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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2201 eronrules

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:10

Long and high-speed corners is a fundamental problem of this car, whereas it is better at tight and low speed corners.


that was at the start of the season ... have you seen the medium/high speed layout of both COTA and india?? or the 90 deg off cambered slow speed corners that requieres good traction??? W03 chews up tire like a drug addict on coke ... and they dont' have good high/medium speed balance. so i'm assuming 8th/9th at best in race result if they are lucky.

i may sound like a doom monger or gloating a bit cause i'm LotusF1 supporter at first, but i do want to see merc do best as lewis is moving there and also to gift schumi a good farewell gift. :rolleyes:

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#2202 eronrules

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:13

each year justification, very bad competitiveness car.. In terms of the Rules no reason to leap in 2013 .. But who can guarantee that Mercdes make a big step forward in 2014 and become a leader? there are no guarantees.


meaning we have to endure another year of mercedes W(oefull)-04. but if they can't sort out aero next year, what chance is there that they'll do well in 2014?? engine change is big i admit, but aero platform remains same and we all know what aero is these days. worry days ahead for MGP fans :smoking:

#2203 maxx7

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:24

meaning we have to endure another year of mercedes W(oefull)-04. but if they can't sort out aero next year, what chance is there that they'll do well in 2014?? engine change is big i admit, but aero platform remains same and we all know what aero is these days. worry days ahead for MGP fans :smoking:

And I am about it.. But in an interview Newey said that 2014 will be an increasingly important engine. Because aerodynamics will cut again

#2204 Timstr11

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:32

that was at the start of the season ... have you seen the medium/high speed layout of both COTA and india?? or the 90 deg off cambered slow speed corners that requieres good traction??? W03 chews up tire like a drug addict on coke ... and they dont' have good high/medium speed balance. so i'm assuming 8th/9th at best in race result if they are lucky.

i may sound like a doom monger or gloating a bit cause i'm LotusF1 supporter at first, but i do want to see merc do best as lewis is moving there and also to gift schumi a good farewell gift. :rolleyes:

The problem was never cured to my knowledge.

Traction has always been decent.

#2205 Timstr11

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:37

meaning we have to endure another year of mercedes W(oefull)-04. but if they can't sort out aero next year, what chance is there that they'll do well in 2014?? engine change is big i admit, but aero platform remains same and we all know what aero is these days. worry days ahead for MGP fans :smoking:


Not.

-Low noses
-Narrower front wing.
-Simplified endplates
-Shallower rear wing
-No beam wing
-Single pipe exhaust (so no floor blowing whatsoever).

#2206 eronrules

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:50

Not.

-Low noses
-Narrower front wing.
-Simplified endplates
-Shallower rear wing
-No beam wing
-Single pipe exhaust (so no floor blowing whatsoever).


sorry that i mixed up next years regs with 2014, yep it is a heck of of lot of changes, but the fundamental design of car balance, suspension setup and mechanical grip remains same. i don't deny the huge change in 2014, but i'm yet to see the boffins at brackley produce a fundamentally good car, like lotus E20 for example.

#2207 Boxerevo

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:53

But how this car was so good on China ?

Starting to read this thread from beginning. :up:

Edited by Boxerevo, 16 October 2012 - 19:53.


#2208 TifosiUSA

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:54

Not.

-Low noses
-Narrower front wing.
-Simplified endplates
-Shallower rear wing
-No beam wing
-Single pipe exhaust (so no floor blowing whatsoever).

Sad. Continuing to dumb down the sport.

#2209 Timstr11

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 20:13

sorry that i mixed up next years regs with 2014, yep it is a heck of of lot of changes, but the fundamental design of car balance, suspension setup and mechanical grip remains same. i don't deny the huge change in 2014, but i'm yet to see the boffins at brackley produce a fundamentally good car, like lotus E20 for example.

Now I get it. You're here to gloat. I've lost interest.

#2210 eronrules

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 20:22

Now I get it. You're here to gloat. I've lost interest.


not really, i don't gloat ... :smoking: maybe i'm a bit too pessimistic, i do support mercedes, now even more so that lewis is going there. but i like teams that works on basics of car to improve rather than going for gimmicks, say for example FW34 this year. any ways, well see soon don't we what W05 and W06 is in time :wave:

#2211 ivand911

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 18:53

But how this car was so good on China ?

Starting to read this thread from beginning. :up:

There is nothing left from that car now. Maybe the drivers only. If they do China again now, they will have trouble to get in Q3 and to finish in top10.


#2212 MSchumi

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 06:37

What this team needs is a complete washout lottery to even think about points, let alone another podium.

#2213 KiloWatt

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 20:01

At Suzuka we had two rear different suspension geometries, and we had some other fundamental differences, so we are plugging those things into the programme. But we still want to have a respectable performance for the rest of the year.


I haven't been paying a massive amount of attention, but I didn't see anyone mention this. I assume this wasn't raced?

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103518

Edited by KiloWatt, 18 October 2012 - 20:09.


#2214 BigCHrome

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 21:49

That is horrible. So they are still bringing new updates and doing everything they can to improve the car, and yet they are still going backwards, and fast.

Not.

-Low noses
-Narrower front wing.
-Simplified endplates
-Shallower rear wing
-No beam wing
-Single pipe exhaust (so no floor blowing whatsoever).


Where did you hear about the removal of the beam wing? I would be surprised if they really do that.

#2215 Timstr11

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 05:57

That is horrible. So they are still bringing new updates and doing everything they can to improve the car, and yet they are still going backwards, and fast.



Where did you hear about the removal of the beam wing? I would be surprised if they really do that.

A bit hidden somewhere in this text:
http://scarbsf1.com/...ulation-changes


#2216 Urawa

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 09:28

According to Lauda, Merc will improve from race to race now till the end of the season.
The team is working on a concept, where an entire new car must be built for next year. The current one is just not fast enough...



#2217 korzeniow

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 09:33

According to Lauda, Merc will improve from race to race now till the end of the season.
The team is working on a concept, where an entire new car must be built for next year. The current one is just not fast enough...


I wonder how much of this is PR and how much is the truth.

#2218 Timstr11

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 10:03

According to Lauda, Merc will improve from race to race now till the end of the season.
The team is working on a concept, where an entire new car must be built for next year. The current one is just not fast enough...

Brawn hinted at testing a fundamentally different rear suspension. I wonder if their interlinked rear suspension has been the culprit in not being able to keep the tyre in the optimum temp range.

#2219 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 10:05

According to Lauda, Merc will improve from race to race now till the end of the season.
The team is working on a concept, where an entire new car must be built for next year. The current one is just not fast enough...



Deja vu, 2010 and 2011.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Even if they have the best car in 2013, can they survive the development battle? History says no...

Besides, there are 3-4 stronger teams than them consistently, Red Bull, Mclaren, Ferrari and Renault.

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#2220 eronrules

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 10:05

According to Lauda, Merc will improve from race to race now till the end of the season.
The team is working on a concept, where an entire new car must be built for next year. The current one is just not fast enough...


ah ... the niki lauda motivation upgrade ... should add 0.00000001-0.00000002 second to MGP W03 :rotfl:

#2221 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 13:02

Sad. Continuing to dumb down the sport.

Hardly.

A turbo F1 was not dumb and neither was an Indycar of the 1980s! In the days when there was less difference in the technology of the two classes.

Do you really think a front wing needs to be made of 50 pieces? Enzo would be furious that some bleeding so-called "aerodynamicist" decided upon him or herself to attach a big fat chamber to the exhaust of his engine (greatly reducing horsepower)!

#2222 BigCHrome

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:18

A bit hidden somewhere in this text:
http://scarbsf1.com/...ulation-changes


Interesting. I'm a bit disappointed that there will be no beam wing since it was a clever bit of work but otherwise the 2014 rules sound awesome. Cars will surely have less downforce and be harder to drive. Also it's very good for Merc that aerodynamics will be less important.

Too bad that the new engines will also have less HP because it would've been great to watch our drivers tame what would've been complete beasts.

Also the new shape will be easier on the eyes.

#2223 TifosiUSA

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:35

Hardly.

A turbo F1 was not dumb and neither was an Indycar of the 1980s! In the days when there was less difference in the technology of the two classes.

Do you really think a front wing needs to be made of 50 pieces? Enzo would be furious that some bleeding so-called "aerodynamicist" decided upon him or herself to attach a big fat chamber to the exhaust of his engine (greatly reducing horsepower)!


Ban this, ban that. Simplify this, simplify that. Restrict this, restrict that. Lower the power levels! Cars need to be more green!

You can spin this however you like but F1 is being dumbed down in my opinion.

#2224 BigCHrome

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:19

Ban this, ban that. Simplify this, simplify that. Restrict this, restrict that. Lower the power levels! Cars need to be more green!

You can spin this however you like but F1 is being dumbed down in my opinion.


The choice is either extremely expensive, technologically advanced cars that are extremely dull to watch because they are glued to the track and allow for no passing, OR strategically regulated cars that can pass each other and are difficult for the drivers to race. I think I know which is better for the viewers and the teams.

I agree that the green crap and possibly lower power is dumb but it seems to be what the manufacturers want and the sport can't go on without them.

#2225 Timstr11

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 06:48

The choice is either extremely expensive, technologically advanced cars that are extremely dull to watch because they are glued to the track and allow for no passing, OR strategically regulated cars that can pass each other and are difficult for the drivers to race. I think I know which is better for the viewers and the teams.

I agree that the green crap and possibly lower power is dumb but it seems to be what the manufacturers want and the sport can't go on without them.

Aero will be less complicated or dimbed down so you will, but the powertrains will become much more sophisticated with more electronic control to enable the ERSs to work in harmony. Overall power will be similar to current engines. Overall there will be shift in emphasis from aero to the powertrain.

Edited by Timstr11, 21 October 2012 - 06:49.


#2226 Jejking

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 11:36

The choice is either extremely expensive, technologically advanced cars that are extremely dull to watch because they are glued to the track and allow for no passing, OR strategically regulated cars that can pass each other and are difficult for the drivers to race. I think I know which is better for the viewers and the teams.

I agree that the green crap and possibly lower power is dumb but it seems to be what the manufacturers want and the sport can't go on without them.

What about rev limiters, have you considered them? It's dumbing down, no matter what anyone says.

#2227 Pizdek

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 13:21

What can we expect from India??? Maybe few points from Nico? I really think Schumacher cant score some..

#2228 1Devil1

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 13:37

What can we expect from India??? Maybe few points from Nico? I really think Schumacher cant score some..


Why on earth can't the better driver this year score points if the slower one can? :drunk:

#2229 Pizdek

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 13:45

Why on earth can't the better driver this year score points if the slower one can? :drunk:

In my humble opinion he is very poor driver (on grid) now and I dont wanna be involved in any further discussion about that.

I meant can we expect any upgrades for India? It s four races to go, chances of beeing fourth in CC is still possible..

Edited by Pizdek, 23 October 2012 - 13:47.


#2230 1Devil1

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 13:50

In my humble opinion he is very poor driver (on grid) now and I dont wanna be involved in any further discussion about that.

I meant can we expect any upgrades for India? It s four races to go, chances of beeing fourth in CC is still possible..


A poor driver? Come on... Michael was the better driver in most of the races this year. If you judge him as poor than you must say the same about Nico. :rolleyes:

#2231 Tardis40

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 14:01

Ban this, ban that. Simplify this, simplify that. Restrict this, restrict that. Lower the power levels! Cars need to be more green!

You can spin this however you like but F1 is being dumbed down in my opinion.


They've lost my interest. The only reason I'm still watching is Michael.


#2232 David1976

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 14:02

It would be lovely to see Mercedes as regular race winners in 2013.

Could it happen? YES!

Will it happen? Probably not.

If the expectation is not there and they improve a few percent relative to the competition Lewis could make the difference. Trouble is Lotus are on an upward curve at the same time which puts about 5 teams in reach of race wins next year if all goes to plan, with Red Bull probably taking the lions share.

In my heart of hearts I do not think this years Mercedes F1 car has been that bad. My own opinion is that it has been let down by the drivers. Rosberg hasn't looked that great by any means and a 43 year old driver, even one of Michael's pedigree, is never going to deliver race wins.

Edited by David1976, 23 October 2012 - 14:08.


#2233 BoschKurve

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 14:03

If MGP had been serious about trying to field the best drivers possible, they would have jettisoned Brittney and kept Michael. This season was sort of eye-opening for me personally as Nico hasn't actually looked all that great against Michael period.

#2234 David1976

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 14:04

Ban this, ban that. Simplify this, simplify that. Restrict this, restrict that. Lower the power levels! Cars need to be more green!

You can spin this however you like but F1 is being dumbed down in my opinion.



It's a good job you are not a Rally fan then...

#2235 Sakae

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 17:19

In my humble opinion he is very poor driver (on grid) now and I dont wanna be involved in any further discussion about that.


So you troll and run, hoping to get away with it?

#2236 Schumacher7

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 20:53

In my humble opinion he is very poor driver (on grid) now and I dont wanna be involved in any further discussion about that.

I meant can we expect any upgrades for India? It s four races to go, chances of beeing fourth in CC is still possible..


And yet he beats Rosberg so either Rosberg's shit and they should both **** off back to their yachts or Michael's actually doing well.
Guess we'll find out next year.

#2237 Longtimefan

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 21:11

Quite frankly I hope the team 'crashes and burns' in 2013. After the Farces in the last 3 years.

ie minimum points and no podiums.

(and no, before anyone rants at me, its not aimed at the drivers, I wish them no ill feelings, I hope they both have a safe season)


#2238 amppatel

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 21:43

Quite frankly I hope the team 'crashes and burns' in 2013. After the Farces in the last 3 years.

ie minimum points and no podiums.

(and no, before anyone rants at me, its not aimed at the drivers, I wish them no ill feelings, I hope they both have a safe season)


Have some faith... a team with this much money cannot be being beaten by FI and other teams without it being on purpose!

#2239 Kingshark

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:43

Apart from China (dominant) and Monaco (arguably fastest).. Mercedes have had the 8th fastest car all season, with only a few flashes of hope here and there. I have no idea how they are 5th in the constructors championship. IMO both drivers have done a great job in a laughing stock of a car.

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#2240 exmayol

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 06:08

Apart from China (dominant) and Monaco (arguably fastest).. Mercedes have had the 8th fastest car all season, with only a few flashes of hope here and there. I have no idea how they are 5th in the constructors championship. IMO both drivers have done a great job in a laughing stock of a car.


By no meas they are 8th car overal. Recently - perhaps, but through they year definitely not. I think overal decline distorts the real picture and last races hurt too much. They have started the year strong and even with tire wear / operating window issues they were in a position to score plenty of points. NR in fact succeeded despite few incognito drives in Australia and Malaysia. MSC was less lucky due to reliability.

#2241 Disgrace

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:22

Apart from China (dominant) and Monaco (arguably fastest).. Mercedes have had the 8th fastest car all season, with only a few flashes of hope here and there. I have no idea how they are 5th in the constructors championship. IMO both drivers have done a great job in a laughing stock of a car.


Nonsense. They should be a much more comfortable fifth in the WCC if it wasn't for hopeless unreliability on Schumi's car earlier in the season. On pace, they are overall fifth but have underperformed massively in terms of development, which is sad to see as they looked to get that right last year after struggles in '09 and '10.

Edited by Disgrace, 24 October 2012 - 07:23.


#2242 Pizdek

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:30

So you troll and run, hoping to get away with it?

Im just answering to him like I m answering to you now and sticking on topic.

Proper ban for you couse youre trolling fanboy and offtopicing in Mercedes topic.

#2243 Raelene

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:16

according to Lauda - they are re-designing next year's car as this year's car was simply too slow

yallaf1.com

#2244 Obi Offiah

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:42

according to Lauda - they are re-designing next year's car as this year's car was simply too slow

yallaf1.com

You you mean the design for the 2013 challenger (probably started around June, July), was a complete redesign in comparison to this years car or that Mercedes are having to scrap their initial 2013 design?

#2245 Timstr11

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:48

You you mean the design for the 2013 challenger (probably started around June, July), was a complete redesign in comparison to this years car or that Mercedes are having to scrap their initial 2013 design?

http://www.yallaf1.c...design-for-2013

Nothing about scrapping. Just that it will be a different concept.

#2246 JDo

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:29

If I'm honest, I cringed when I read this. For Mercs sake, I hope they get it right. Everyone else is carrying through info into '13, but if the W04 is birthed poorly, it could be season over.

#2247 Kvothe

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:35

Nonsense. They should be a much more comfortable fifth in the WCC if it wasn't for hopeless unreliability on Schumi's car earlier in the season. On pace, they are overall fifth but have underperformed massively in terms of development, which is sad to see as they looked to get that right last year after struggles in '09 and '10.

:up:

#2248 Kingshark

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 13:33

To verify what has previously been rumored on this thread.

""Mercedes designing ‘completely new’ 2013 car says Lauda – Mercedes is working on a “completely new car” for the 2013 Formula One season, Niki Lauda has revealed. We are working on a concept for a completely new car. The current one is simply not fast enough,” he said.”" Source RTL

#2249 TifosiUSA

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 13:57

They've lost my interest. The only reason I'm still watching is Michael.

You're not the only one.

#2250 BetaVersion

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 14:21

Nonsense. They should be a much more comfortable fifth in the WCC if it wasn't for hopeless unreliability on Schumi's car earlier in the season. On pace, they are overall fifth but have underperformed massively in terms of development, which is sad to see as they looked to get that right last year after struggles in '09 and '10.


Equally nonsense. You're just seeing one side of it.

Yes. Schumacher should have scored way more points but equally should have the Sauber(6th in WCC) if they had better luck/driving in lot's of races where the car could have had more podiums or even win.

I remember in Valencia, only Vettel and Grosjean had better pace than Kobayashi and both retired. In China they could've scored lot's of points too if Koba hadn't screwed his start and Perez had better strategy/race unfolding. Sergio was being held by Button/Kimi/Lewis train during first stint but then they screwed their strategy and couldn't get a good result out of a fast car, once again. Spa needs no comment. You could also claim Silvestone was a good race for Sauber to score some more precious points as Perez was faster than everybody else, bar Alonso and Red Bulls. Perez also thrown away good points in Suzuka and etc etc

The bottom line is that Mercedes was no way overall the 5th team, ON PACE, during whole calendar.

PS: Plus, Mercedes also benefited from other teams bad luck in Valencia, Spa and other tracks where they didn't have that much pace. For instace too, I think Nico's result in Bahrain and Singapore was more down to other faster cars having bad races as well.

Edited by BetaVersion, 24 October 2012 - 14:24.