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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2351 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:55

Lauda told bild.de: Mercedes car runs interconnected suspension to control heave dampers, but it's very complicated and track dependent - taht's the main issue of the car.

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#2352 RedBaron

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:16

I wish the DDRS was banned at the start of the season... could have been a blessing in hindsight.

#2353 Timstr11

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:23

I wish the DDRS was banned at the start of the season... could have been a blessing in hindsight.

:confused: What's your argument for that? It's the one thing that worked well from the beginning.

As has been mentioned, Lauda has hinted the biggest problem is the complex suspension. So it's not Coanda, It's not aero, it's the passive interlinked dampers which are hard to tune.


#2354 RedBaron

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:49

:confused: What's your argument for that? It's the one thing that worked well from the beginning.

As has been mentioned, Lauda has hinted the biggest problem is the complex suspension. So it's not Coanda, It's not aero, it's the passive interlinked dampers which are hard to tune.


My argument is just based on Brawn saying they may ditch it for next season (the fact that's even being considered says a lot). I'm sure it has worked ok for them this season, but I guess developing other areas would have worked much better...

Mercedes has conceded that it may elect not to race with a passive double-DRS next season, thanks to the difficulties it has experienced in getting the system to work so far this year.

The Brackley-based team has tried the concept during Friday practice at several recent races, but has already ruled out racing it in the final three grands prix of the year.

Team principal Ross Brawn admits that there does not appear to be as big a benefit from the system - which stalls the rear wing at high-speed for a straight-line speed boost – as the team had originally hoped.

If further work on the device this season and over the winter does not yield more of an advantage, then there is a chance the team may elect not to feature it on its 2013 car.

When asked about the benefits of the design, Brawn said: "It is quite acute, and quite difficult to provide an overall performance gain.

"Obviously having that sort of device in the middle of the rear wing means you lose some overall performance which you hope to get back with the benefits that come from the device, but at the moment it is pretty neutral to be honest.

"We will carry on with it, and it is not costing us much in terms of track time because we run it for a few laps to get the data on a Friday morning.

"Whether it will see the light of day in anger, I don't know."


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103890

Edited by RedBaron, 31 October 2012 - 10:52.


#2355 mlsnoopy

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:51

Stanga

Hamilton has never had a dog of a car

But I agree he has driven great this year


Mp4-24

#2356 Timstr11

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:03

My argument is just based on Brawn saying they may ditch it for next season (the fact that's even being considered says a lot). I'm sure it has worked ok for them this season, but I guess developing other areas would have worked much better...



http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103890

DDRS is something else and has been banned for next season.

Brawn is talking about the passive drag reduction device which has only been tested so far.

Edited by Timstr11, 31 October 2012 - 11:03.


#2357 Lamag

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:25

Yes Timstr11.

I think there is some confusion on the press about the concept of the Double DRS of Mercedes and the F-Duct system from Lotus. Both systems are very different.

#2358 KiloWatt

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 13:59

Lauda told bild.de: Mercedes car runs interconnected suspension to control heave dampers, but it's very complicated and track dependent - taht's the main issue of the car.


I wonder if this is the whole story, however. It doesn't, IMHO, explain the shit performance on high speed corners.

#2359 Timstr11

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 14:44

I wonder if this is the whole story, however. It doesn't, IMHO, explain the shit performance on high speed corners.

That was explained quite a while ago. Brawn has admitted himself they deliberately optimized the the aero of the car more around medium and low speed corners, because those corners are predominant. They clearly went too far in that direction.

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#2360 RedBaron

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 15:17

Yes Timstr11.

I think there is some confusion on the press about the concept of the Double DRS of Mercedes and the F-Duct system from Lotus. Both systems are very different.


I was definitely confused. Thanks for the clarification!

#2361 Boxerevo

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 15:40

Lewis "tyres have gone guys"

Engineer "Lewis...it's only lap 1. We have another 2 laps before we hit the cliff"

:rotfl:

Hope not. :smoking:


#2362 Shambolic

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 17:34

That was explained quite a while ago. Brawn has admitted himself they deliberately optimized the the aero of the car more around medium and low speed corners, because those corners are predominant. They clearly went too far in that direction.


So far in fact that at one of the slow corner tracks they still had diabolical pace - Because said track had the wrong type of slow corners...

#2363 black magic

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 19:55

yeah it was the curvy bit that they struggled with. they had the slow bit nailed.

who could have forseen that

#2364 rallye3

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 20:11

Lewis being realistic about things - well next year anyway
http://www.talksport...le-hopes-184265?

#2365 jav

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 18:05

This is a sinking ship.

2010 was a disappointment (W01). Then it was said 2011 (W02) was the year to challenge at the front because W01 was rushed and fundamentally flawed.

2011 failed to meet expectations and was, like 2010, abandoned early. They got a little smarter in 2011 and said 2012 would be "better" but "2013" would be the championship fighting year because it was too late for Bell/Costa to have significant effect on 2012 (W03).

2012 is here..the goal to improve on 4th.... not so much. In fact, they have about 1/2 the points of the 4th place team and are more likely to lose a current spot to Sauber than to gain one from Lotus.

Now Lewis is skipping over 2103, talking 2014-2015.... obviously aware that predictions for 2013 are even less reliable than Schumachers W03.

Their website eerily makes no mention of the "dream design team" and now their "new star driver" is predicting failure after agreeing to come on?

What the heck was Lewis thinking? You traded plane fare on the Concord for a first class ticket on the Titanic... AFTER it the iceburg???

Look on the bright side, there's plenty of deck chairs, the band is playing wonderfully... almost believeing the ship really is unsinkable.

Edited by jav, 01 November 2012 - 18:07.


#2366 Szoelloe

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 22:30

This is a sinking ship.


Frustration of any level is justified after this season, yes. Anger at the way they spoiled and spit on MS's comeback, and possibly fxxxed up a highly promising young driver's career, absolutely. But it is definitely not a sinking ship. They got rid of Bigois, now they should get rid of half the track team remaining from the cursed Honda era before next season, that's a piece of cake, not affecting anything design-related, so they have time to do it. They should be much better next season. LH's timing is perfect to reap the benefits of a refurbished team. Still they can all go and stuff themselves, I am still seething too.

edit: my stomach churns every time I see a merc on the street, I just can't help it.

Edited by Szoelloe, 01 November 2012 - 22:32.


#2367 ViMaMo

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:28

Funny that Loic seems to be headed to Ferrari, according to reports.

#2368 BetaVersion

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:32

I think he is a great driver (behind Vettel and Alonso). But I can't deny I don't like the hype around him. He did nothing special to be rated good as the british media and fans here in this specific forum want us to believe. There is a large opportunity he can get his act together (Consistency, no team blaming, etc.) at Mercedes and if this happened I will praise him first. But Rosberg is seen as journeyman and I don't know why he never had a car like Lewis. So I see no clear advantage for the Hamster in this team battle. I am looking forward and believe Rosberg could out qualify him quit often. His q2 in India was superb.


rather okayish as I saw it. MSC that underperformed because he only repeated his FP3 pace.

It's funny that from failure to failure, there is always things pumping on media with some Mercedes guy claiming that they identified the problem with the car. The speechs just keeps being repeated

@Ivan, even firing the main aero guy, I don't trust this little team to make a decent car next year. Hopefully they come up with a even bigger dog so I can have a reason to laugh next year in F1

#2369 Szoelloe

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:37

Funny that Loic seems to be headed to Ferrari, according to reports.


AFAIK to head up the wind tunnel division.

#2370 seahawk

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 06:31

Lewis will win races in 2013, even with the Mercedes.

#2371 exmayol

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 06:35

Lewis will win races in 2013, even with the Mercedes.


If they build a proper car of course he will and so will Nico.

#2372 ivand911

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:53

Lewis will win races in 2013, even with the Mercedes.

The point is to win with the car now. Not next year. Can he win now? No.

AFAIK to head up the wind tunnel division.

Oh, man. Didn't Ferrari see his work for last 3 years? :drunk:

Edited by ivand911, 02 November 2012 - 07:57.


#2373 jav

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 13:56

.... But it is definitely not a sinking ship.



OK- so they aren't a "sinking ship", they are an F1 team that, year after years, fails to reach their intended destination. Perhaps "floundering ship" is a better metaphore.

I so wanted them to succeed and bought into the "speak softly and carry a big stick" theme. I've come to believe there is no stick. I think MS is leaving because he doesn't beleive there's a stick either. I'll watch to see if anything changes but I expect this Leopards spots won't change much. I believe Lewis made a huge mistake. I would not be suprised if Lewis didn't win a single race next year and he's already laying the ground work for keeping expectations low... the same old MO that exemplifies how this team operates.

So now Lewis has no lofty expectations for 2013 (at least publically). The team isn't exactly brimming with confidence for next year - which makes no sense. They signed a new young "star driver" widely held to be in the top 3, they have an all new car designed with the full weight of the Bell, Costa, Willis, Brawn team.... you'd think they'd be smiling and giddy with confidence. You'd think if things were truely positive, Schumacher would have been eager to sign onto a good year to temper the taste of the 3 bad ones... he wasn't.

None of the above makes sense IF next year was expected to be good. I'm sure they "hope" it's good, but you get the sense that they have no idea or expectation that it will be... just hope. I'm done hoping. I think this team will temper the perceived talent and aspiration of yet another driver.

Yes- I'm bitter. But I don't think I'm wrong.



#2374 1Devil1

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 14:25

plain slow :rolleyes:

#2375 Shiroo

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 14:44

No single lap pace, no race pace (Mercedes was behind top 4 teams, Williams, Force India, Sauber race pace wise). Only Toro Rosso had similar race pace (wow Mercedes fighting in a race with TR, what a thrill). Hopefully they are focused on next year car already, cause if they are updating this POS car, their R&D deparment need to be like worst in F1 (from race winner, to a team that fight TR in race)

#2376 Zava

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 21:46

The point is to win with the car now. Not next year. Can he win now? No.

that is a bit too much to ask, isn't it?

#2377 DS27

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 23:25

They got rid of Bigois, now they should get rid of half the track team remaining from the cursed Honda era before next season, that's a piece of cake, not affecting anything design-related, so they have time to do it.


If only they had done this 3 years ago, and recruited anew, things could have been very different. God, i'm so bitter towards this 'team'.

#2378 Pizdek

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:55

Great car, no doubt! :lol:

The rest is always the same. Rosberg 5th, Schumacher 14th.

At least it wont take long to fix it. :)

#2379 Lamag

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:10

Does anyone know what happened with Schumy during his final lap at Q2? He was almost six tens behind Rosberg.

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#2380 sharo

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 18:22

His race engineer failed at adding 2+2.

#2381 Schumacher7

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 18:49

Great car, no doubt! :lol:

The rest is always the same. Rosberg 5th, Schumacher 14th.

At least it wont take long to fix it. :)

Why's Rosberg 5th?

Also 9-9 in the qualifying battle as well I believe.

#2382 KiloWatt

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:05

For some reason, I just watched the China edit. Comparing that W03 to this one, it almost seems like two different cars. Watch Australia Q3 as well and see how gorgeously this car changed direction. It is especially noticeable on the final turn at albert park. It's not pleasant to say, but this team really let the car down.

I just wonder how this season would have panned out if they decided to focus on aero rather than tyres in their development. I feel a bit like a hypocrite, as I fully supported their decision to focus on tyres and vehemently argued with some about it. But it does seem many were right that it was a (very) big mistake. Perhaps if they'd focused on aero, they would be among the Lotus group of cars.

Circling back to my original remark; watching that chinese race edit affirmed my belief that deep within the W03 is a really good car trying to get out. But it got let down by a team that made the wrong decisions at a crucial time and now it's way way waaay to late to catch up.

#2383 Kompressor

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:11

I can understand why Hamilton is joining Mercedes. McLaren have failed to deliver yet again. He might as well try his luck at Mercedes. I want to know what happened between Karthikeyan and Rosberg. Still waiting for a stewards report.

#2384 alg7_munif

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:30

Hey guys, just trying to find a new home. Afterall, the team can't be any worse than McLaren right now. McLaren 2009 was a dog but at least it was entertaining to watch Lewis fighting the car. For me it is much more disappointing to have a car capable of winning but not finishing the race than having a slower car.

#2385 DS27

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:35

Merc no worse than Mc :drunk:

You will find next year, that being competitive but unreliable is infinitely preferable to being uncompetitive full stop.

#2386 moorsey

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:37

Hey guys, just trying to find a new home. Afterall, the team can't be any worse than McLaren right now. McLaren 2009 was a dog but at least it was entertaining to watch Lewis fighting the car. For me it is much more disappointing to have a car capable of winning but not finishing the race than having a slower car.


I'll agree with that and count me in to the "new home" too.
I'm quietly confident that Lewis knows enough about the Merc future plans [not necessarily next year] to feel excited, confident and welcome. Let's all hope they deliver straight out of the box.

#2387 sanW10

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:54

McLaren getting Lewis ready for MGP :p

#2388 JensonWDC

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:20

Lotus showed them again how to get it done.
Coming back from a small dip, put the Coanda exhaust on and win two races later.

#2389 RedBaron

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:26

Haha you guys need better estate agents! You don't want to make Mercedes your new home. There's damp setting in in the upstair bedrooms and we're worried we might have a serious subsidence issue.

#2390 Shiroo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:45

Lotus showed them again how to get it done.
Coming back from a small dip, put the Coanda exhaust on and win two races later.

Well it just shows how superior Lotus design is to Mercedes one. They have coanda for some time already, had 3 days of tests with it, and still are shitty in race and in quali. I believe, Lotus made simply a better car this year, without any DDRS at the start (later they started to develop it, but it seems they will use it in next season), and had coanda as last. Mercedes on the other hand wanted too much too soon. I believe they thought how superior they are during winter test, and later it was shown that the car is POS. And only China layout + temperature helped them to get a win. The car was never fast.

By the way, Sauber is closing on Mercedes

Edited by Shiroo, 04 November 2012 - 16:46.


#2391 moorsey

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:58

Haha you guys need better estate agents! You don't want to make Mercedes your new home. There's damp setting in in the upstair bedrooms and we're worried we might have a serious subsidence issue.


I know just the man to underpin it and he's good in the damp.  ;)

#2392 Paco

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:01

Sauber closing but unfortunately, not fast enough or enough time at this point to make any difference.

As for Lotus, was nice seeing Kimi get up there and grab a win but don't get ahead of yourselves.. it was one of the GPs with a lottery and seizing the moment and Lotus was made it happen. There's still 4th-5th best..

#2393 moorsey

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:03

Well it just shows how superior Lotus design is to Mercedes one. They have coanda for some time already, had 3 days of tests with it, and still are shitty in race and in quali. I believe, Lotus made simply a better car this year, without any DDRS at the start (later they started to develop it, but it seems they will use it in next season), and had coanda as last. Mercedes on the other hand wanted too much too soon. I believe they thought how superior they are during winter test, and later it was shown that the car is POS. And only China layout + temperature helped them to get a win. The car was never fast.

By the way, Sauber is closing on Mercedes


I agree, but it would seem obvious that they will be using this year's tub to test new ideas for next year. Those ideas can be evaluated but won't necessarily improve this year's car. Ross has pretty much admitted that too much effort was centered on the DDRS when other avenues would have had better payback. That suggests to me that the new Merc will have a different philosophy entirely and will probably be based on a "best of the rest" design template to start with.
Finger crossed but at least, hopefully, I can sit and watch the team develop with less "shooting itself in the foot" than has been the case with McLaren this year.

#2394 Shiroo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:19

I agree, but it would seem obvious that they will be using this year's tub to test new ideas for next year. Those ideas can be evaluated but won't necessarily improve this year's car. Ross has pretty much admitted that too much effort was centered on the DDRS when other avenues would have had better payback. That suggests to me that the new Merc will have a different philosophy entirely and will probably be based on a "best of the rest" design template to start with.
Finger crossed but at least, hopefully, I can sit and watch the team develop with less "shooting itself in the foot" than has been the case with McLaren this year.

ah and one more thing. You will get the guy from Lotus Aero deparment that was involved in E20 design. To be honest, Mercedes atm will have a bunch of great engineers, if they won't make a car capable of podiums regulary it will be really odd... and quite sad.

As for Lotus, was nice seeing Kimi get up there and grab a win but don't get ahead of yourselves.. it was one of the GPs with a lottery and seizing the moment and Lotus was made it happen. There's still 4th-5th best..

well you might be right. But he grabbed that, + he was 7 times on podium (including this win) and Grosjean was few times as well. It's hard to compare this year Mercedes to Lotus. If Grosjean wouldnt be such mistake prone (sadly), Lotus would be now 2nd in WCC ranking probably (90 vs 198 points, raikkonen alone collected more than whole Mercedes team). And in today's race their pace, at least Kimi's was only inferior to Hamilton (and only due to Safety Cars, Alonso had a chance to be so close to him) (tho we need to consider that Vettel probably had pace similar to Hamilton and only 24th position cost him a win today).

It doesnt matter which place you are currently on. Is it 4th or 5th (though I believe for Lotus it is 3rd just right after RBR and McLaren), the results are important. Lotus is in pack with top 3 teams, Kimi is 3rd in WDC, while Mercedes is going backwards since 2010. at the start of the season they were top 5 team definetly, but at the moment, they are inferior to Force India, Williams and Sauber, and usually are fighting vs Toro Rosso (hardly an achievement for brand such as Mercedes).

It is a bit heartbreaking, coz as car manufacturer I rate Mercedes pretty high, but as Formula 1 team they are miserable. With the amount of cash they have, they are going backwards.
This might be also drivers fault, I don't rate MSC as high anymore (he is 43 for god's sake), and Rosberg is rather boring driver (no offence, he is solid, but rather boring driver).

Hamilton will be a big improvement, but hopefully, Mercedes will make a car at least capable of podiums.



PS. It is 4th in row race, without a point for Mercedes

Edited by Shiroo, 04 November 2012 - 17:19.


#2395 MSCDesign

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 23:08

Lewis Hamilton will win at least one race next year. Mark my words.

Team will have 50 millions bigger budget, Lauda already fired some of the employees at the factory. Lauda will be a link between the Brackley and Stuttgart, which means everyting will be reported to Mercedes board and will be under control. The 2013 car and 2014 cars are both already in process. The team had a big restruction in 2012 season, and everything is settled now and prepared for 2013.
Also no more Loic Bigois who was screwing Mercedes for last 3 years! He actally screwed every team in which he came! Mike Elliott is gonna do the job properly now!

Also let me remind you, Schumacher is going to test 2013 car in brazil and no BS here!

#2396 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 23:25

I can understand why Hamilton is joining Mercedes. McLaren have failed to deliver yet again. He might as well try his luck at Mercedes. I want to know what happened between Karthikeyan and Rosberg. Still waiting for a stewards report.

The irony is that it was actually Mercedes' fault that Lewis didn't win today.

#2397 scheivlak

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 23:35

Lewis Hamilton will win at least one race next year. Mark my words.

So they'll be about as good or bad as this year?

:D

#2398 MSCDesign

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 00:41

So they'll be about as good or bad as this year?

:D


You'll see;)

#2399 Tardis40

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:02

Rosberg won one this year, and Schumacher would have been a favorite starting from pole at Monaco. But now, after one "upgrade" after another, they can't even score a point.


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#2400 black magic

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:43

Man start 14 and finish 11 and yes bad luck re extra stop but webber,grosjen,hamilton,hulkenberg,rosberg all failed tofinish and by rights would have beaten michael

Are you having a laff