ?



You and pretty much everyone else in here have absolutley no idea which one works better because based on the simple fact that the chassis are not identical and dont work the same way aero wise.

The Red Bull was already a superior chassis to the W03. In addition to that it could be argued that the W03 had the better DDRS iteration but is severely lacking in other areas.. which results in a net slower car which it has been for the last two seasons.

So bottom line .. know one knows ... Yes Red Bull DDR's definately helps in Qualy and getting top speed in passing... however as Timster said ... that device does not explain race pace.

#2055 Bloggsworth

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 22:22

They need to add about 2" to 3" to the wheelbase to make life easier for the rear tyres.

#2056 schumimercamg

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 22:32

They need to add about 2" to 3" to the wheelbase to make life easier for the rear tyres.



Tyres aren't the problem now, it's the fundamental pace of the car which is the issue.

#2057 George Costanza

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:20

Willis :rotfl: And what pedigree has the man proven himself since leaving Williams.

The simple fact is.. the MGP003 is simply too far back right now for the MGP004 to be a top 3 car .. let alone top 2. Teams simply do not make quantum leaps forward without significant rule changes and that isn't the case for 2013. Look at the back of the pack... they should have the easiest opportunity to make a 2s leap (with it be Mass or Cater) since they were so far back rushing to get on the grid and they haven't been able to make any impact from getting from the back 2 teams. Williams has been stuck for years mid pack. FI is the only team has made significant progress up the grid and even that is limited.

Michael made a wise decision. He saw that even A SIGNIFICANT upgrade by MGP be pointless and probably slow them down a few tenths so why bother committing to them early.. Unless RedBull or McLaren offered him a drive.. better to call it day and that's what he did.

Mercedes is actually quickly become a joke. :lol: :drunk: Full works team. Tremendous engine experience. Supposed top F1 talent across the board and they can't get this dog of a car up the grid. After Toyota and BMW left, I had really hoped Mercedes would have been different.. but once again. Privateers are showing the manufacturers again how to compete in F1 (and I consider Ferrari a privateer).

Maybe we should take a poll of how long Mercedes will stay in F1 as works team and end up going back to being an engine partner only.



How is Ferrari a privateer? That is something I do not quite understand.

#2058 BoxToOvertake

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:13

oops , looks like this joke will be beaten by sauber , 20 points behind , neother of the two will upgrade the car till the end , a couple of 6 or 7 places for sauber will see mercedes in 6th

#2059 KiloWatt

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:22

oops , looks like this joke will be beaten by sauber , 20 points behind , neother of the two will upgrade the car till the end , a couple of 6 or 7 places for sauber will see mercedes in 6th


You came in here specifically to state that? Ok then. :|

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#2060 Schumacher7

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 15:39

You came in here specifically to state that? Ok then. :|

Well he's right...

#2061 BoxToOvertake

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:11

You came in here specifically to state that? Ok then. :|

it hurts , but thats the truth :) , actually i wanted for mercedes to do well untill bahrain or spain when the incompetence become apparent

#2062 amppatel

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:12

How can a big team go for about 3/4 of a season not developing the car? They said they concentrated on the tyres and not very many aero changes happened in this time, maybe they played with the engine maps/suspension geometry - what did all the aero and other guys do? I guess the team are putting a massive amount of time and money into the 2014 regulations.

I guess this team wants to WIN championships, not come second or just make progress from last year! Surely they know that they are not going to become the top team with the constant rules. So what can they do? Just wait it out until 2014 and make sure they are the most prepared team!

Next year I think they will try and build a semi-good car. See if it is any good in the first bit of the season and if its not they will simply give up and fully concentrate on 2014, but the top 3 will have to spend time on their 2013 cars as they will have a chance at the championships - hindering their 2014 cars.

Hamilton already says that he is not expecting to win races next season - I don't think he is just saying that! Also I think that people saying that he moved to Mercedes because they are a works team is wrong, I expect McLaren to have the same raw power. The only reason I can think is that MGP have shown him the plan for the next two years and it shows how much of the resources are going into the 2014 car and it is obviously more than McLaren - and as all the top teams will start for the same level MGP have quite a large chance of building a good car!

This is just my view on things, and even if I'm right then the 2014 car (even with all their efforts) could be crap, as perforce doesn't scale to resources used as they would like!

So guys on this thread need to chill out and look at the bigger picture!

#2063 BoxToOvertake

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 16:17

they abandoned 2010 for 2011 and it was worse than 2010 , they abandoned 2011 for 2012 and now it is 5th and on the way down to 6th . now they abandoned 2012 and will abandon 2013 for 2014, this could only go well :lol:

Edited by BoxToOvertake, 09 October 2012 - 16:17.


#2064 amppatel

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 17:08

they abandoned 2010 for 2011 and it was worse than 2010 , they abandoned 2011 for 2012 and now it is 5th and on the way down to 6th . now they abandoned 2012 and will abandon 2013 for 2014, this could only go well :lol:


Yea I guess that we can only hope that 2014 is different due to the rule changes!


#2065 BigCHrome

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 20:40

How can a big team go for about 3/4 of a season not developing the car? They said they concentrated on the tyres and not very many aero changes happened in this time, maybe they played with the engine maps/suspension geometry - what did all the aero and other guys do? I guess the team are putting a massive amount of time and money into the 2014 regulations.

I guess this team wants to WIN championships, not come second or just make progress from last year! Surely they know that they are not going to become the top team with the constant rules. So what can they do? Just wait it out until 2014 and make sure they are the most prepared team!

Next year I think they will try and build a semi-good car. See if it is any good in the first bit of the season and if its not they will simply give up and fully concentrate on 2014, but the top 3 will have to spend time on their 2013 cars as they will have a chance at the championships - hindering their 2014 cars.

Hamilton already says that he is not expecting to win races next season - I don't think he is just saying that! Also I think that people saying that he moved to Mercedes because they are a works team is wrong, I expect McLaren to have the same raw power. The only reason I can think is that MGP have shown him the plan for the next two years and it shows how much of the resources are going into the 2014 car and it is obviously more than McLaren - and as all the top teams will start for the same level MGP have quite a large chance of building a good car!

This is just my view on things, and even if I'm right then the 2014 car (even with all their efforts) could be crap, as perforce doesn't scale to resources used as they would like!

So guys on this thread need to chill out and look at the bigger picture!


They have updated the car - it's just not working. The updates are not giving them anything.


#2066 HanD

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:07

oops , looks like this joke will be beaten by sauber , 20 points behind , neother of the two will upgrade the car till the end , a couple of 6 or 7 places for sauber will see mercedes in 6th


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103163

"We have parts coming in the next few weeks in Korea and the races after that."




The article mentions that the ddrs also blows onto the diffuser which is supposed to help rear balance.

Vettel has improved his qualifying and won the last two races since the device was installed. It seems to be working for Red Bull.

Mercedes are copying the Lotus ddrs. I hope they try the Red Bull solution.

http://www.formula1....2/878/1012.html


and if they do, everyone here will cry and ask why are they wasting resources on things that can't be carried over to next year....

#2067 maxx7

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 21:37

Is there any reason in order to make mercedes did ​​a big step forward in 2013?

Edited by maxx7, 09 October 2012 - 21:39.


#2068 BoxToOvertake

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 22:19

Is there any reason in order to make mercedes did ​​a big step forward in 2013?


next year cars is an evolution of current cars , no technical changes . so expect top dogs in 2012 to stay put in 2013 ,unless merc discover a brilliant innovation that will make them slow sorry i mean fast

#2069 Watkins74

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 23:20

Massive apologies if this is old news but I saw this at SPEED today.

Danner Tells Lauda To Fire Mercedes Staff: A German F1 pundit has advised Niki Lauda to take an axe to Mercedes' current personnel lineup. Lauda, the great Austrian triple World Champion, has been signed on as Mercedes' non-executive chairman — effectively a decision-making link between the German marque's Stuttgart headquarters and the racing team in the UK. So far, he has negotiated Mercedes' new Concorde Agreement deal and lured Lewis Hamilton onto the team for 2013. RTL commentator Christian Danner, a former driver, now wants Lauda to sack staff. "The people who built this car should really all be fired," he told Bild newspaper. It can't be that you drive all around the world for nine months only to find that your car is as fast as a Toro Rosso." Danner said it is now up to Lauda to put things right. "He is responsible to make the next decisions. And those decisions will primarily be about the personnel."


I had thought Lauda was mostly advisory/ceremonial in his new position. I didn't think he had the power to fire people. I respected him as a driver but as a team executive, not so much.

Once again, I am sorry if this is old news.

#2070 sharo

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 23:24

If Lauda is Zetche's Helmut Marko he would be able to fire, stab or hang anyone.

#2071 exmayol

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 00:29

Both Lauda and Marko have interesting roles that no one can clearly define. Marko has let both STR guys go and no we have 2 undefined quantities driving around. Lauda will bark, do some smoke and mirrors kind of stuff and get the credit if MGP improves... even for reasons not related to Lauda.

#2072 Paco

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:51

How is Ferrari a privateer? That is something I do not quite understand.


Very simple. Ferrari road car sales fund F1 and other racing series. It's an extreme privateer but I would never lump Ferrari into BMW/Toyota/Mercedes/Honda etc.

So yes... a Privateer same as Williams, McLaren etc.

#2073 Sakae

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:56

Very simple. Ferrari road car sales fund F1 and other racing series. It's an extreme privateer but I would never lump Ferrari into BMW/Toyota/Mercedes/Honda etc.

So yes... a Privateer same as Williams, McLaren etc.


Is Fiat a privateer (as McLaren)?

Wiki

In motorsport, a privateer is usually an entrant into a racing event that is not directly supported by an automobile manufacturer.


Other companies currently sponsoring Scuderia Ferrari include: Fiat (Fiat car brand, part of the Fiat car group which is the largest stakeholder (85%) in Ferrari)


Edited by Sakae, 10 October 2012 - 05:03.


#2074 Lamag

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:59

Mercedes updates on details (Video)
http://www.auto-moto...il-5885763.html

#2075 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:59

Very simple. Ferrari road car sales fund F1 and other racing series. It's an extreme privateer but I would never lump Ferrari into BMW/Toyota/Mercedes/Honda etc.

So yes... a Privateer same as Williams, McLaren etc.


Mercedes road car sales fund F1 and other racing series as well :confused:

#2076 MSCDesign

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 19:53

For those who would like to read about Technical side of Mercedes W03.

Technical review of latest development of the F1 W03 explained in three articles.

Mercedes F1 W03 development briefing [Part 1 of 3] : Pre – Singapore GP exhaust development

Mercedes F1 W03 development briefing [Part 2 of 3] : “Downwash” sidepods and “Coanda” exhaust update (Singapore & Japanese GP)

Part 3 coming soon.


Recommended for all those who are interested in technical side and development of the car itself. A technical articles on a high professional level. Enjoy!

EDIT: Would appreciate for any feedback as well!

Edited by MSCDesign, 11 October 2012 - 20:03.


#2077 jrg19

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:38

Posted Image

Running the "duct" in FP1, any benefits?

#2078 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:02

Can Lauda clear out Brawn from this laughing stock. The sooner the better.

#2079 Timstr11

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 14:03

Posted Image

Running the "duct" in FP1, any benefits?

According to pictures both MS and Ros ran with the DRD this morning during FP1, which is a first. It was always 1 car.
Might be race-ready soon.

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#2080 Kvothe

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 14:05

According to pictures both MS and Ros ran with the DRD this morning during FP1, which is a first. It was always 1 car.
Might be race-ready soon.


Before Lotus? That would be quite an achievement.

#2081 MSCDesign

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 17:50

For those who would like to read about Technical side of Mercedes W03.

Technical review of latest development of the F1 W03 explained in three articles.

Mercedes F1 W03 development briefing [Part 1 of 3] : Pre – Singapore GP exhaust development

Mercedes F1 W03 development briefing [Part 2 of 3] : “Downwash” sidepods and “Coanda” exhaust update (Singapore & Japanese GP)

Part 3 coming soon.


Recommended for all those who are interested in technical side and development of the car itself. A technical articles on a high professional level. Enjoy!

EDIT: Would appreciate for any feedback as well!


Part 3: Mercedes F1 W03 development briefing [Part 3 of 3]: New car components at Singapore and Japanese GP


#2082 maxx7

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 19:41

Who is the chief engineer of the project W04?? and in general what is the structure of technical staff team?

Edited by maxx7, 12 October 2012 - 19:44.


#2083 race addicted

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 19:47

I'd like to know too!

#2084 Timstr11

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 20:43

What I've gathered is that Costa is overseeing the W04 project (Willis the W05 project).
Obviously they'll be making use of the same design resources so I don't think they have separate teams. Those days are over since the RRA.
Costa is a mechanical design man. Mike Elliott, the new head of aero, should bring some new fresh ideas in aero design.

#2085 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 20:48

Who is the chief engineer of the project W04?? and in general what is the structure of technical staff team?



I'd like to know too!


Acording to Brawn, Willis. As to the 'general structure', it seems that they are taking the McLaren double-design structure to a whole new level, combining the classic Ferrari approach with the Mc philosophy. Working two seasons in advance, but incorporating what they can real-time, IMHO. If it pays off, they will be pretty strong in the years to come. If not, it is a fail of Toyota/Honda magnitude.

edit: yeah, Costa it is then, my bad.

Edited by Szoelloe, 12 October 2012 - 20:49.


#2086 Lamag

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 23:42

According to the link, Aldo Costa is already working on the 2013 car, and Willis is working on the base of the 2014 car. This is a pretty good way to work but a very expensive one too.
http://www.motorspor...n_12100443.html

#2087 MSchumi

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:08

7th and 8th for Mercedes after the Lotus Renault's get penalised. That's a decent enough place to start from tomorrow.

#2088 rog

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:09

Luckily both drivers managed to get into Q3. But that's pretty much the best they could do today, maybe P8 would have been possible for Rosberg with a better sector 3 time. Sector 3 was ridiculous slow for Mercedes considering that it's a very short sector, this car is a pain when it comes to downforce in faster corners.

#2089 ivand911

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:13

7th and 8th for Mercedes after the Lotus Renault's get penalised. That's a decent enough place to start from tomorrow.

What Lotus did?


#2090 meddo

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:43

What Lotus did?

Kimi didn¨t care. This time about the yellow flags.

#2091 Massa

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:45

I think it was the same for Rosberg, no ?

#2092 Urawa

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:18

AMuS

tyres, tyres, tyres.
Ross says the next tracks should suit them better with the expection of Austin and it´s last sector.
I swear I heard that already last week

#2093 onewingedangel

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:01

According to the link, Aldo Costa is already working on the 2013 car, and Willis is working on the base of the 2014 car. This is a pretty good way to work but a very expensive one too.
http://www.motorspor...n_12100443.html


I think this is more of a 2014 specific decision due to the more radical chaange - Costa is working on the current regulation car, which even if not a direct evolution of the current car, they have 3 years of information of aspects of the current format to put to use, and aspects can certainly be carried over. Whilst Willis is undertaking initial work on the 2014 car - which has been given a longer lead time due to the changes making their current baseline (the W03 and W04) offer little benefit.

#2094 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:35

AMuS

tyres, tyres, tyres.
Ross says the next tracks should suit them better with the expection of Austin and it´s last sector.
I swear I heard that already last week


I swear i'm reading those words for the past 3 years over and over again.

#2095 Anja

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 14:43

7th and 8th for Mercedes after the Lotus Renault's get penalised. That's a decent enough place to start from tomorrow.

Wishful thinking much?


#2096 Urawa

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:12

Shocking pace, shocking! :evil:
Luckily Williams have an even worse weekend here so Merc is not the slowest of the "old" teams

#2097 exmayol

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:15

Trending P13... and that's with Koba, Button and Rosberg DNFs. Seriously sad.

#2098 mkoscevic

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:19

Shocking pace, shocking!


With so much recent development, this is... i don't know really...

#2099 Vic Vega

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:24

Shocking pace, shocking! :evil:

Nothing shocking about BAR Honda fulfilling it's potential. Boy, Aldo sure did help them.

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#2100 marchi-91

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:25

what a pos