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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2401 SR388

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:44

Have they stopped development on the 2012 car?

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#2402 Lamag

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:31

Have they stopped development on the 2012 car?


Yes. Stop the development of the car early on has become a trademark of the team.

#2403 SR388

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:37

Sorta sad to seem them finish the season with a whimper.

#2404 Kingshark

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:38

If they stopped developing the WO3 this early, the car they had in China should at the very least still be good enough to score regular points.

I think it's the promising oh-so talked about upgrades and updates on the car that made them fall through the pecking order like a keystone.

#2405 SR388

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:42

If they stopped developing the WO3 this early, the car they had in China should at the very least still be good enough to score regular points.

I think it's the promising oh-so talked about upgrades and updates on the car that made them fall through the pecking order like a keystone.


Honda had that same problem in 07-08 where they found the info they were getting from their wind tunnels was junk and they were going in the wrong direction.

Hopefully the revamp they made to the wind tunnel will help.

#2406 ivand911

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:48

The irony is that it was actually Mercedes' fault that Lewis didn't win today.

Maybe not, I don't know where exactly was the problem, but not everything from fuel system is made by Mercedes. The problem can be in the lines, fuel tank. He was having fuel delivery problem, not engine problem.

Man start 14 and finish 11 and yes bad luck re extra stop but webber,grosjen,hamilton,hulkenberg,rosberg all failed tofinish and by rights would have beaten michael

Are you having a laff

:rotfl: Yes, I have?
By rights as you say Webber should beat Alonso and Button and Lewis and Kimi. Did he? Button by the rights should beat Alonso and Kimi? Did he? Did Massa overtake MS for some laps? No. Did you see how hard was to overtake? The guys failed to finish by their mistake, but that doesn't put them ahead of Michael by "rights". Many of them were just clumsy. MS has bad luck in the race, but he did nothing wrong. By the rights because he is 7 time WDC he should finish ahead of them every time.

Edited by ivand911, 05 November 2012 - 12:03.


#2407 Sakae

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:00

Lotus showed them again how to get it done.
Coming back from a small dip, put the Coanda exhaust on and win two races later.

...might be all of that, and on much lower budget.

#2408 weston

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:53

Have they stopped development on the 2012 car?


Yes, in June. It doesn't stop them from visiting some races and driving a lap or two occasionally, though.
I start to feel sorry for them.

#2409 Timstr11

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:17

I think they're evaluating things for 2013 which are not visible to the eye.

I can imagine that Aldo Costa demands most resources to be directed at 2013, rather than 2012.
He had nothing to do with the design of the W03. He and Elliott surely have a different vision and it's understandable they would want most resources to work towards 2013, rather than wasting time on a car that's not theirs.

In related news: according to motorsport-total.com Bild is reporting Daimler agreed to a 44 million euro budget increase for 2013.
Some of it will be at the cost of the DTM budget.

Edited by Timstr11, 05 November 2012 - 15:17.


#2410 boldhakka

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:57

8th for Rosberg in qualifying is pretty good. The car isn't as bad as some people like to make it out to be.

#2411 boldhakka

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:57

In related news: according to motorsport-total.com Bild is reporting Daimler agreed to a 44 million euro budget increase for 2013.
Some of it will be at the cost of the DTM budget.


Lotus will have reason to worry about this.


#2412 andrewf1

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:11

so Red Bull has a 500 million euro budget...that's just ridiculous, how can you compete against that? no wonder they're opposing the budget cap.

#2413 Shiroo

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:15

Lotus will have reason to worry about this.

well Lotus will have bigger budget as well I assume. 4th position in WCC, more sponsors + maybe titular sponsor. Anyway Mercedes already have more resources and look, they are behind of likes of Sauber atm (maybe not in WCC but at current pace)

#2414 Sakae

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:19

So, how much is it in total for 2013? EUR 200 Mill? All managers should get their bonuses under Christmas tree, maybe even a new driver gets some small pocket change as well. What else will this money buy?

#2415 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:33

Maybe not, I don't know where exactly was the problem, but not everything from fuel system is made by Mercedes. The problem can be in the lines, fuel tank. He was having fuel delivery problem, not engine problem.

Martin Whitmarsh was very clear in blaming Mercedes on the BBC post race show. He said the part hadn't failed for 5 years

#2416 ivand911

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:06

8th for Rosberg in qualifying is pretty good. The car isn't as bad as some people like to make it out to be.

There is difference between qualy and race pace.


#2417 sharo

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:58

In related news: according to motorsport-total.com Bild is reporting Daimler agreed to a 44 million euro budget increase for 2013.
Some of it will be at the cost of the DTM budget.

Does the sum include the new driver salary? And Lauda's too?

#2418 swiniodzik

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 20:58

For some reason, I just watched the China edit. Comparing that W03 to this one, it almost seems like two different cars. Watch Australia Q3 as well and see how gorgeously this car changed direction. It is especially noticeable on the final turn at albert park. It's not pleasant to say, but this team really let the car down.

I just wonder how this season would have panned out if they decided to focus on aero rather than tyres in their development. I feel a bit like a hypocrite, as I fully supported their decision to focus on tyres and vehemently argued with some about it. But it does seem many were right that it was a (very) big mistake. Perhaps if they'd focused on aero, they would be among the Lotus group of cars.

Circling back to my original remark; watching that chinese race edit affirmed my belief that deep within the W03 is a really good car trying to get out. But it got let down by a team that made the wrong decisions at a crucial time and now it's way way waaay to late to catch up.


The car did show some serious pace at the start of the season on several occasions but if we're to believe the reports from the German media which have been linked in here, the design is flawed both aerodynamically (the excessive and inherent under-steer in the long corners) and mechanically (the hydraulically inter-connected suspension being a nightmare to set up properly), so it's no wonder they've had such a roller-coaster ride this year. The decision to concentrate on tyres instead of aero didn't help to cure the matters but it wasn't the root problem for Mercedes.

#2419 black magic

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:29

For what it is worth ivan was criticising mercedes that despite a number of cars that were arguably quicker, the car was only quick enough for 11 maybe 8,9 withiut puncture.

Bottom line is that this car is no longer in top 10 despite having been quick enough for a win.

Senna is now arguably as quick, quicker

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#2420 packapoo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:28

Have they stopped development on the 2012 car?


Are we sure they started?

#2421 Sakae

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:41

If Sauber gets ahead in final points count, that would cost team a few bucks. To certain extend I want Sauber succeed, because it would financially help them, on the other hand, possibility of further decline would have to be psychologically depressing for everyone on board, including team's loyal following. More reasons to continue work on 2012 car.

Edited by Sakae, 06 November 2012 - 06:42.


#2422 KiloWatt

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:55

Are we sure they started?


:lol:

That's hard! But the message is acknowledged loud and clear.

#2423 Shiroo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:16

So Mercedes like every year stops its car development mid year, to be prepared for next year? Then after 1st race it is clear to see that they focused on wrong thing and the car is again POS? That's great approach

#2424 george1981

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:26

Back in 2010 and 2011 to an extent the Mercedes got better/stabilised after they'd stopped developing the car becuase they were concentrating on set up. Given the circumstances that the cars from Brackley always seem to have a very small operating window concentrating on set up not development at this time of the year doesn't sound like too bad an idea to me.

#2425 Timstr11

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:08

So Mercedes like every year stops its car development mid year, to be prepared for next year? Then after 1st race it is clear to see that they focused on wrong thing and the car is again POS? That's great approach

You only continue developing if you're in the title fight and/or if the next car will be merely an evolution of the current. If neither of the 2 apply it will only be a waste of resources.

#2426 Shiroo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:49

You only continue developing if you're in the title fight and/or if the next car will be merely an evolution of the current. If neither of the 2 apply it will only be a waste of resources.

but with their resources, they year by year are saying "we gonna be WDC contender this year". And badum, they appear every season to go backwards. Tbh they were best in 2010, cause this year win was a lucky imo, due to layout & weather. they can even go from 4th like in 2011 and 2010 in WCC and fall on 6th... I could understand Lotus cause last year they spent more than Mercedes this year, but for god's sake Sauber? SAUBER?

I dunno if they make cars too complex, they focus on wrong thing, or whatever flaw is. But at the moment their cars look miserable ont he grid, are slow in quali, and pathetic in race, and as Mercedes brand they cant allow such thing to happen.

Maybe they should try smn else to be their head technical or smt. Cause atm it doesnt look good (or maybe they have too many enginners that are 2 famous)

There is smt wrong with the team, and they need to solve it or seriously Mercedes will leave F1, cause I'm pretty doubtful that they want to fight vs TR. I believe their last chance to show their potential is 2014, if they will fail there, Mercedes will likely leave F1.

#2427 Sakae

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:57

but with their resources, they year by year are saying "we gonna be WDC contender this year". And badum, they appear every season to go backwards. Tbh they were best in 2010, cause this year win was a lucky imo, due to layout & weather. they can even go from 4th like in 2011 and 2010 in WCC and fall on 6th... I could understand Lotus cause last year they spent more than Mercedes this year, but for god's sake Sauber? SAUBER?

I dunno if they make cars too complex, they focus on wrong thing, or whatever flaw is. But at the moment their cars look miserable ont he grid, are slow in quali, and pathetic in race, and as Mercedes brand they cant allow such thing to happen.

Maybe they should try smn else to be their head technical or smt. Cause atm it doesnt look good (or maybe they have too many enginners that are 2 famous)

There is smt wrong with the team, and they need to solve it or seriously Mercedes will leave F1, cause I'm pretty doubtful that they want to fight vs TR. I believe their last chance to show their potential is 2014, if they will fail there, Mercedes will likely leave F1.

Reorganization might not be completed as we see today, and possibility exists that AMG division will take over in full.

#2428 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:18

8th for Rosberg in qualifying is pretty good. The car isn't as bad as some people like to make it out to be.


The raw fundamental pace of the car is not bad, the DDRS certainly aids this on high speed straights in qualifying where it can be used frequently.

However, in races the car goes backwards and it eats its tyres faster than the oppostion, as a result they lose places, pit earlier or are forced to try silly strategies which they don't understand or get right nearly 100% of the time.

The bad DNA runs thoughout the team; development in season, design department, strategy, tyre management (BAR/HONDA days this was the same), lack of downforce on high speed corners (except Brawn) etc etc etc.

#2429 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:27

Back in 2010 and 2011 to an extent the Mercedes got better/stabilised after they'd stopped developing the car becuase they were concentrating on set up. Given the circumstances that the cars from Brackley always seem to have a very small operating window concentrating on set up not development at this time of the year doesn't sound like too bad an idea to me.


But why not try and develop the car on the track to learn new things for the following year? A clean sheet design every year is like developing the car blind. If they tried to develop this year they would have a base for 2013 and a better understanding.

You know, it's like trying to learn how to have sex by reading a book :lol:

#2430 KiloWatt

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:12

So Mercedes like every year stops its car development mid year, to be prepared for next year? Then after 1st race it is clear to see that they focused on wrong thing and the car is again POS? That's great approach


Just to clear some confusion, I believe Ross specifically stated that they will continue to develop this years' car. The notion of them stopping development this year got started by someone that doesn't read news and it just spread from there.

but with their resources, they year by year are saying "we gonna be WDC contender this year". And badum, they appear every season to go backwards.


I might be wrong, but I believe they only said that in 2010 (in fairness, they did just win the 2009 championship and it was reasonable to expect intitially that they will challenge again). Since then, I don't think any memeber of the team made that mistake again. In fact, at the beginning of this year, they aimed for 3rd (which they missed very badly, but that's beside the point I'm trying to make).

#2431 BernieEc

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:16

Can someone please correct me if am wrong.

I heard a rumour that for 2013 onwards mercedes have just brought a state of the art wind tunel and they now have the aerodynamasist from lotus so there alredy getting a strong lineup

any thruth to these rumours. Apologies if its already been discussed

#2432 boldhakka

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:25

Can someone please correct me if am wrong.

I heard a rumour that for 2013 onwards mercedes have just brought a state of the art wind tunel and they now have the aerodynamasist from lotus so there alredy getting a strong lineup

any thruth to these rumours. Apologies if its already been discussed


Merc did poach the chief of aerodynamics from Lotus, Mike Elliot. So that part's correct.

#2433 KiloWatt

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:32

Can someone please correct me if am wrong.

I heard a rumour that for 2013 onwards mercedes have just brought a state of the art wind tunel and they now have the aerodynamasist from lotus so there alredy getting a strong lineup

any thruth to these rumours. Apologies if its already been discussed


Don't know about a new wind tunnel. I know of the older 50% one being upgraded to a new 60% one (I think Geoff Willis was the driving force behind that).

#2434 Kvothe

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:32

Can someone please correct me if am wrong.

I heard a rumour that for 2013 onwards mercedes have just brought a state of the art wind tunel and they now have the aerodynamasist from lotus so there alredy getting a strong lineup

any thruth to these rumours. Apologies if its already been discussed


Ross Brawn said on the BBC that they had massively revamped the wind tunnel.

#2435 Timstr11

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:33

Can someone please correct me if am wrong.

I heard a rumour that for 2013 onwards mercedes have just brought a state of the art wind tunel and they now have the aerodynamasist from lotus so there alredy getting a strong lineup

any thruth to these rumours. Apologies if its already been discussed

They have upgraded the model size from 50 to 60%. They have likely upgraded the tunnel section itself to accommodate the larger model. They already have a fairly new tunnel. It was commissioned in 2006-2007.

#2436 Timstr11

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:35

but with their resources, they year by year are saying "we gonna be WDC contender this year". And badum, they appear every season to go backwards. Tbh they were best in 2010, cause this year win was a lucky imo, due to layout & weather. they can even go from 4th like in 2011 and 2010 in WCC and fall on 6th... I could understand Lotus cause last year they spent more than Mercedes this year, but for god's sake Sauber? SAUBER?

I dunno if they make cars too complex, they focus on wrong thing, or whatever flaw is. But at the moment their cars look miserable ont he grid, are slow in quali, and pathetic in race, and as Mercedes brand they cant allow such thing to happen.

Maybe they should try smn else to be their head technical or smt. Cause atm it doesnt look good (or maybe they have too many enginners that are 2 famous)

There is smt wrong with the team, and they need to solve it or seriously Mercedes will leave F1, cause I'm pretty doubtful that they want to fight vs TR. I believe their last chance to show their potential is 2014, if they will fail there, Mercedes will likely leave F1.

They have. Aldo Costa.

#2437 BernieEc

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:49

Merc did poach the chief of aerodynamics from Lotus, Mike Elliot. So that part's correct.



Don't know about a new wind tunnel. I know of the older 50% one being upgraded to a new 60% one (I think Geoff Willis was the driving force behind that).



Ross Brawn said on the BBC that they had massively revamped the wind tunnel.



They have upgraded the model size from 50 to 60%. They have likely upgraded the tunnel section itself to accommodate the larger model. They already have a fairly new tunnel. It was commissioned in 2006-2007.



:up: :up:

#2438 Kingshark

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:13

Norbert Haug, Ross Brawn, Nick Fry, Niki Lauda, Michael Schumacher, Bob Bell, Mike Elliot, Geoff Willis and Aldo Costa. If the team fails next year, I do not know what to say.

#2439 Sakae

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:42

Yeah, but you forgot Jean Todt. Diminutive Frenchman, who knows a thing or two about F1 management.

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#2440 revlec

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:23

Thanks to Aldo Costa, next year Mercedes will have new suspension layout(philosofy) and I'm sure the car will be competitive and kind with tires.. Just like the Ferraris(He surely knows a thing or two about the red cars) :p :p :p .. Lewis will do the rest ;);)
__

I expect Australia 2013 and China 2013 to be wet, and HAM will lead the WDC table. Mark my words!

Edited by revlec, 06 November 2012 - 14:23.


#2441 BernieEc

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:25

Thanks to Aldo Costa, next year Mercedes will have new suspension layout(philosofy) and I'm sure the car will be competitive and kind with tires.. Just like the Ferraris(He surely knows a thing or two about the red cars) :p :p :p .. Lewis will do the rest ;);)
__

I expect Australia 2013 and China 2013 to be wet, and HAM will lead the WDC table. Mark my words!


Are you a weather God?

nevertheless I do admire your enthusiasm. Even though am an LH fan, I can't help but feel its misplaced :)

#2442 revlec

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:29

Are you a weather God?

nevertheless I do admire your enthusiasm. Even though am an LH fan, I can't help but feel its misplaced :)


Well I hope to be right. Australia 2010 and China 2010 were wet races. It's not that difficult..  ;)
My confidence comes from the fact that Aldo Costa is now on board, and I know how they teach engineering here(no fluff).


Do you remember who was technical director when they(Ferrari) designed their last competitive car(2010)?

Edited by revlec, 06 November 2012 - 14:30.


#2443 race addicted

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:35

The Pirelli inters- and wets are said to place lesser emphasis on the driver doing the job, but more on the right chassis "carrying" the tires.

Even if it would splash down for a number of races next year, it's not a given at all they will be repeats of Silverstone '08.

#2444 revlec

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:38

The Pirelli inters- and wets are said to place lesser emphasis on the driver doing the job, but more on the right chassis "carrying" the tires.

Even if it would splash down for a number of races next year, it's not a given at all they will be repeats of Silverstone '08.


Do you have any information on next year Pirelli Wet/inter tires?
Are they planning to change/upgrade them?

Edited by revlec, 06 November 2012 - 14:38.


#2445 race addicted

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:42

Do you have any information on next year Pirelli Wet/inter tires?
Are they planning to change/upgrade them?


No, I've only heard about the mentioned structural changes to the slick-tires.

#2446 korzeniow

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:59

Thanks to Aldo Costa, next year Mercedes will have new suspension layout(philosofy) and I'm sure the car will be competitive and kind with tires.. Just like the Ferraris(He surely knows a thing or two about the red cars) :p :p :p .. Lewis will do the rest ;);)
__

I expect Australia 2013 and China 2013 to be wet, and HAM will lead the WDC table. Mark my words!


I also think with Costa the team should do better.

But Costa's last car Ferrari 150° Italia had its issues with Pirelli tyres aswell, the car couldn't bring them up to temperature.

Also about your prediction the car kind on its tyres will have problem with heating them up in the wet, so assuming Australia and China would be wet then it's safe to assume the Mercedes won't win them

#2447 boldhakka

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 15:05

Thanks to Aldo Costa, next year Mercedes will have new suspension layout(philosofy) and I'm sure the car will be competitive and kind with tires.. Just like the Ferraris(He surely knows a thing or two about the red cars) :p :p :p .. Lewis will do the rest ;);)
__

I expect Australia 2013 and China 2013 to be wet, and HAM will lead the WDC table. Mark my words!


I don't know about the reasons you mention here (kind on tyres, etc.) but I agree that the 2013 Merc will be competitive and that Lewis will multiple races in it.

#2448 Vic Vega

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 15:12

Thanks to Aldo Costa, next year Mercedes will have new suspension layout(philosofy) and I'm sure the car will be competitive and kind with tires.. Just like the Ferraris(He surely knows a thing or two about the red cars) :p :p :p .. Lewis will do the rest ;);)
__

Yes, he was instrumental in Ferrari's success.

I expect Australia 2013 and China 2013 to be wet, and HAM will lead the WDC table. Mark my words!

Marked.

#2449 Lamag

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 15:26

I also think with Costa the team should do better.

But Costa's last car Ferrari 150° Italia had its issues with Pirelli tyres aswell, the car couldn't bring them up to temperature.

Also about your prediction the car kind on its tyres will have problem with heating them up in the wet, so assuming Australia and China would be wet then it's safe to assume the Mercedes won't win them


Ferrari stopped the development of the car as soon as May, so we can't know if tyre problem on the 150° Italia was easy to solve.

#2450 KiloWatt

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 18:28

Ferrari stopped the development of the car as soon as May, so we can't know if tyre problem on the 150° Italia was easy to solve.


Perhaps another way of looking at it, is if it was easy to solve they'd have done it before May?

But somewhat OT, my aplogies.