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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2451 Lamag

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 21:16

Perhaps another way of looking at it, is if it was easy to solve they'd have done it before May?

But somewhat OT, my aplogies.


They were making room for Pat Fry, so the use the tyre issues as a excuse to fire him (Costa), that's why Ferrari don't put a penny into the 150° Italia.

Edited by Lamag, 06 November 2012 - 21:18.


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#2452 BigCHrome

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 23:36

I wouldn't expect the increase in wind tunnel size to make that much of a difference. Rubber RB nose and their countless other flexy tricks have showed that slaving away in the wind tunnel isn't how you make the car fast, you need tons of imagination to design of things that fit in the rule book and actually improve the car.

If Sauber gets ahead in final points count, that would cost team a few bucks. To certain extend I want Sauber succeed, because it would financially help them, on the other hand, possibility of further decline would have to be psychologically depressing for everyone on board, including team's loyal following. More reasons to continue work on 2012 car.


This team's current "loyal" following is comprised of 99% rabid MS fans that won't be here next year, expect to occasionally gloat when the car is inevitably horrible.

Edited by BigCHrome, 06 November 2012 - 23:50.


#2453 Nahnever

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 23:46

Can't wait to see how this car performs with Hamilton at the controls. Wish they would do something about that ugly nose though.

#2454 LiJu914

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 23:55

Can't wait to see how this car performs with Hamilton at the controls. Wish they would do something about that ugly nose though.



You won´t as there will be different car in 2013.  ;)

#2455 BetaVersion

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 00:04

This team's current "loyal" following is comprised of 99% rabid MS fans that won't be here next year, expect to occasionally gloat when the car is inevitably horrible.


Pretty much. MSC fans will be gone from here next year and will ocasionally only appear to mock the team, Lewis and Nico when(pedantically if :p ) the car reveals to be another dog

Btw, Sauber is only 12 points away, if I'm not wrong. Mercedes might lose their 5th in WCC afterall. :D

Edited by BetaVersion, 07 November 2012 - 00:04.


#2456 Sakae

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:41

I wouldn't expect the increase in wind tunnel size to make that much of a difference. Rubber RB nose and their countless other flexy tricks have showed that slaving away in the wind tunnel isn't how you make the car fast, you need tons of imagination to design of things that fit in the rule book and actually improve the car.



This team's current "loyal" following is comprised of 99% rabid MS fans that won't be here next year, expect to occasionally gloat when the car is inevitably horrible.

I am not certain about that "gloating", but I agree that we will be displaced (booted out?) by rabid Hamilton's fans who will gladly take any credit for success, and none for the failure, I expect. Anything can happen in F1, and usually does, to borrow little wisdom from Murray Walker. Yet some of us are loyal to this brand of a car, not so much of the creation from Brackley, you are correct on that point.

Edited by Sakae, 07 November 2012 - 05:42.


#2457 packapoo

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:50

Ferrari stopped the development of the car as soon as May, so we can't know if tyre problem on the 150° Italia was easy to solve.


Kind of 'if it looks like a dog and runs like a dog, then it's a dog'?

#2458 packapoo

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:18

Can't wait to see how this car performs with Hamilton at the controls. Wish they would do something about that ugly nose though.


Don't need to wish. FIA have mandated the fix.
(One would really have supposed they'd have more pressing matters to occupy their tiny minds. But no, it seems not.)

#2459 Sakae

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:25

Can't wait to see how this car performs with Hamilton at the controls.

"This" car in 2013? This is going to be fun, I can detect that already.


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#2460 Lamag

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:59

Kind of 'if it looks like a dog and runs like a dog, then it's a dog'?


What is point here? The 150° Italia was a better car than the F2012 during the first four races of both car, the main difference here is the development.

#2461 ForeverF1

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 20:40

Pointless trolling posts have been removed.

#2462 Kompressor

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:23

The latest from Norbert Haug. http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104163

I only wish they had made the changes to the exhaust earlier.

Edited by Kompressor, 12 November 2012 - 09:25.


#2463 TheSpecialOne

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 14:21

Would really like to see mike coughlan join the brackley boys, I feel that with him their technical team would be pretty formidable.

I know people will bang on about spy gate, but hopefully that's all in the past, he's served his punishment so lets move on. The guy was a key cog for the mclarens of 07-08 (mp4-22 & mp4-23) and I think it's no coincidence that having been hired by Williams mid last season, they have steadily improved. I know they've been inconsistent, but they've shown good speed and won a race too!

I think he would be an excellent acquisition. I tipped Williams to improve when they signed him, and improve they have.

#2464 MP422

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 15:20

Would really like to see mike coughlan join the brackley boys, I feel that with him their technical team would be pretty formidable.

I know people will bang on about spy gate, but hopefully that's all in the past, he's served his punishment so lets move on. The guy was a key cog for the mclarens of 07-08 (mp4-22 & mp4-23) and I think it's no coincidence that having been hired by Williams mid last season, they have steadily improved. I know they've been inconsistent, but they've shown good speed and won a race too!

I think he would be an excellent acquisition. I tipped Williams to improve when they signed him, and improve they have.


I agree, he's a talented guy. People i guess think the spygate stuff was bad.... not me... i love it that someone would do that... soo ruthless !!! Is Coughlan moving to MGP ? has he learned not to use Kinkos ?

#2465 TheSpecialOne

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 15:27

I agree, he's a talented guy. People i guess think the spygate stuff was bad.... not me... i love it that someone would do that... soo ruthless !!! Is Coughlan moving to MGP ? has he learned not to use Kinkos ?



He's not moving, I'm just speculating how he could be the final piece, MGP would be the technical envy of the field. I personally think coughlan is one of the few designers in f1 that 'could' take on newey.

#2466 MaxisOne

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 15:35

I agree, he's a talented guy. People i guess think the spygate stuff was bad.... not me... i love it that someone would do that... soo ruthless !!! Is Coughlan moving to MGP ? has he learned not to use Kinkos ?



Still not too keen on another TD moving to Mercedes. We have more than enough brain trust. Id rather one of the in house former TD's (Costa & Willis) completely conceptualise and "own" a car from start to development and finish to truly see if any of them are really capable to bring the team forward.

It would almost be similar to Mclaren where they have two design teams that alternate every year and are only slightly influenced by the input of Bob Bell to ensure that there is nothing crazy going on between the two design teams and that they both have equal oppurtunities (resource manager and referee capacity essentially).



#2467 Sakae

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:26

Would really like to see mike coughlan join the brackley boys, I feel that with him their technical team would be pretty formidable.


He could be a brain, but which hole he would plug in current configuration? I thought that more than anyone else this team needs someone like J.Todt to sort out and streamline team’s management. I can't see Lauda doing it correctly from a distance, because I think you need to be there, and understand the issues on real technical time-line.

Edited by Sakae, 13 November 2012 - 06:36.


#2468 Sakae

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:15

This might be relevant to Mercedes-Benz, which directly competes with somebody who has left F1 and focused on their core-business. Mercedes-Benz is of course performing OK as well, but shareholders might have a different take on news like these. Someone on this BB who seems to be a credible person shared with me earlier on, that fundamental re-organization of this team is in the offing (for 2014?), and AMG division might be slated to take over its full control. Stay tuned, but it's not over at Brackley with acceptance of CA.

In the news...

DW | 6 Nov 2012 | BMW races to new profit highs in third quarter

German luxury auto maker BMW on Tuesday reported a 16 percent jump in net profit in the third quarter. The Munich-based company said earnings in the three months to September amounted to 1.29 billion euros ($1.65 billion). Revenue rose by 14 percent to 18.8 billion euro in the period under revision. Between January through the end of September, BMW logged an 8.6 percent increase, selling close to 1.2 million vehicles worldwide.


http://www.dw.de/bmw...rter/a-16357835

Edited by Sakae, 13 November 2012 - 07:16.


#2469 BigCHrome

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:01

Manufacturers controlling F1 teams never ends well. They're also obviously not going to move away from Brackley.

#2470 Massa

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:14

They were making room for Pat Fry, so the use the tyre issues as a excuse to fire him (Costa), that's why Ferrari don't put a penny into the 150° Italia.



It's false.

#2471 Timstr11

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:49

This might be relevant to Mercedes-Benz, which directly competes with somebody who has left F1 and focused on their core-business. Mercedes-Benz is of course performing OK as well, but shareholders might have a different take on news like these. Someone on this BB who seems to be a credible person shared with me earlier on, that fundamental re-organization of this team is in the offing (for 2014?), and AMG division might be slated to take over its full control. Stay tuned, but it's not over at Brackley with acceptance of CA.

In the news...

DW | 6 Nov 2012 | BMW races to new profit highs in third quarter



http://www.dw.de/bmw...rter/a-16357835

You have been on this AMG thing for months.
What exactly do you mean by 'take over its full control'?
Why do you think the Mercedes-AMG car division can design a better car than the Mercedes-AMG F1 team?
Have you noticed that 4 of the top 5 F1 teams are based in motorsport valley in England. That's where the knowledge and know how is to design and build F1 cars. Not in Affalterbach, Germany.

Edited by Timstr11, 13 November 2012 - 09:54.


#2472 amppatel

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:28

You have been on this AMG thing for months.
What exactly do you mean by 'take over its full control'?
Why do you think the Mercedes-AMG car division can design a better car than the Mercedes-AMG F1 team?
Have you noticed that 4 of the top 5 F1 teams are based in motorsport valley in England. That's where the knowledge and know how is to design and build F1 cars. Not in Affalterbach, Germany.


Totally agree, the only team that is really viable outside England is Ferrari.

#2473 Timstr11

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:53

Mercedes regrets missing out on bendy front wings. Brawn saying the DDRS front wing kept them from looking into what other teams were doing with "smart technology" (read 'bendy') front wings:
http://www.motorspor...mercedes-brawn/

#2474 Lamag

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:25

It's false.


Nice

#2475 Sakae

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:31

You have been on this AMG thing for months.
What exactly do you mean by 'take over its full control'?
Why do you think the Mercedes-AMG car division can design a better car than the Mercedes-AMG F1 team?
Have you noticed that 4 of the top 5 F1 teams are based in motorsport valley in England. That's where the knowledge and know how is to design and build F1 cars. Not in Affalterbach, Germany.

You have unique interpretation of my note, but that's fine, carry on. I guess we will simply have to wait a while how situation develops.

#2476 Timstr11

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:37

You have unique interpretation of my note, but that's fine, carry on. I guess we will simply have to wait a while how situation develops.

I have asked you a question. What do you mean by AMG will take full control. What does that mean?

#2477 moorsey

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:43

Mercedes regrets missing out on bendy front wings. Brawn saying the DDRS front wing kept them from looking into what other teams were doing with "smart technology" (read 'bendy') front wings:
http://www.motorspor...mercedes-brawn/


That's a good read and I do like the way that Ross seems quite open about wrong decissions having been made. It gives me confidence that they have worked out where they went wrong and that they now know where their focus needs to be for 2013/14.
Can't wait to see how the new team work together.

#2478 walkindude

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 13:16

That's a good read and I do like the way that Ross seems quite open about wrong decissions having been made. It gives me confidence that they have worked out where they went wrong and that they now know where their focus needs to be for 2013/14.
Can't wait to see how the new team work together.

They accept their mistakes every year

#2479 ali_M

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 13:42

They accept their mistakes every year


Yeah. They sounded extremely hopeful at the start of this year and there was some promising performance in the car, especially after China. See where they are now.

I was taken by his comments too but after some thought I became very cautious about it. I'm really, really curious to see how the car performs next year.

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#2480 Clatter

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 13:50

They accept their mistakes every year


And then repeat them.


#2481 maverick69

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 14:07

Mercedes regrets missing out on bendy front wings. Brawn saying the DDRS front wing kept them from looking into what other teams were doing with "smart technology" (read 'bendy') front wings:
http://www.motorspor...mercedes-brawn/


The classic drag vs downforce debate. I guess they backed the wrong horse this year........

#2482 KiloWatt

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 14:55

What really pissed me off about this team can be summarised in this line:

"Then there are several structural considerations that have caught on this year. This will disappear, or it should do so, next year. With the new tests, the level of freedom some have taken should be eliminated."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104198

"Should". He said the same thing last year when the effectiveness of EBD "should" have been limited.

The difference between the folks at MercAMG and Red Bull, is when the FIA tries to ban something Red Bull will try their best to claw as much benefit back as possible. Whereas MercAMG seems just abandon it and never give it a second thought. It happened in 2011 when the effectiveness of the EBD was supposedly banned and they were late to the party and it happened again this year with the 'Coanda EBD'.

I can almost see Merc not giving a second thought to the flexible noses and just not bothering to look into it while Adrian Newey rocks up with a loop hole or revised design and beats the ever loving shit out of everyone for the fourth time in a row. Then halfway through the season they get their flexible noses (which they'll struggle to get working) when it's waay to late to make a difference.

I'm just so angry at this, because I laughed in the face of the Renault engines a few years back. It was at the time that flavio was crying about Merc and Ferrari continuing development when the engines were supposedly frozen. And I applauded merc for still managing to find a way to develop their engines while Renault didn't bother and had to ask for parity. I was laughing when Merc showed them the door when they came back for a third time.

And now, as a Merc fan, I have to accept that the team is being outsmarted in development as the engine department once outsmarted Renault. It just makes me livid when it seems to happen again and again and they don't seem to learn their lessons.

But hope, as they say, dies last. And Mike Elliot is the current defibrilator of my hope for 2013.

#2483 ForeverF1

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:03

What really pissed me off about this team can be summarised in this line:


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104198

"Should". He said the same thing last year when the effectiveness of EBD "should" have been limited.

The difference between the folks at MercAMG and Red Bull, is when the FIA tries to ban something Red Bull will try their best to claw as much benefit back as possible. Whereas MercAMG seems just abandon it and never give it a second thought.

Is this intervention/interference by the 'suits' from Stuttgart?

#2484 Timstr11

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:58

Is this intervention/interference by the 'suits' from Stuttgart?

I don't think this has got anything to do with Stuttgart as this is about design decisions.
These are judgement calls made by the Brawn and his team.

#2485 BoschKurve

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 17:08

I can't wait to see what promises come with the W04. :rolleyes:

This team is such a joke now. All Ross does is make excuses for why things didn't work out.

#2486 RealRacing

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 17:27

To me they have seemed too relaxed with their goals since the beginning: "we don´t expect to be at the front in (insert season here)" and, afterwards, too apologetic. When did they plan to be fighting for the championships?

#2487 TheSpecialOne

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 17:30

I can't wait to see what promises come with the W04. :rolleyes:

This team is such a joke now. All Ross does is make excuses for why things didn't work out.


Harsh! Am I the only one that see's the improvement in this team? It takes time to get things in place, besides, the MGP base which they've started the season with has improved year-on-year!

They've has development issues this season sure, but with their house in order I fully expect MGP to regularly challenge for podiums next year, and could well be quicker than Ferrari and lotus. Bookmark if you like.

#2488 BoschKurve

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 17:59

To me they have seemed too relaxed with their goals since the beginning: "we don´t expect to be at the front in (insert season here)" and, afterwards, too apologetic. When did they plan to be fighting for the championships?


I believe they said they would be contending for the championship by year 3. That's since been revised to some unknown date.

All they do is talk. Success is right around the corner every time they open their mouths.

#2489 Kompressor

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:34

It sounds like Mercedes are finally on the same page as the top teams when it comes to the design of the 2013 car. I'm not liking the look of their Coanda effect exhaust. Those cooling vents have to be affecting the airflow. It doesn't seem to have changed since it's inception.

#2490 BoschKurve

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:34

Harsh! Am I the only one that see's the improvement in this team? It takes time to get things in place, besides, the MGP base which they've started the season with has improved year-on-year!

They've has development issues this season sure, but with their house in order I fully expect MGP to regularly challenge for podiums next year, and could well be quicker than Ferrari and lotus. Bookmark if you like.


I suppose the reason I am so harsh is because Mercedes bought a championship winning team, and then watched the entire thing go backwards.

I'm not overly optimistic about where this team will be for 2013 with the W04. They have too many cooks in the kitchen at this point.

#2491 mattferg

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:03

I believe they said they would be contending for the championship by year 3. That's since been revised to some unknown date.

All they do is talk. Success is right around the corner every time they open their mouths.


Personally I think they're waiting till 2014, when being a works team will be super-important. As in 2006 when the top 3 teams in the WCC were the 3 works teams of the major engines we have today, I think Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull will be the top 3 finishers in 2014 (in any order). If you look back to 2006 all the customer teams were behind the works teams, and this was the last engine transition year.

Compare this to 2007 when you see customer team Williams beating Toyota.

I guarantee you Merc will be P1 2 or 3 in the WCC come November 2014. Bookmark this :)

#2492 dau

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:21

To me they have seemed too relaxed with their goals since the beginning: "we don´t expect to be at the front in (insert season here)" and, afterwards, too apologetic. When did they plan to be fighting for the championships?

They planned for that in 2010 already.

  • 23 Dec 2009: Schumacher targets 2010 world title: Michael Schumacher says he is gunning for the 'serious stuff' of fighting for the world championship on his F1 return in 2010
  • 16 Feb 2010: Schumacher sure W01 will be strong: Michael Schumacher says he is fully convinced Mercedes GP's W01 car will allow his team to fight for the championship in the 2010 season.
  • 31 Mar 2010: Mercedes confident of big step forward: Mercedes GP believes it is still on course to deliver the step forward in performance it needs to get Nico Rosberg and Michael Schumacher fighting for the world title later in the year.
  • 6 Apr 2010: Fry warns against writing Mercedes off: "We will be strong this year. Whether we can win it, who knows, but I think we will be there or thereabout."
  • 15 Apr 2010: Schumacher insists title still possible: Michael Schumacher still believes that he can fight for the world championship this year, despite his team failing to match pace-setters Red Bull Racing, Ferrari and McLaren so far.
  • 11 May 2010: Mercedes: Too early to rule out title: Mercedes GP CEO Nick Fry says it is still too early to admit defeat in this year's championship despite a slow start to the season.
  • 18 Jun 2010: Brawn: Titles still within reach: Mercedes GP boss Ross Brawn says the championship still remains within striking distance of the German squad despite a slow start to the season.

And the 2010 season was the closest they were to a title after all. Talking about depressing stuff, i think this evolution of headlines about Merc's 2011 winter testing perfectly sums up their progress in every season so far.

1 Feb 2011 Rosberg delighted with new Mercedes
14 Feb 2011 Rosberg still upbeat on Mercedes form
15 Feb 2011 Brawn relaxed about Mercedes form
3 March 2011 Mercedes not panicking over form

Edited by dau, 13 November 2012 - 21:22.


#2493 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 00:07

so Red Bull has a 500 million euro budget...that's just ridiculous, how can you compete against that? no wonder they're opposing the budget cap.

You compete by entering with a 700m euro budget.

Winning is hard.

If you want to win you need to be DETERMINED.

Else you are a grid filler like MercedesAMG team.

#2494 black magic

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:52

this team is on the same page as the other top teams until 2013 underway and we start hearing about where they went wrong again.

double drs only ever was going to be effective in qualifying, ie the q2, q3 portion of the weekend

#2495 moorsey

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:21

It sounds like Mercedes are finally on the same page as the top teams when it comes to the design of the 2013 car. I'm not liking the look of their Coanda effect exhaust. Those cooling vents have to be affecting the airflow. It doesn't seem to have changed since it's inception.


And I don't see it changing "this year". It surely isn't worth expending a lot of energy on the detail of something which they now no the basics when they could use the final races for testing other options which may be of much more benefit to the "build" of the 2013 car.
I think Merc and a lot of other teams will use the RB and Mc shells as the initial designs and will then use the wind tunnels to find air routes to improve them further.
Everyone will be looking for hundredths of a second.

#2496 Sakae

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:25

(andrewf1 @ Nov 5 2012, 17:11)
...so Red Bull has a 500 million euro budget...that's just ridiculous, how can you compete against that? no wonder they're opposing the budget cap.


You compete by entering with a 700m euro budget. Else you are a grid filler like MercedesAMG team.


I have seen a lot of gestimates for RBR (around range EUR 200 - 240), but never this high, unless one would be adding (possible, but not well documented) shared and expanded research with TR. Ferrari was also high. Is this only rhetorical discussion or people having a business source for those numbers?

It is doubtful that Mercedes-Benz at this stage would engage in spending war unless current budget performance is settled, and it would never go to the levels mentioned, because at one point you need healthy synergy of ideas with operations, and as seen on McLaren example this year, your design might be OK, but wheels fall off in the pit; this Merc team has some gaps to fill everywhere as part of normal team's evolution, not just in design.

Edited by Sakae, 14 November 2012 - 08:27.


#2497 BoschKurve

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:18

One has to also factor in whatever is being spent at Red Bull Technology. Even if the team on paper is only spending whatever is claimed, they are spending plenty at their other company.

#2498 Sakae

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:36

Interesting.

Dieter Zetsche, the chairman of Mercedes’ parent Daimler, has denied reports he has approved an increase in the F1 team’s budget for 2013.

http://www.forumula1...1-budget-boost/


#2499 korzeniow

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:43

Interesting.

Dieter Zetsche, the chairman of Mercedes’ parent Daimler, has denied reports he has approved an increase in the F1 team’s budget for 2013.

http://www.forumula1...1-budget-boost/


Are the divers salaries included in this budget? Because with hamilton coming there could be less money on the car development.

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#2500 Sakae

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:00

This "budget" talk is full of ambiguity. Dr. Zetsche might be correctly stating that he hasn't approved budget increase, but this might not means that more money will be spend, if re-allocated from other activities. He has to keep differing interests happy, yet ensure that F1 remains supported. Whole thing is pretty fuzzy how this team's budet compares with benchmark teams. I do remain convinced, that with current level of spending they can do much better, because I am looking at Sauber with presumably lower budget, yet they are on Merc's tail. That alone is very suggestive that not everything is working as it should for money they have at Brackley. Next large leap I would expect is in 2014.

Edited by Sakae, 16 November 2012 - 09:01.