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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2251 black magic

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 23:14

if they are genuinely redesigning then lewis may as well learn how to garden causing he aint going to be troubling the scorers much.

after a while the piffle from this team and in their previous incarnations makes you just laugh.

why dont one of us have a bash - couldnt do worse - or maybe they buy a sauber 2012 and pick it apart. better starting point.

frankly it reeks of a poorly organised and lead team and that rests with Ross, also clearly under budget and clearly if they had real aspirations then they will need to overspend like red bull ( sorry - officially come inside the guidelines if you take Horner seriously - and I dont for one minute)

sorry but this all resembles a slow train crash and will be of the sporting comebacks if they team were to win a championship in 2 years and the chances of that?

lewis as talented as he is has not yet demonstarted that team galvanising trait, none of the deisgners ahs an Adrian Newey or Rory Borne track record, Ross is no Jean todt, budget clearly limited, strarting form over a second a lap behind and probably more

frankly - other than lewis speed I cant think of a single encouraging feature with this team - hell its not even as if the gearbox bolted to a mercedes engine hasnt had its share of problems ...

maybe the mercedes engine is the only other redeeming feature but that would have to be it. 2 separate design teams - barmy , niki - great guy but team dynamo - I'm sorry - anyone remeber the success of Jaguar?...

just laughable the whole thing sadly

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#2252 Kvothe

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 23:18

if they are genuinely redesigning then lewis may as well learn how to garden causing he aint going to be troubling the scorers much.

after a while the piffle from this team and in their previous incarnations makes you just laugh.


Well Lotus managed to do it quite well, and the guy who was their head of aero is now in that same job role at Mercedes.



#2253 Sakae

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 01:47

... budget clearly limited, strarting form over a second a lap behind and probably more...

If one compares Mercedes' budget to RBR (as a benchmark performance team), than yes, spending seems considerably lower, yet what are the implications of it? On the other side, Sauber seems performing comparatively well with their design, giving Mercedes some minor headaches, and guess what, on lower budget yet. What I am getting out of it is, that Stuttgart is most likely not getting their money worth from Brackley; at least not yet. One day lower budget might be an issue, but with current level of resources available to them, Brackley can (or should be able to) do better. I would be not surprised to find that some people within the organization are aware of it, and it is up to management really (Ross/Fry?) to demonstrate at home office how lack of funds are holding them back from the target "Best of Nothing". Throwing money at the problem can wait.

#2254 Kompressor

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 19:55

A trouble free start to the weekend. No real problems as of yet.

#2255 exmayol

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 20:35

A trouble free start to the weekend. No real problems as of yet.


Except that MSC is back to 2010 form, unless he and NR did something completely different or there were other resons for existing gaps.

#2256 Longtimefan

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 21:12

Except that MSC is back to 2010 form, unless he and NR did something completely different or there were other resons for existing gaps.


or he has substandard materials to work with.

I said when he announced his retirement that all the work/development would be focused on Britney and Schumi would have an even bigger dog of a car.

Watch this space.


#2257 Szoelloe

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 21:42

Equally nonsense. You're just seeing one side of it.

Yes. Schumacher should have scored way more points but equally should have the Sauber(6th in WCC) if they had better luck/driving in lot's of races where the car could have had more podiums or even win.

I remember in Valencia, only Vettel and Grosjean had better pace than Kobayashi and both retired. In China they could've scored lot's of points too if Koba hadn't screwed his start and Perez had better strategy/race unfolding. Sergio was being held by Button/Kimi/Lewis train during first stint but then they screwed their strategy and couldn't get a good result out of a fast car, once again. Spa needs no comment. You could also claim Silvestone was a good race for Sauber to score some more precious points as Perez was faster than everybody else, bar Alonso and Red Bulls. Perez also thrown away good points in Suzuka and etc etc

The bottom line is that Mercedes was no way overall the 5th team, ON PACE, during whole calendar.

PS: Plus, Mercedes also benefited from other teams bad luck in Valencia, Spa and other tracks where they didn't have that much pace. For instace too, I think Nico's result in Bahrain and Singapore was more down to other faster cars having bad races as well.


BS. The Sauber has been hugely flattered by this year's junk rubber. They were are only fast in race circumstances, because of the delta time the car is capable of. As soon as the sharp end of the grid caught up with the pirellis, at least as much as it is possible, now that they all admitted to it - bar the Silver Barrow, of course, Sauber lost the ground they seemed to have, and fell back to their rightful place. That car IS decent, but trying to fetishize it is kind of sick, really.


#2258 exmayol

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 01:14

or he has substandard materials to work with.

I said when he announced his retirement that all the work/development would be focused on Britney and Schumi would have an even bigger dog of a car.

Watch this space.


I was actually sarcastic about 2010 form. I share the concern of MSC potentially not being given enough attention anymore.

#2259 George Costanza

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 01:49

To verify what has previously been rumored on this thread.

""Mercedes designing ‘completely new’ 2013 car says Lauda – Mercedes is working on a “completely new car” for the 2013 Formula One season, Niki Lauda has revealed. We are working on a concept for a completely new car. The current one is simply not fast enough,” he said.”" Source RTL



We heard that before...


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#2260 rog

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:33

No lap for Rosberg? What a shit strategy, well done. P7 was possible today.

#2261 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:39

No lap for Rosberg? What a shit strategy, well done. P7 was possible today.


Saving tyres. The cars like to eat them big style.



#2262 revlec

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:42

No lap for Rosberg? What a shit strategy, well done. P7 was possible today.

:up:

#2263 MSCDesign

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 10:02

or he has substandard materials to work with.

I said when he announced his retirement that all the work/development would be focused on Britney and Schumi would have an even bigger dog of a car.

Watch this space.


:up: Exactly. It's logical.
I'm not even surpised by the gap...

#2264 1Devil1

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 10:04

No lap for Rosberg? What a shit strategy, well done. P7 was possible today.


I tought the same he was on fire in q2. he did his best lap in the first round of q2 with vettel and didn't need to improve like all the others. why did they think nothing was left?

#2265 ivand911

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 13:26

They probably think that they don't have pace to fight Lotus,Sauber and Williams. So, why bother? Tomorrow start will be nice with Maldo, RG and Senna company.
In this year F1 it doesn't matter where you start if you have pace. Check STR last race. MGP guys will have to worry from guys behind, not who is in front.

Edited by ivand911, 27 October 2012 - 13:32.


#2266 BetaVersion

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 18:52

BS. The Sauber has been hugely flattered by this year's junk rubber. They were are only fast in race circumstances, because of the delta time the car is capable of. As soon as the sharp end of the grid caught up with the pirellis, at least as much as it is possible, now that they all admitted to it - bar the Silver Barrow, of course, Sauber lost the ground they seemed to have, and fell back to their rightful place. That car IS decent, but trying to fetishize it is kind of sick, really.


Sauber car is very bad in mech grip and because most tracks are full of hairpins and etc, they rarely can show their very good aerodynamics. In Barcelona Perez qualified 4th and Koba, who was faster than him in Q2, couldn't take part in Q3 to maybe put it higher. In Silverstone the quali was on wet conditions, so they couldn't show their true pace. Then, Spa and Suzuka which are full of high speed corners, saw Kobayashi qualify 2nd and 3rd. Let's also remember that Kobayashi qualified 4th in China

When the track suits their car, they are very fast even in qualifying and FOR SURE faster then Mercedes in qualifying or race in aero demanding tracks.

I would say even that only Red Bull and Mclaren are better at such tracks. Sauber, Lotus and Ferrari then comes after it.

But the whole of the discussion, which is obviously focused on Mercedes in this thread, is that Mercedes didn't have performance of 5th team overall in the year. They had very good performances in China and Monaco but that's it.

There were also some early qualifying good results from there but that's because they are agressive with their tires which makes them extract a lot of grip from them over one lap to then be in trouble for the race.

The tire thing that you love to say about Sauber works both ways. It can also apply to a few somewhat glory run qualifyings from Mercedes like Australia, Malaysia and etc. When they(Mercedes) set their car to make the tires last longer, then the car becomes very slow in qualifying.

The same thing repeated over and over about Sauber, just in reverse. Sauber could also use more agressive set up to qualify better but then they would lose their race pace advantadge.

The Mercedes car is low draggy, have good mechanical grip and a great engine and that pretty much is their pros. They are really back on the aerodynamics race and if they don't improve on it for next year, this year's luck 5th might not repeat next year, albeit they will have better drivers than all other midfielders next year, so thinking better, yeah, they might get it again relying on the drivers

Edited by BetaVersion, 27 October 2012 - 18:57.


#2267 Szoelloe

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 19:19

Sauber car is very bad in mech grip and because most tracks are full of hairpins and etc, they rarely can show their very good aerodynamics. In Barcelona Perez qualified 4th and Koba, who was faster than him in Q2, couldn't take part in Q3 to maybe put it higher. In Silverstone the quali was on wet conditions, so they couldn't show their true pace. Then, Spa and Suzuka which are full of high speed corners, saw Kobayashi qualify 2nd and 3rd. Let's also remember that Kobayashi qualified 4th in China

When the track suits their car, they are very fast even in qualifying and FOR SURE faster then Mercedes in qualifying or race in aero demanding tracks.

I would say even that only Red Bull and Mclaren are better at such tracks. Sauber, Lotus and Ferrari then comes after it.

But the whole of the discussion, which is obviously focused on Mercedes in this thread, is that Mercedes didn't have performance of 5th team overall in the year. They had very good performances in China and Monaco but that's it.

There were also some early qualifying good results from there but that's because they are agressive with their tires which makes them extract a lot of grip from them over one lap to then be in trouble for the race.

The tire thing that you love to say about Sauber works both ways. It can also apply to a few somewhat glory runs qualifying from Mercedes like Australia, Malaysia and etc. When they set the car to make the tires last longer, then the car becomes very slow in qualifying.

The same thing repeat over and over about Sauber, just in reverse. Sauber could also use more agressive set up to qualify better but then they would lose their race pace advantadge.

The Mercedes car is low draggy, have good mechanical grip and a great engine and that pretty much is their pros. They are really back on the aerodynamics race and if they don't improve on it for next year, this year's luck 5th might not repeat next year, albeit they will have better drivers than other midfielders next year, so thinking better, yeah, they might get it again relying on the drivers


Mercedes has been an embarrassment. To themselves, to their drivers, to their fans. the way they have under-performed this season is worthy of a backmarker, whatever the reasons were. I still think they have been caught out big time by the Pirellis, but the inability to solve that problem is shocking, and undefendable, especially the way they communicated it. Basically, I am not saying Sauber does not deserve to be in front of Merc on merit, because even if they had a marginally faster car than Sauber, they were unable to produce the quality a top team should. They were sub-standard in every aspect of the word. It is very hard to keep rooting for them, and this end of the season squirm they are coming up with is quite demoralizing for me, frankly.


#2268 Sakae

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 01:42

Mercedes has been an embarrassment. To themselves, to their drivers, to their fans. the way they have under-performed this season is worthy of a backmarker, whatever the reasons were. I still think they have been caught out big time by the Pirellis, but the inability to solve that problem is shocking, and undefendable, especially the way they communicated it. Basically, I am not saying Sauber does not deserve to be in front of Merc on merit, because even if they had a marginally faster car than Sauber, they were unable to produce the quality a top team should. They were sub-standard in every aspect of the word. It is very hard to keep rooting for them, and this end of the season squirm they are coming up with is quite demoralizing for me, frankly.

I wonder how much adrift from you Michael was in June when his option came up for a signature.

#2269 BetaVersion

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 04:16

Mercedes has been an embarrassment. To themselves, to their drivers, to their fans. the way they have under-performed this season is worthy of a backmarker, whatever the reasons were. I still think they have been caught out big time by the Pirellis, but the inability to solve that problem is shocking, and undefendable, especially the way they communicated it. Basically, I am not saying Sauber does not deserve to be in front of Merc on merit, because even if they had a marginally faster car than Sauber, they were unable to produce the quality a top team should. They were sub-standard in every aspect of the word. It is very hard to keep rooting for them, and this end of the season squirm they are coming up with is quite demoralizing for me, frankly.

:up:

I was pointing out just that with that post. Mercedes is not even that much deserving of a 5th in WCC.

Disgrace had a point that MSC could've scored much more points but Mercedes probably profited even more with other teams misfortunes, mistakes and bad driving

He was trying to say the bash towards Mercedes wasn't that deserving but I'm with you in this one. This really wasn't a good year.

#2270 BigCHrome

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 04:23

The car was decent enough until about Silverstone, when their lack of upgrades and especially exhausts development made them lose ground to the others.

#2271 ivand911

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:15

Nico hope for top 8, there is nothing more to be said.

#2272 RedBaron

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:07

No points all round, bad race for Schumacher which he never had a chance to recover from because the car was utterly dreadful.

Rosberg... no faults, again a rubbish car gave him nothing to fight with. Would have been better if they just had not turned up.

#2273 Massa_f1

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:11

No points all round, bad race for Schumacher which he never had a chance to recover from because the car was utterly dreadful.

Rosberg... no faults, again a rubbish car gave him nothing to fight with. Would have been better if they just had not turned up.



Yes Nico the car is really closing the gap. I am sure he gets his dreams mixed up with reality hahah. Pathetic race from the team. As usual.

#2274 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:11

No points since Singapore.....

Depsite at least one car finishing all the races since.

That is how poor they are.




#2275 Fildischum

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:13

This is just pathetic... Period... Closing the gap to mclaren my a$&... Im speechless..

Edited by Fildischum, 28 October 2012 - 11:14.


#2276 rog

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:15

At least faster than Toro Rosso this time lol. What a bad race pace, especially the first sector. Sauber drivers are a joke, every race one driver failed. That's a good thing for Mercedes.

#2277 DutchCruijff

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:33

I absolutely despise this team and those who have tried to defend them are utter tw*ts.

#2278 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:38

Hard to believe I'm actually looking back at 2010 and 2011 yearningly.

Edited by PoliFanAthic, 28 October 2012 - 11:38.


#2279 Vic Vega

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:44

according to Lauda - they are re-designing next year's car as this year's car was simply too slow

yallaf1.com

Wait, where did I hear that before?

Is Aldo heading the re-designing process? If he is, here come the good times, 2005 style. Ooooh yeahh!

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#2280 BernieEc

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:48

I really fear for what Hamilton has walked into........yikes......this thread is even darker and gloomier than the McLaren dungeon

#2281 Masenco

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:05

I really fear for what Hamilton has walked into........yikes......this thread is even darker and gloomier than the McLaren dungeon


Lol since the announcement ive been popping in here every now and again...and then hastily popping back out.
We'll try and get the positivity flowing next season :cool:

#2282 SparkPlug

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:32

This was a car that started out with so much promise at the start of the year, starting regularly in the top 5 and also notching up the win and the odd podium in the first half of the year. The way they have fallen behind in the development race this year is really really worrying. I am struggling to remember too many instances this has happened in the past 25 years(i.e. potential front runner to rank lower midfield car in 10 odd races).


They seem to have a systemic problem. I wonder how long the Mercedes board will persist with this substandard effort. This cant be helping their brand image in anyway.

#2283 Kompressor

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:41

Designers like Adrian Newey realize that speed and grip in high speed corners is the goal in F1. I think Mercedes have finally realized that their concept was wrong. They had decided that qualifying performance was more important than race performance. I think their first mistake was the aggressive drs. It was so aggressive that they couldn't get the airflow to reattach. The next result of their design philosophy was the ddrs front wing.
They need to get back to basics.

#2284 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:14

Designers like Adrian Newey realize that speed and grip in high speed corners is the goal in F1. I think Mercedes have finally realized that their concept was wrong. They had decided that qualifying performance was more important than race performance. I think their first mistake was the aggressive drs. It was so aggressive that they couldn't get the airflow to reattach. The next result of their design philosophy was the ddrs front wing.
They need to get back to basics.


I agree. The entire concept is just fundamentally flawed. The DDRS de-stabilises the rear and eats the tyres. To counter it, they had to take downforce off to match the front and rear...though all it meant was a slower car that just ate the tyres slightly slower.

Then these updates have reduced tyre wear....the the point where they don't actually get any temperatures into the tyres :lol: and an even slower car.

In effect, the entire concept and premise for building the car was flawed; too much reliance on the DDRS system (it only worked well ONCE, in China, and even then they threw 18 points away :rolleyes: ) which has also been hampered by reliability (see Bahrain and Canada for MS). I keep repeating myself, but the team has not been able to field two reliable cars at the same time on the same track and if they do they'll mess it up through strategy or botched pit stops. It is very sad to see and fundamentally innate to the team and its ethos. Why and how do they keep messing up? Lack of QUALITY across the spectrum (design room, mechanics, engineers and even DRIVERS who are unmotivated) has resulted in this.

Their decline started mid 2009 when it took Red Bull 8 races to catch them up, DESPITE Honda/Brawn having a further 6 months development time over the rest of the field. Again, a worrying trend that is now in its 4th year (it probably has been malignant since the early BAR days, but then I or anyone else probably didn't give too much of a shit to notice).


Anyway, that is my rant.



#2285 Pits

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:22

Remarkable reverse development program from Merc.
Every weekend they are 5 tenths slower...

How is this possible, must be hard on the drivers for sure...

#2286 boldhakka

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:30

They did win a race and snatched pole at Monaco. I agree that the car has a very poor baseline. I hope they've sort of started from scratch for 2013 because salvaging this design is looking impossible.

Hamilton must be pretty worried about next year. It doesn't do a driver's mental health any good sitting in a car that's this slow and unreliable.

#2287 SeanValen

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:48

Remember when Schumacher flew to Paul Richard to watch the upgraded merc for Singapore, then crossed his fingers for that weekend. The big upgrade.

I don't like to say it, but it feels as if parts were made and rushed to possibly either make him sign a longer contract or help lure Hamilton, the complete silence of the team apart from driver comments is grim.




#2288 Pits

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:53

Remember when Schumacher flew to Paul Richard to watch the upgraded merc for Singapore, then crossed his fingers for that weekend. The big upgrade.

I don't like to say it, but it feels as if parts were made and rushed to possibly either make him sign a longer contract or help lure Hamilton, the complete silence of the team apart from driver comments is grim.



I would love to be a fly on the wall behind the scenes at Merc, to see what is really going on.

#2289 Scotracer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:16

I'm done for the rest of this season. Wont bother watching the last few races, it will only painful to see Michael's career end with a car like this.

#2290 spacekid

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:25

I don't know where Mercedes go from here.

I've seen a lot on this board in recent weeks from some Hamilton fans saying that the problem is Schumi and Nico, and Lewis could get podiums/wins with this car.

Given that I don't think Merc are capable of getting a decent car together for next season the only upshot of this whole mess is I am really looking to see what Lewis can do with it.

#2291 weston

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:21

Brackley is surely not a happy camp. It looks like there is no team leader there.
Is Brawn about to retire?
What has Haug done in the past few months?
Has Schumacher refused (or accepted) a management role at Mercedes?
Has Lauda got the Clean Sheet Survival Kit?

#2292 Vic Vega

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:21

I would love to be a fly on the wall behind the scenes at Merc, to see what is really going on.

Let me help you:

Posted Image

#2293 apoka

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:26

I'm done for the rest of this season. Wont bother watching the last few races, it will only painful to see Michael's career end with a car like this.

It's painful indeed. 0 points in the last 3 weekends and not much chance for Michael to have a somewhat decent end of his career. For Rosberg, it seems only a matter of time until he will go from 7th to 9th in WDC.

I don't know what could possible have caused the huge gap they have to the best teams. They went from disappointing to pathetic over the last races.


#2294 Pits

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:48

Let me help you:

:rotfl:

#2295 Sakae

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:03

I don't know where Mercedes go from here.

I've seen a lot on this board in recent weeks from some Hamilton fans saying that the problem is Schumi and Nico, and Lewis could get podiums/wins with this car.

Given that I don't think Merc are capable of getting a decent car together for next season the only upshot of this whole mess is I am really looking to see what Lewis can do with it.

Hamilton has trouble to handle McLaren right now, what makes then anyone to think that Mercedes will be any easier if their current form persists?

#2296 stanga

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:05

Hamilton has trouble to handle McLaren right now, what makes then anyone to think that Mercedes will be any easier if their current form persists?


I think Hamilton handles the current McLaren quite well, going on today's evidence. And I think he will not be expecting an overnight miracle next year.

Rome wasn't built in a day. I'll keep an open mind.

#2297 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:20

I would love to be a fly on the wall behind the scenes at Merc, to see what is really going on.



Posted Image

#2298 Sakae

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:23

I think Hamilton handles the current McLaren quite well, going on today's evidence. And I think he will not be expecting an overnight miracle next year.

Rome wasn't built in a day. I'll keep an open mind.

Well, going on little longer evidence than just of today, I disagree. (End).

#2299 Sakae

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:25

I would love to be a fly on the wall behind the scenes at Merc, to see what is really going on.

I had similar thoughts, but in reality, how many German nationals transplanted from Stuttgart are really working at Brackley, do you know?

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#2300 Kingshark

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 19:19

Hard to believe I'm actually looking back at 2010 and 2011 yearningly.

I agree. Looking back from the car they've made this season, the W01 and W02 weren't bad at all.

Edited by Kingshark, 28 October 2012 - 19:19.