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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#201 rog

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:55

Rosberg: Mercedes still in title fight despite Canadian GP slump
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100307
Dear boy! I see this year P5 in WCC.


He is ~20 points behind, it's not over yet. Hower, it's obvious that Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel have the biggest chances realistically. But it would be strange if Rosberg would tell us it's over.

Edited by rog, 11 June 2012 - 12:55.


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#202 ivand911

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:04

He is ~20 points behind, it's not over yet. Hower, it's obvious that Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel have the biggest chances realistically. But it would be strange if Rosberg would tell us it's over.

Yeah, with car like E20 even RG have bigger chance. I doubt that W03 will be consistent enough. I would advise him if he can find place in RBR or Ferrari to take it. MGP will never be title contender.

Edited by ivand911, 11 June 2012 - 13:07.


#203 1Devil1

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:08

Rosberg: Mercedes still in title fight despite Canadian GP slump
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100307
Dear boy! I see this year P5 in WCC.



Why should he say it's over he is only 20 points behind. one victory and he can fight for the title. even raikkonen can comeback. we have 13 races left. but i think mercedes will struggle now. monaco was a one off - i guess

#204 Lamag

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:42

Yeah, with car like E20 even RG have bigger chance. I doubt that W03 will be consistent enough. I would advise him if he can find place in RBR or Ferrari to take it. MGP will never be title contender.


I think you are being too dramatic.


Why should he say it's over he is only 20 points behind. one victory and he can fight for the title. even raikkonen can comeback. we have 13 races left. but i think mercedes will struggle now. monaco was a one off - i guess


Just after Bahrain more than one here said that China was one-off and then came Monaco.

I have no doubt Rosberg will win at least a couple of races more until the end of the season.

Edited by Lamag, 11 June 2012 - 13:42.


#205 1Devil1

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:09

I think you are being too dramatic.

Just after Bahrain more than one here said that China was one-off and then came Monaco.

I have no doubt Rosberg will win at least a couple of races more until the end of the season.


and you are way too optimistic. If rosberg wins a couple of races more he will be the champion. Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren will get their act together and decode the tire mystery and will mercedes leave in the dust. I can see a an odd win for Nico or Michael but not more than that. The car is not consistent enough

Edited by 1Devil1, 11 June 2012 - 15:10.


#206 F1Champion

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 18:18

Ridiculous strategy and reliability from Mercedes. They need to sort it out because marketing wise it looks shocking when Caterhams, HRTs and Marussia's have better reliability.

#207 HanD

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 23:12

Going to Canada with bad top speed is like going with knife to a gun battle.
I don't know what they were thinking?

About Nico fuel problems , I wouldn't be surprised if he start races with less fuel than MS and thus "better" Q results. Nico constantly save fuel. Yesterday he start to do it since lap 10? For sure they don't under fuel him, it is a strategy.


F1PitRadio ‏:Rosberg told "no fuel saving so push hard"
F1PitRadio ‏: Rosberg told to save fuel by lifting into T8, 10, and 13.


Sorry i'm missing the connection between starting races with less fuel and the correlation to better Q results. The cars are refueled for the race after Q right? so isn't everyone on fumes for Q3? how is this helping nico qualify better than ms?

#208 Zava

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 23:48

Sorry i'm missing the connection between starting races with less fuel and the correlation to better Q results. The cars are refueled for the race after Q right? so isn't everyone on fumes for Q3? how is this helping nico qualify better than ms?

he's also saving fuel in qualy by lifting so he can be fueled lighter by 0,3 kg for the qualy run. :rolleyes:
in other words: I also don't know where he got that nonsense from. you're perfectly right.

#209 ivand911

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 06:40

Sorry i'm missing the connection between starting races with less fuel and the correlation to better Q results. The cars are refueled for the race after Q right? so isn't everyone on fumes for Q3? how is this helping nico qualify better than ms?

You are right about that. I don't know what I was thinking then. But, still Nico get very often instructions to save fuel, about MS I almost don't remember such instructions. I guess less fuel help in the race.


#210 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 07:26

Schumacher has enough fuel to get to the second pitstop. Other than that it is just a waste.;)

#211 sempreschumi

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:30

I was wondering why Rosberg completed every lap this year, while Schumi had really poor reliability. Now I don't think there is a single reason to explain all of Michael's failures, but it just crossed my mind that most of Micheal's issues are mechanical and hidraulic. Sometimes we see him attacking the kerbs really stong, scratching the ground with his FW ends. I don't remember Nico pushing his car so hard. Is it just possible that these powerful shocks, in cooperation with the way the suspension is set-up is creating oscillations that get into resonance with some other mechanical parts, causing damage, and ultimately failures?

#212 baddog

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:40

Ross brawn says not.

#213 Disgrace

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:50

I was wondering why Rosberg completed every lap this year, while Schumi had really poor reliability. Now I don't think there is a single reason to explain all of Michael's failures, but it just crossed my mind that most of Micheal's issues are mechanical and hidraulic. Sometimes we see him attacking the kerbs really stong, scratching the ground with his FW ends. I don't remember Nico pushing his car so hard. Is it just possible that these powerful shocks, in cooperation with the way the suspension is set-up is creating oscillations that get into resonance with some other mechanical parts, causing damage, and ultimately failures?


Nor is there is an explanation for Schumachers bullet-proof reliability that lasted from Hungary 2001 to Bahrain 2005, a blessing certainly not shared by his team-mate. It's just the way it goes sometimes, and it's not down to the driver.

Edited by Disgrace, 12 June 2012 - 11:51.


#214 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:01

You are right about that. I don't know what I was thinking then. But, still Nico get very often instructions to save fuel, about MS I almost don't remember such instructions. I guess less fuel help in the race.


Michael didn't get the instructions because they knew he wasn't going to finish the race anyway. Why add to the misery? :lol:

#215 george1981

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:01

With the DRS issue, I thought it was meant to fail safe so in the event of a failure it's stuck shut not open. Has there been any explanation from the team what went wrong?
If it was a hydraulics issue, had the DRS been stuck shut would the car have died because of another issue caused by the hydraulics?


#216 baddog

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:17

Nor is there is an explanation for Schumachers bullet-proof reliability that lasted from Hungary 2001 to Bahrain 2005, a blessing certainly not shared by his team-mate. It's just the way it goes sometimes, and it's not down to the driver.


2001: rubens barrichello - 3 retirements 1 mechanical (schumacher - 2 retirements 2 mechanical)
2002: rubens barrichello - 5 retirements 4 mechanical
2003: rubens barrichella - 5 retirements 2 mechanical
2004: rubens barrichello - 1 retirement 0 mechanical
2005: rubens barrichello - 2 retirements 1 mechanical (schumacher - 6 retirements 2 mechanical)

Basically with the exception of 2002 Rubens enjoyed excellent reliability, albeit not as good as his teammate. That said I for one just put this year down to bad fortune and the team not quite doing their jobs as well as they should.

Edited by baddog, 12 June 2012 - 12:19.


#217 ivand911

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 13:19

Michael didn't get the instructions because they knew he wasn't going to finish the race anyway. Why add to the misery? :lol:

Next time they will fill him for half race in case nothing breaks. :lol:


#218 Jhope

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 15:41

at roughly 2:20. Interesting that this would happen to him.

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=z9dn6U-A5QY

#219 Schumacher7

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 16:28

With the DRS issue, I thought it was meant to fail safe so in the event of a failure it's stuck shut not open. Has there been any explanation from the team what went wrong?
If it was a hydraulics issue, had the DRS been stuck shut would the car have died because of another issue caused by the hydraulics?

They said on Sky a small pipe broke and got wedged in the bit where there wing goes back down to or something which stopped the wing going back down.

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#220 BRG

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 21:25

I couldn't believe it - it looked like local garage mechanics, though that's actually a dis-service to local garages. Surprised they didn't just take a hammer to it - seriously WTF, they looked clueless.

:rolleyes: And how would YOU have dealt with the problem in the few seconds available, when the thing was jammed open by a hydraulics problem? I am sure that the team would be interested to have the benefit of your expertise.

#221 BigCHrome

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 04:58

Where would Schumi have finished if it wasn't for the problem?

#222 SeanValen

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 06:03

Where would Schumi have finished if it wasn't for the problem?



The biggest question is where would he had been if qualifying went to plan and he got the reliability in the race.

But it's clear other teams could do 1 stoppers b ut not mercedes. Whatever advantage the track was meant to bring the team, predicted for the team didn't quite come off as thought. Not sure if tempertures on race day caught them out a bit and which is the story of the season and it's 7 winners.

Edited by SeanValen, 13 June 2012 - 06:05.


#223 Sakae

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 09:59

I do find Horner's comments about 2012 spec. tires rather alarming. It will affect Mercedes team as well.

#224 rog

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 14:17

Where would Schumi have finished if it wasn't for the problem?



P9-P11.

#225 Atonal

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 15:02

Rosberg's interview on the F1 site adds to the mystery of the tyres/setup this season particularly in reference to the W03. As I pointed out in Schumacher's thread, I didn't take much heart from Mercedes' performance over the weekend. The spiky nature of Rosberg's speed left me bemused and quite concerned that the optimum tyre window is just very hard to understand currently.

"It was really a rollercoaster race for me. There were good times and bad times and in the end it was all over the place. We have to analyse over the next few days what really happened. I am sure that I could have done better today - definitely. But at the same time it could have been worse."

"As I just said before it was a race of very different phases. I was very smooth with the tyres and still I could not match Perez and Romain Grosjean. It is hard for myself to understand"

I think with these wheels individual driver preferences can throw quite a curveball in terms of race pace come Sunday whereas in the past these personal tweeks could help both team members drive competitively and each to his own strength. Now it happens that one guy is winning the race or is marching towards the podium and the other seems hopelessly lost nowhere. One car just seems to be out of the window and the pilot can try everything - from avoiding flat spots, to following the racing line/avoiding marbles and trying to get out of turbulent/dirty air etc. with little to no effect in placing the car firmly back in that working window.
Merc to me seems especially vulnerable to these swings and both the drivers have my sympathy in trying to deal with something that is constantly a moving target.

#226 ivand911

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 16:06

As I said race pace is king. Q doesn't matter.

#227 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 17:18

As I said race pace is king. Q doesn't matter.

it depends where you find yourself stuck

#228 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 19:06

As it's been said, these tyres are a joke. This is a sport, not the Euromillions.

#229 BRG

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 21:29

As it's been said, these tyres are a joke.

Romain and Sergio obviously get the joke.

#230 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 21:49

Romain and Sergio obviously get the joke.

that's why they both won so many GPs yet

#231 exogenesis1203

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 22:02

:rolleyes: And how would YOU have dealt with the problem in the few seconds available, when the thing was jammed open by a hydraulics problem? I am sure that the team would be interested to have the benefit of your expertise.

Exactly, besides, if the downforce from the RW can't put it back down, I'm sure no amount of human brute force can push it back down.

#232 baddog

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 23:50

:rolleyes: And how would YOU have dealt with the problem in the few seconds available, when the thing was jammed open by a hydraulics problem? I am sure that the team would be interested to have the benefit of your expertise.

I would have inspected the endplates to see if there was an obvious jam. Pushing down on the wing serves almost precisely no purpose, the car has been doing that for the whole lap.

#233 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 17:39

I would have inspected the endplates to see if there was an obvious jam. Pushing down on the wing serves almost precisely no purpose, the car has been doing that for the whole lap.

if you use your body weight you "feel" where it's jammed (on what part). You feel if there is a degree of movement and where etc

I don't think it's nonesense...

#234 baddog

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 22:00

if you use your body weight you "feel" where it's jammed (on what part). You feel if there is a degree of movement and where etc

I don't think it's nonesense...

There were about 3 of them leaning on it.. it was desperation without thinking.

#235 HanD

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 22:53

There were about 3 of them leaning on it.. it was desperation without thinking.


i think it's certainly easier now to look back with hindsight and examine what else could have been done as opposed to the less than 30 seconds they may have had from when they found out until the car was in front of them and they were racing to try to do anything to get it back on track. I'm sure the staff get training and are very knowledgable about every part of the car. Desperation and panic in a moment where even if you take an extra 1/2 second it may cost you points is understandable because after say 10 seconds, there isn't much point in rushing the car back out.

#236 DS27

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 07:13

:rolleyes: And how would YOU have dealt with the problem in the few seconds available, when the thing was jammed open by a hydraulics problem? I am sure that the team would be interested to have the benefit of your expertise.


:rolleyes: Derrr... Would you believe that i'm not a highly paid, highly skilled engineer, working at the very pinnacle of motorsport - they are. Now if they wanted their air-conditioning fixed in their motorhomes, i'm your man.

The mechanism had clearly failed - how sensible was it to try and 'bash' it down. It wouldn't fix the actual underlying issue, and even if they had manged to force it closed it in the pits, it would just have left MS driving a potentially dangerous car where the rear wing mechanism was going to open again at any time.

#237 BRG

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 16:30

that's why they both won so many GPs yet

Yes, you're right, 2nd and 3rd places are just so s**t, much better to score a 6th and a DNF.



#238 Timstr11

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 19:06

Merc's recent tech updates (by Scarbs)

#239 F1Champion

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 20:46

Merc's recent tech updates (by Scarbs)


I feel that Mercedes needs to develop the exhausts more. Ferrari have made massive strides in this area and Mercedes seem not to have developed it much since Australia.

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#240 Kompressor

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 17:27

Mercedes 'fastest car' in 2012

http://www.f1today.n...est-car-in-2012

I read these glowing reports before every race weekend but the hype rarely becomes the reality.

Edited by Kompressor, 19 June 2012 - 17:28.


#241 korzeniow

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 21:20

Mercedes 'fastest car' in 2012

http://www.f1today.n...est-car-in-2012

I read these glowing reports before every race weekend but the hype rarely becomes the reality.


Yeap, the most overhyped team in the pack which was supposed to fight for titles from the first day

#242 BetaVersion

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 00:30

That's another reason for me not buying that Rosberg claim of Mercedes being the fastest at Monaco.

It could have be, but that only speculative. The drivers might have performed incredibly well, while others couldn't have extracted everything from their cars.

I'm quite convinced Vettel would have won Monaco, if overtaking was possible there.

About next track, it's a bit like Montreal but not exactly the same. Let's see how the temperatures/tires will affect the pecking order

Regardless of any conditions, I guess W03 suits the circuit very well and a podium finish shouldn't be written off

#243 rog

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 00:49

Rosberg was surely the fastest in Monaco, but that's nothing new and it's a uncommon track. It doesn't matter anymore. Montreal demonstrated they don't have the fastest car at the moment. Mercedes can be competitive in Valencia but they can't except a win there or even a podium. Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari improved their cars as well.

#244 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:01

Canada is about just as wierd as Monaco. Considering how the teams went up and down this year no team can expect to be the best before they actually touch the spanish track

#245 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:03

I'm quite convinced Vettel would have won Monaco, if overtaking was possible there.

Well if overtaking was possible Nico would have cleared Mark... I Michael would have also climbed in the pack

Would have...should have....the w03 looked like a damn good car around monaco though

#246 korzeniow

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 10:30

Well if overtaking was possible Nico would have cleared Mark... I Michael would have also climbed in the pack

Would have...should have....the w03 looked like a damn good car around monaco though


Yeah, Monaco which isn't indicator of anything, it's so unique that you can't make predictions based on the performance there

#247 mkoscevic

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 10:48

Yeah, Monaco which isn't indicator of anything, it's so unique that you can't make predictions based on the performance there


Monaco is a track. Mercedes is a car. Schumacher is a driver.

If that isn't indicator of anything for you, then switch to golf.

#248 KiloWatt

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 11:19

Monaco is a track. Mercedes is a car. Schumacher is a driver.

If that isn't indicator of anything for you, then switch to golf.


Being a fan of the team and therefore not often in agreement with korzeniow, I still feel compelled to say that it really isn't as simple as that.

Edited by KiloWatt, 20 June 2012 - 11:19.


#249 mkoscevic

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 14:32

Being a fan of the team and therefore not often in agreement with korzeniow, I still feel compelled to say that it really isn't as simple as that.


The point is that pole happens because car is fundamentally very good. True, F1 cars aren't exactly designed for Monaco-type tracks and performance there isn't usually taken as a baseline but it's still an F1-category track that requires a proper, good car to achive any success under normal circumstances (no rain, no massive pile ups etc.). Strongest teams at this years' Monaco GP were the four teams who were the strongest teams so far in this season.

#250 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 14:41

Yeah, Monaco which isn't indicator of anything, it's so unique that you can't make predictions based on the performance there

Well, it's not like you could have an HRT or Marussia on pole @ Monaco.
It's always one of the top teams, it may not be the fastest overall car but it's still a pretty fast car.

How about the pole & wins in China?