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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2151 Szoelloe

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:26

I agree with this.
When Mercedes bought into the financially ailing Brawn GP team, they misjudged the situation and continued to run the team on a shoestring budget.
They realized too late that the team was in complete shambles after the Honda withdrawal. They went from 800 to 400 employees (including engineers) within the space of a couple of months. The 2009 championship was won based on a full-on Honda assault led by Brawn starting when he arrived there.
The low-level funding went on until last year when they realized they had to step up.

It's too early to see the result of this in my opinion. Although I expect a better car for 2013, it will not be enough to compete with those who are already on a good development path. Unless they are saved by the new spec 2013 Pirelli tyres. The 2013 tyres will have a wider operating window due to a new construction, new profile and new compounds.


I know I am nearly alone with this, but it was the tyres that had broken their back this season. The car itself was/is very solid, and would be bloody fast if not for the 'delta-time' style of racing. They have tyre tested with the old config, to get extra development time. And in the end, that seems to have crippled their whole season. So the Pirelli-factor will be very-very decisive, IMHO, because if the new construction and compounds ( btw, is that a fact? I only remember reading about new compounds, and was thinking that will not be enough?) give them back what they lost they could be reasonably ok in 2013.




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#2152 Massa_f1

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:28

he is right, mclaren barely made 1 more point than them in the last race... :rotfl:


ha ha true, but being realistic Mercedes are nowhere. It is about time they admitted to it and moved on. Saying they are making gains every week when they clearly aren't is worrying. I mean do they actually believe the rubbish they speak

#2153 eronrules

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:35

ha ha true, but being realistic Mercedes are nowhere. It is about time they admitted to it and moved on. Saying they are making gains every week when they clearly aren't is worrying. I mean do they actually believe the rubbish they speak



we said the same about 2007-08 honda's ... and then BOOM ... BGP01 ... out of the blue :smoking:

but, realistically, prepare for another record breaking year for RBR and SV, the first 4-time back to back WDC :|

provided that the world doesn't end on 21 dec 2012 :lol:

#2154 Massa_f1

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:51

we said the same about 2007-08 honda's ... and then BOOM ... BGP01 ... out of the blue :smoking:

but, realistically, prepare for another record breaking year for RBR and SV, the first 4-time back to back WDC :|

provided that the world doesn't end on 21 dec 2012 :lol:


How will he be the first 4 time back to back champion. Are you not forgetting another certain German driver?

Edited by Massa_f1, 15 October 2012 - 11:53.


#2155 Timstr11

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:57

I know I am nearly alone with this, but it was the tyres that had broken their back this season. The car itself was/is very solid, and would be bloody fast if not for the 'delta-time' style of racing. They have tyre tested with the old config, to get extra development time. And in the end, that seems to have crippled their whole season. So the Pirelli-factor will be very-very decisive, IMHO, because if the new construction and compounds ( btw, is that a fact? I only remember reading about new compounds, and was thinking that will not be enough?) give them back what they lost they could be reasonably ok in 2013.

It is fact: the headline only mentions compounds, but the wider working range is confirmed inside the article.

#2156 eronrules

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:04

How will he be the first 4 time back to back champion. Are you not forgetting another certain German driver?


my bad ... i thought he had a break between first 3 and last 2 with ferrari ... :blush: so vettel has to beat schumi's 5 straight run between 00-04 :smoking:

#2157 eronrules

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:24

this might shed some light on mercedes's blistering lack of pace :drunk:
According to Gary Anderson of BBCF1

I've been speaking to a few of the guys there and they say there are so many people that nobody makes any decisions any more.
It's only three years since the same team - then called Brawn - won the championship.im
OK, they had lots of Honda money to develop the car and the secret weapon of the 'double diffuser', and it wouldn't have happened without that. But back then it was a one-man band with Ross Brawn leading the team - and then, when Honda pulled out and they cut the workforce back, it was even more like that.
Now, after a major recruitment programme, they have a multi-man band and there are four guys in there who have been technical directors at other teams all doing different roles.
Meanwhile, Red Bull have Adrian Newey. He has a great team of people around him but he is the captain of the ship.
Brawn argues that everyone at Mercedes has defined roles and knows what they're supposed to be doing and the parameters of their responsibility.
But you have to look at their slide in performance after a promising start to this season and say something is going badly wrong there.


as gary was once a TD himself ... i think his opinion counts a bit more than any other speculations

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19941812

#2158 Sakae

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:32

Ross has actually won something with other teams and with this team. Somehow I think i't the german part that is beyond of a joke

I wish you guys make your mind about that. One day I am reading there are virtually no Germans around that car (and motor), and all credit goes to Brits, yet when there are bad days, all credit goes to German side of it. Which one is it then?

Edited by Sakae, 15 October 2012 - 12:33.


#2159 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:34

Its blindingly obvious that Brawn has got to go.

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#2160 Szoelloe

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:40

It is fact: the headline only mentions compounds, but the wider working range is confirmed inside the article.



Thank you for that. I missed this.Seems too be positive.

#2161 MSCDesign

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:44

Nico Rosberg reckons Mercedes is closing gap to McLaren LOL LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL LOL

#2162 Longtimefan

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:54

Nico Rosberg reckons Mercedes is closing gap to McLaren LOL LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL LOL


They are.




...but only because McLaren are slipping back, not Merc going forwards.


#2163 KiloWatt

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:58

They are.

...but only because McLaren are slipping back, not Merc going forwards.


I'm reading this comment as McLaren getting slower, not Merc getting faster. Or I'm misunderstanding the conversation. But that scenario doesn't make sense, car's aren't supposed to be getting slower over the season.

But if I misunderstood you, my bad.

#2164 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:16

Even with a broken Mclaren, Lewis was still faster than the Merc. That is how pathetic they were. Since Canada they have been in decline.



#2165 ali_M

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:39

Even with a broken Mclaren, Lewis was still faster than the Merc. That is how pathetic they were. Since Canada they have been in decline.


Yeah, the McLaren had a broken roll bar for much of the race leading to massive tire wear and still Hamilton managed to finish ahead of Mercedes. This is a really poor result indeed. Really poor showing.

They've year after year, shown that they are able to at most, keep up with the others during a development race. This seemed to be the case last year. However, they haven't been able to make a step forward relative to the leaders.

Hamilton must be really wondering now if he made the right decision.

#2166 Tardis40

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:47

Nico Rosberg reckons Mercedes is closing gap to McLaren LOL LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL LOL


I want some of what Nico is smoking.


#2167 JRizzle86

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:57

Nico Rosberg reckons Mercedes is closing gap to McLaren LOL LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL LOL


Think it's more a case that McLaren moving closer to Mercedes after a string of poor results.

#2168 MaxisOne

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:10

Nico Rosberg reckons Mercedes is closing gap to McLaren LOL LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL LOL



Now i have been one of the most reasonable people when it comes to this team with the hope that they will improve over time. I have heard and tolerated all the optimistic statements pre and post race in regards to car performance.


But seriously.. Can someone please get Nico some oxygen ? He must be delusional from an accident or something.. thats the only way i can accept what i just read on Autosport.


Mclaren scores points on a BAD day.. We can barely score points on a GOOD DAY.. WTF is he smoking ?? Does he get bonuses from Mercedes for uttering tripe like that ?


Really Nico ??? Really ? :rolleyes:

Edited by MaxisOne, 15 October 2012 - 15:11.


#2169 1Devil1

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:19

He is completely out of his mind. In the last few races Mercedes struggled to get in q3 and was embarrassed race pace wise. Even Force India and Toro Rosso spanked them. Perhaps he went straight home after his retirement and didn't realize why Lewis was so slow. He should really get a reality check. Sometimes I don't believe what he is saying. Is he protecting Mercedes or does he really believe his own words? I hope his optimistic approach doesn't held him back to change teams, if he is staying with Mercedes he is destroying his career.

He is a fast guy and deserves at least once a quick car.

#2170 Timstr11

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:22

A bit of nuance on Rosberg's statement is needed. He was specifically referring to qualy pace.
Immediately after that he talked about race pace which he had reservations about.


The autosport article is misquoting him deliberately as he clearly made the distinction between qualy and race pace.

Edited by Timstr11, 15 October 2012 - 15:22.


#2171 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:27

Poor Nico. His career seems to be in terminal decline, in parallel with the decline of the Mercedes team.

Maybe he has taken a leaf out of Schumacher's book and tried to remain professional and tried to keep team morale high.

Or maybe he has smoked that leaf instead in an attempt to numb the pain Posted Image



#2172 DutchCruijff

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 15:33

A bit of nuance on Rosberg's statement is needed. He was specifically referring to qualy pace.
Immediately after that he talked about race pace which he had reservations about.


The autosport article is misquoting him deliberately as he clearly made the distinction between qualy and race pace.

Really? So what? The car is still shit in the race and is just on par with STRs/FIs/Williams & Sauber, and to be honest if it weren't for Schumacher & Rosberg we'd see the true shittiness of the car emerging.

#2173 Paa

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:01

I know I am nearly alone with this, but it was the tyres that had broken their back this season. The car itself was/is very solid, and would be bloody fast if not for the 'delta-time' style of racing. They have tyre tested with the old config, to get extra development time. And in the end, that seems to have crippled their whole season. So the Pirelli-factor will be very-very decisive, IMHO, because if the new construction and compounds ( btw, is that a fact? I only remember reading about new compounds, and was thinking that will not be enough?) give them back what they lost they could be reasonably ok in 2013.


I think this was the case at the beginning of the season, when the car was quick, but eat the tyres too fast.
They didn't focus on aero to 'concentrate on the tyres' and as as result of that now the car is slow as **** and still eat its tyres.
W03 is clearly lacking of downforce, as Merc is always very slow in the fast corner sectors.

I think this is one of the worst in season development I saw from a so-called top team.

During the early races Merc could fight for first row starts during qualifying. Now they are 2sec off the pace after a major upgrade package. WTF

Edited by Paa, 15 October 2012 - 17:02.


#2174 Jon83

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:11

The car is hopeless and for Mercedes, the season cannot end soon enough. Even earlier in the season when they showed some promise, it was never convincing.



#2175 Paco

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:30

No wonder had some serious reservations about signing up for 2 more years of listening to Nico go on and on about how decent MGP is.. I bet some morons within the team actually believe some of nico's nonsense and may actually be hampering progress. I have felt that from day 1 of his tenure at MGP. Michael is probably like this idiot doesn't know what a proper f1 should feel like and is making decisions and providing feedback that will hamper the team further so time to call it a day.

Poor Hamilton. Destined for a Villeneuve career freefall to try a building up effort. Between getting used German culture, a team on a definitive backslide and a hapless teammate - its going to make for a long year in 2013 for him.

Nico is just sooooooooooo out to lunch on what it takes to field a top car. You need care that works at 75% of the circuits, and a crew that can not only keep up but out develop your competition not a car that works at 3 tracks, and a design team that can barely develop during the season. 5 teams havely outclassed MGP with progress from January to now... That doesn't bode well for them in the future.

#2176 rog

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 18:26

I think this was the case at the beginning of the season, when the car was quick, but eat the tyres too fast.
They didn't focus on aero to 'concentrate on the tyres' and as as result of that now the car is slow as **** and still eat its tyres.
W03 is clearly lacking of downforce, as Merc is always very slow in the fast corner sectors.




It was foreseeable. They can't stop developing the car further mid-season, it was a really stupid decision. During this time they lost ground in comparison to other teams. Several people warned in this thread and were surprised about this statement from Brawn.

#2177 exmayol

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 19:48

No wonder had some serious reservations about signing up for 2 more years of listening to Nico go on and on about how decent MGP is.. I bet some morons within the team actually believe some of nico's nonsense and may actually be hampering progress. I have felt that from day 1 of his tenure at MGP. Michael is probably like this idiot doesn't know what a proper f1 should feel like and is making decisions and providing feedback that will hamper the team further so time to call it a day.

Poor Hamilton. Destined for a Villeneuve career freefall to try a building up effort. Between getting used German culture, a team on a definitive backslide and a hapless teammate - its going to make for a long year in 2013 for him.

Nico is just sooooooooooo out to lunch on what it takes to field a top car. You need care that works at 75% of the circuits, and a crew that can not only keep up but out develop your competition not a car that works at 3 tracks, and a design team that can barely develop during the season. 5 teams havely outclassed MGP with progress from January to now... That doesn't bode well for them in the future.


Oh comon mate don't make NR at fault for bad car and PR nonsense. Remember how after winter 2010 testing MSC told that the car was shit yet few days later had to retract the statement. NR has no choice but to play the game given that the team employs his for years to come... unless he equals of beats LH and Ferrari signs him for 2014.

#2178 ivand911

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:18

Some people warned here that to many cocks will not be good and that is what happen. Clearly nobody is making decisions there and there isn't real boss.
What is Bell doing, no words about him? They try to make everybody happy, but it didn't work out. Looking at Costa he seems really sad. I think he quickly discover(like Michael did) that this isn't Ferrari.

Edited by ivand911, 15 October 2012 - 20:25.


#2179 superdelphinus

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:23

Some people warned here that to many cocks will not be good


?????????

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#2180 ali.unal

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:45

?????????

Don't be pedantic. Surely you must have understood what he meant by that. I do however detest people's feverish attempts to ridicule posters whose mother language may not necessarily be English for this FFS is an international forum.

In case you still insist being a jerk, it's cook, Mr/s. Know-it-All.

#2181 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:46

Freudian slip...

#2182 eronrules

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:49

or you could say ... too many chiefs, not enough Indians :p

#2183 Szoelloe

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 20:57

Gary Anderson has spoken some pretty serious BS since he transferred to the media from a disastrous career as a TD. I don't think he has spoken to anybody bar maybe some disloyal pitcrew member about what exactly is going on with the engineering dep. Or maybe Bigois, who was sacked mid-season for 'some' reason, after a 'fruitful' BAR Honda career. I think GA is talking out of his axx, and is kicking a dead horse, how nice of him. It is kind of trendy to keep parroting the 'too many cooks' phrase, without really knowing what is going on. Merc is having a terrible, farcical, joke of a season, does not communicate well with the outside, fueling the dumb theorizing about why they designed the worst dog that a top team ever put on track. They let bambi eye Nico speak his mind to the media, and there is more to come from Lauda if they let him loose in the paddock. Speaking of Bigois though, I wonder how much he is peronally at fault in the tremendous success of the W03? Could he be at fault in the halted development which incidentally coincides with his sudden departure from Merc? First Zander, who maybe had more to do with the BGP-01 than Bigois, and now him. If I were ever a Honda fan, I would have asked for his head long years ago. If there is one person whom I -after this season slightly hesitantly, but still - trust in this team, than it is Brawn, and not an old-school mechanic like Anderson is. Sorry for the rant.

#2184 superdelphinus

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:53

Don't be pedantic. Surely you must have understood what he meant by that. I do however detest people's feverish attempts to ridicule posters whose mother language may not necessarily be English for this FFS is an international forum.

In case you still insist being a jerk, it's cook, Mr/s. Know-it-All.


Yes, me pointing it out was a joke, captain happy bunny. Actually I think he meant cooks, not cook ;)

#2185 sharo

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:57

"Too many cooks does spoil the broth" is the equivalent, I've been told, to a Bulgarian proverb about too many grannies and a sick baby.
Ivan, I think, has in mind di Montezemolo's words about the roosters and meant exactly a cock - the male of a hen. The rest is just your dirty sub consciousness :p

#2186 DS27

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:59

Don't be pedantic. Surely you must have understood what he meant by that. I do however detest people's feverish attempts to ridicule posters whose mother language may not necessarily be English for this FFS is an international forum.

In case you still insist being a jerk, it's cook, Mr/s. Know-it-All.


Get a sense of humour - he wasn't ridiculing the poster. It's just a funny 'slip'. No one will feel any less towards the poster, and i'm sure they will see the funny side.

#2187 exmayol

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:35

Nasty Ivan, nasty.

#2188 packapoo

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:39

Think it's more a case that McLaren moving closer to Mercedes after a string of poor results.


Yeah. If he'd said Maccas were closing in on Merc, would've made more sense.

#2189 ivand911

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:20

"Too many cooks does spoil the broth" is the equivalent, I've been told, to a Bulgarian proverb about too many grannies and a sick baby.
Ivan, I think, has in mind di Montezemolo's words about the roosters and meant exactly a cock - the male of a hen. The rest is just your dirty sub consciousness :p

Yeah, I mean rooster, this is what dictionary says about cock. To many of them in the team.


#2190 maxx7

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 17:44

Is there any information what sort size of budget team?

Edited by maxx7, 16 October 2012 - 17:47.


#2191 eronrules

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 17:53

Is there any information what sort size of budget team?


petronas ... their title sponsor pays 30 mil/year and the contribution from merc and aabar is round about 50-70 mil/year (speculation) ... i'd say they have a budget of 90-120 mil range.

Edited by eronrules, 16 October 2012 - 17:53.


#2192 MSCDesign

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 18:06

Mercedes hopes for strong end to season as it looks to 2013

This is sad really. Ross repeating same sh*t for the whole season:

"I think these next few tracks coming up - we're not sure about Austin yet - but they tend to come a little bit towards the nature of our car,"


Team already focusing on 2013. 2012 is just to score some points to save the fifth place from saubers. Really sad, I lost all respect to Brawn. They don't show even one bit of a respect to michael and to give him something in return for what they have done to him in past 3 years. So Michael could at least finish his career on a high with a win, but seems they don't care about that.

Edited by MSCDesign, 16 October 2012 - 18:06.


#2193 Sakae

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 18:11

I always thought very best about Ross Brawn, but lately his credibility was seriously shaken, and I do not listen to him anymore. You want to be strong, be strong first, and then talk. We have reached that point some time ago.

#2194 Prancing Horse

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 18:25

I think it will be a good car next year, a taste of what's to come in 2014, they will have learned all the lessons of the past 3 years and the team will gel. I would put money on Hamilton and Brawn turning the teams fortunes this time around.

#2195 eronrules

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 18:29

Mercedes hopes for strong end to season as it looks to 2013

This is sad really. Ross repeating same sh*t for the whole season:

"I think these next few tracks coming up - we're not sure about Austin yet - but they tend to come a little bit towards the nature of our car," Brawn said. "[Korea was] not necessarily the best circuit for us either, particularly the last complex, but the circuits we've got coming up if you remember last year we were a bit stronger in this batch of circuits.



correct me if i'm wrong but both abu dhabi and india has twisty last sectors like korea. so they'll be strong in first sector /or sectors with straights and rubbish in later parts where times are to be found. also last couple of races, they're not even the fastest cars in the speed trap... both toro rosso's and FI's are faster ATM with ferrari close by. and this is their last year run at these ''batches of circuits'' ... not too impressive TBH

http://www.f1fanatic...ionship-points/

#2196 maxx7

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 18:34

petronas ... their title sponsor pays 30 mil/year and the contribution from merc and aabar is round about 50-70 mil/year (speculation) ... i'd say they have a budget of 90-120 mil range.


With this budget,Mercedes ought to build a competitive car.... But when they doing this??? They have everything for this.. But every year something Mercedes is missing for this. .

Edited by maxx7, 16 October 2012 - 18:35.


#2197 eronrules

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 18:42

With this budget,Mercedes ought to build a competitive car.... But when they doing this??? They have everything for this.. But every year something Mercedes is missing for this. .


one lame explanation (or excuse :wave: ) can be this ... at the start of 2009, when honda pulled out, it was reported that their man power was reduced to 300 from 800-900, a lot of important personels were scooped up by other teams and that showed in 2nd half of brawnGP's performance. in this very competetive world of F1, it's very difficult to reorganize from such a drastic downsizing, money is not always the issue, finding the right people for right job is.


however ... that explanation / excuse was good for W01/W02, not for W03 ... :drunk:

#2198 Timstr11

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 18:59

correct me if i'm wrong but both abu dhabi and india has twisty last sectors like korea. so they'll be strong in first sector /or sectors with straights and rubbish in later parts where times are to be found. also last couple of races, they're not even the fastest cars in the speed trap... both toro rosso's and FI's are faster ATM with ferrari close by. and this is their last year run at these ''batches of circuits'' ... not too impressive TBH

http://www.f1fanatic...ionship-points/

Long and high-speed corners is a fundamental problem of this car, whereas it is better at tight and low speed corners.

#2199 F1Champion

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:05

Mercedes keep building cars with fundamental flaws. They have a problem with the mechanical layout and overall aero balance. Get James Key in the team. They haven't yet found a decent base to build a car on 3 years into F1. Without it they cannot make a steady rise to the top. Lotus, Sauber and Williams have better bases to develop their cars on.

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#2200 maxx7

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:07

one lame explanation (or excuse :wave: ) can be this ... at the start of 2009, when honda pulled out, it was reported that their man power was reduced to 300 from 800-900, a lot of important personels were scooped up by other teams and that showed in 2nd half of brawnGP's performance. in this very competetive world of F1, it's very difficult to reorganize from such a drastic downsizing, money is not always the issue, finding the right people for right job is.


however ... that explanation / excuse was good for W01/W02, not for W03 ... :drunk:

each year justification, very bad competitiveness car.. In terms of the Rules no reason to leap in 2013 .. But who can guarantee that Mercdes make a big step forward in 2014 and become a leader? there are no guarantees.