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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2651 valachus

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:27

Guy elsewhere on the internet made some interesting comments (can't vouch for truthfulness, but seem pretty coherent IMO):

Got chatting to a mercedes guy based in brackley this morn on the train (i noticed his id that he had round his neck) who appreciated i was quite knowledgeable on formula 1 and when talking about the disaster that was the mercedes austin gp he revealed some interesting info about the weekend and what mercedes were upto. Apparently the new coanda exhausts are producing significantly more rear downforce on the car but are also significantly more fuel hungary meaning that whilst the benifits are clear to see in qualifying the penalty during the race is also very heavy to the extent that schumacher(with coanda) had to start the race with 23 KG more fuel than rosberg(non coanda) Other teams have also found the coandas thirsty but have had 6+ months to work on solutions to bring fuel consumption back to nearly conventional exhausts levels. Mercedes reckon schumachers car had at least 18-20KG more fuel in it than the cars around him which in terms of laptime was a penalty of 6-8 tenths per lap in the early stages which is why he was such a sitting duck in the early stages of the race, infact he told me that it was lap 10 before schumacher did a lap where he never had to leave the racing line which with the dust offline to added to his problems. Another interesting thing he told me was that their was no real requirement to stop michael for the 2nd time and that the hard tyres he had would have easily got him to the end but with both drivers having no hope of points they decided to do a back to back with both cars as rosberg had just put on a new set of mediums and was in clear air so they wanted to see if the coandas gained enough laptime back on schumachers car compared to rosberg even though he had harder tyres and more fuel on board...



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#2652 BigCHrome

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:20

^ I can't really believe that, especially such a big difference in fuel consumption.

#2653 race addicted

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:33

Guy elsewhere on the internet made some interesting comments (can't vouch for truthfulness, but seem pretty coherent IMO):


Interesting, but 23 kgs more sounds almost unbelievable, doesn't it? That's close to 15% more.

#2654 stanga

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:40

Interesting, but 23 kgs more sounds almost unbelievable, doesn't it? That's close to 15% more.


Schumacher did look like he was driving a car with tires that had done 50 laps. He looked so slow.

It reminded me a bit of how the McLaren looked earlier in the season. Where Lewis would be on the defensive for a good few laps after the first corner and everyone looked faster. Did McLaren suffer from having to fuel the car more as it refined its exhaust system?

Something changed in Hungary, I think? Lewis stopped Vettel heading off into the distance and started roping him in.

#2655 Urawa

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:51

When the Coanda came up I remember some said the difference could be up to 10%.
23 kg sounds a lot though but it might explain the extreme overheating of the rears

Edited by Urawa, 19 November 2012 - 16:53.


#2656 korzeniow

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:53

Guy elsewhere on the internet made some interesting comments (can't vouch for truthfulness, but seem pretty coherent IMO):


Well, Rosberg ahd better pace than Schumacher after their last stop so you can conclude that their Coanda is worth nothing

#2657 Disgrace

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 17:26

Guy elsewhere on the internet made some interesting comments (can't vouch for truthfulness, but seem pretty coherent IMO):


I find that highly plausible.

#2658 george1981

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:19

Even though the comments about Mercedes seem plausible, I can't imagine a Mercedes employee discussing things so openly on a train to a stranger.

#2659 valachus

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:47

Even though the comments about Mercedes seem plausible, I can't imagine a Mercedes employee discussing things so openly on a train to a stranger.

Could go either way, I suppose. However I think that the specifics can't be too obscure to the rest of the teams, they've been there, done that. Not really top secret stuff.
Schumacher was nevertheless dead slow in the beginning of the race, from what I remember looking at live timing he was about 3 seconds slower per lap than the leaders of the race for a good part of the first stint - I think he was doing medium-high 1.47s while the leaders were doing medium-low 1.44s (sorry but can't find any site with graphical post-race analysis right now).

Edited by valachus, 19 November 2012 - 19:49.


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#2660 Paa

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:10

Even though the comments about Mercedes seem plausible, I can't imagine a Mercedes employee discussing things so openly on a train to a stranger.


Yeah, because the team has shown so much professionalism recently... :lol:

#2661 BoschKurve

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:20

It pains me to say it, but I think some serious questions need to start being answered of Ross Brawn. Ross had terrific success at Ferrari, but in a different role to the one he now occupies at Mercedes. I remember when Ross came in at Honda nothing much happened for ages apart from he got hold of some nice green trousers, but
Jenson was forever bemoaning the lack of improvement to the car.

Yes yes I know all about 2009, but that was a combination of some tricky rule interpreting and a HUGE amount of money being thrown at the car by Honda over about a year. The car then slid alarmingly down the grid once the other teams had caught up.

Mercedes is a failing project. If Lewis Hamilton turns out not to be magic after all, and the car Michael was running in Texas is in any way indicative of the W04, I think Mercedes should have a very close look at their management structure.


This is how I've always felt to a degree.

Ross's expertise has to be seriously called into question. Back when he was Mr. Mosley's representative to the preferred winner at Benetton and then Ferrari, what exactly was he doing there? You'd think that Mr. Mosley's Bicester machinist might've learned a thing or two really during those stints? MGP is one colossally inept F1 team, and the W03 is just further proof they've got no idea where they are going with this car.

I'm seriously puzzled by the people who seem to think the W04 will be any better than the W01, W02, and W03 were. They've got a real veritable all-star team of engineers there in Brackley, and the car continues to slide backwards? All of the customer cars have shown more improvement than anything the team has come up.

It's always one excuse after another. I remember when they spent 3 months without a single update to the W03 and then had a seemingly new excuse every week for what they were doing. Ross was singing how it was just a matter of how the rear tire wear had to be understood, and then we'd see the W03 looking like a contender again....all whilst every other team seemed to have a decent grasp on the tire wear. It makes me wonder what the three kings were doing the whole summer.

Maybe someone should go ring up John Barnard and see if he's sick of making furniture yet?

#2662 baddog

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:35

I'm fairly certain that rightly or wrongly the Mercedes technical team have wondered whether the car's lack of performance is partly due to their drivers' inability to work the tires. Well next year there will be no excuses and that is extremely important for the development of the car.


You think a team hired Lewis Hamilton in order to be sure the driver could work the tyres to their best? That seems.... unlikely.

#2663 BoschKurve

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:40

You think a team hired Lewis Hamilton in order to be sure the driver could work the tyres to their best? That seems.... unlikely.


The only real reason to hire Hamilton would be to sell this con job of a team to the Daimler board for another couple of seasons.

I have to imagine that were it not for the Hamilton signing and the likely talk of how this transforms this team into a perennial powerhouse, the Daimler board would have shut down this fraud of a team gone back to supplying engines only.

Edited by BoschKurve, 19 November 2012 - 20:41.


#2664 Szoelloe

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:43

Could go either way, I suppose. However I think that the specifics can't be too obscure to the rest of the teams, they've been there, done that. Not really top secret stuff.
Schumacher was nevertheless dead slow in the beginning of the race, from what I remember looking at live timing he was about 3 seconds slower per lap than the leaders of the race for a good part of the first stint - I think he was doing medium-high 1.47s while the leaders were doing medium-low 1.44s (sorry but can't find any site with graphical post-race analysis right now).



http://www.fia.com/e...nformation.aspx

MS from 2nd lap: 1.52.6; 48.8; 48.6; 47.3; 47.4; 47.9; 46.6; 46.2; 47.8; 45.3; 44.9
KR started with .52, from the 3rd lap on he was 2 sec faster than MS and NR
NR was about on MS's speed, but only because he was in heavy traffic low midfield, you can see his flashes of speed in 1-2 laps when he had some free air.
Lh, SV were 2.5-3 sec faster. from the the 3rd lap on. After the 2nd stops, as K has pointed out, NR was slightly faster, but again, I don't remember which of them was in traffic. I fail to see the worth of what they had learned from this, really, but they are the engineers, there has to be some reason data to justify it, because from an onlookers view, it really looked pathetic. I really hope next season will be somewhat better, because this one was the most miserable for me from the 20-odd seasons I have followed quite closely.

Edited by Szoelloe, 19 November 2012 - 20:44.


#2665 seahawk

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:04

they have learned something? I doubt that. If they still do not understand the tires it is bad, if they still do not understand the coanda exhaust it is worse, McLaren is using such an exhaust and a Merc engine since race 1.

#2666 moorsey

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:51

they have learned something? I doubt that. If they still do not understand the tires it is bad, if they still do not understand the coanda exhaust it is worse, McLaren is using such an exhaust and a Merc engine since race 1.


Exactly, and do you not think that having a car which was designed and built around that system might be better/easier to understand than a car which has had to "bolt it on"?
If the new band of engineers have learned from the last few races of 2012 then they should be able to design the aero of the 2013 car around their findings. If that doesn't work then they really are stuffed.

#2667 seahawk

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:53

Exactly, and do you not think that having a car which was designed and built around that system might be better/easier to understand than a car which has had to "bolt it on"?
If the new band of engineers have learned from the last few races of 2012 then they should be able to design the aero of the 2013 car around their findings. If that doesn't work then they really are stuffed.


Well they said that they are fighting with exhaust design and fuel consumption. I believe that is something the engine supplier should be able to learn form McLaren quite easily.

#2668 RedBaron

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:26

Well they said that they are fighting with exhaust design and fuel consumption. I believe that is something the engine supplier should be able to learn form McLaren quite easily.


They've had all year to understand it on the McLaren if that's the case.

#2669 meddo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:56

They've had all year to understand it on the McLaren if that's the case.

And why exactly would McLaren let them know how this system works?

#2670 RedBaron

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:03

And why exactly would McLaren let them know how this system works?


I am as sceptical about the idea that they have strong information from McLaren on how the exhaust works as you are.

#2671 seahawk

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:13

Should Mercedes not know the operating parameters of the Mercedes engiens used by McLaren? So they should know if McLaren needs more fuel, the pressure in the exhaust system and probably other important details of the McLaren exhaust. I would not even be surprised if the exhaust (just the pipes not the bodywork) has been tested on a test rig @ Merc.

#2672 korzeniow

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:17

Should Mercedes not know the operating parameters of the Mercedes engiens used by McLaren? So they should know if McLaren needs more fuel, the pressure in the exhaust system and probably other important details of the McLaren exhaust. I would not even be surprised if the exhaust (just the pipes not the bodywork) has been tested on a test rig @ Merc.


also they have to know McLarens engine map

#2673 Timstr11

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:37

Wow. Does anybody really believe that Mercedes has no knowledge about how to minimize fuel usage on their own engine for a required aero effect? The issues they have with coanda are surely aerodynamics related, not engine related. Of course it is linked to how you tune it to blow for maximum effect, but that it is primarily an aero problem. The question is if they have figured out the right place to blow with the right energy for maximum effect, which needs to be balanced with the penalty of extra fuel.

#2674 Massa

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:49

Interesting, but 23 kgs more sounds almost unbelievable, doesn't it? That's close to 15% more.



Schumacher was very very very slow at the start of the race, i even thought he had a problem.

#2675 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:52

And why exactly would McLaren let them know how this system works?


They wouldn't have to. As far as I know, Mercedes have a dedicated team of engineers to look after the engine side of things at Mclaren (much like Renault at Red Bull, Williams etc). They would easily be able to understand how the system works in tandem with the engine and relay the information back to their HQ which would ultimately feed down to the main Mercedes team. I don't see how this could not be done.

Whether it has, I don't know (probably not, as Mercedes are shambolic at making anything work) but it could be done. Quite easily in my opinion if Mercedes wanted it to happen.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 20 November 2012 - 10:55.


#2676 korzeniow

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:48

Wow. Does anybody really believe that Mercedes has no knowledge about how to minimize fuel usage on their own engine for a required aero effect? The issues they have with coanda are surely aerodynamics related, not engine related. Of course it is linked to how you tune it to blow for maximum effect, but that it is primarily an aero problem. The question is if they have figured out the right place to blow with the right energy for maximum effect, which needs to be balanced with the penalty of extra fuel.


Aero problem? I don't think so.

For me it simply looks like BS story

#2677 Timstr11

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:44

Aero problem? I don't think so.

For me it simply looks like BS story

Typical simple thinking to assume it's just about pointing the exhaust to the floor and you're good to go.

Getting the coanda effect right is about aerodynamics.
Tuning and balancing your engine to deliver according to aero requirements is certainly not the problem. I'm sure of that.

Edited by Timstr11, 20 November 2012 - 12:48.


#2678 korzeniow

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:48

Typical simple thinking to assume it's just about pointing the exhaust to the floor and you're good to go.

Getting the coanda effect right is about aerodynamics.
Tuning and balancing your engine to deliver according aero requirements is certainly not the problem. I'm sure of that.


I didn't call you aero theory BS, I call that the theory that Mercedes was caught out by this fuel consumption problem.

#2679 Timstr11

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:55

I didn't call you aero theory BS, I call that the theory that Mercedes was caught out by this fuel consumption problem.

Ok. Then I agree with you on that.

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#2680 ali_M

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:26

I've been gutted by MGP's performance in Austin. I've never seen anything like that from a team that qualified that well.

Anyway, to be as fair as possible, 2010 and 2011 were better years in that though the cars weren't great from the start, they did manage to maintain a relative performance level with the other teams for the duration of the seasons. Wouldn't you agree?

There is some degree of hope there still for them. However, I'll not be holding my breath to be frank. It's just that if they do improve, it would not really surprise me.

#2681 Lelouch

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:50

Ok time to post here again after 7-8 months I think. Back then I was wondering if something was fundementally wrong with the W03's design (that was after Malaysia).

Some thoughts on the Coanda and their in-season development:

IIRC they raced it for the first time in Singapore right? And the first time they tested was in Magny-Cours Y.D.T? Considering the fact that after 6-8 weeks the update is still at this point of development I fail to understand the reasons behind its early deployment. If it was a bet to gather as much data as possible in order to better understand and improve I don't know if it's worth it considering the fact that with one race to go they are pretty much clueless. I understand that they want to switch focus to 2013, but it especially this year if you have a problem in your car there is high chance it will move on to next year's car. And unfortunately for Mercedes their problems for the last 3 years have something in common: tyres & rear downforce as far as I understand.

Also, I would love to know what data exactly do the F1 teams gather from track action and how does this alter the work done in the factory. Hopefully at some point in the future Mercedes will be able to bring an update mid-season which will answer questions rather than raise even more. I guess their new signings are focusing on that direction because their technical team up to now has done a pretty bad job in understanding what exactly is going on. Personally, I believe that this is more of a factory-related task. After all it's all about physics and maths, evaluating and experimenting with the designs and if you have 3 years to understand the nature of the problem in order to proceed to the solution I think you have to somehow do it no matter how hard it is.

For me that's where their future success will depend on, since they can produce a car with potential, but never maximize it or find out what it lacks. I think now is the time to turn the tables but quite frankly my opinion is that Mercedes beating RB and Mclaren over the course of a season is an extremely difficult task. Ferrari is a question mark for me and Lotus even more. I would like to be proved wrong in order to have an even more spicy championship and because I don't like watching smart people being laughed at.

Cheers!

#2682 Diablobb81

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:53

Considering the fact that after 6-8 weeks the update is still at this point of development I fail to understand the reasons behind its early deployment.


Early deployment? They postponed it for several races to better understand the tires.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't tragic.

#2683 Lelouch

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:58

Early deployment? They postponed it for several races to better understand the tires.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't tragic.

You are right maybe i should call it premature or something. What I am trying to say is that if it's not at the performance/development level you want and will just be even more confusing there is no reason to race with it in my eyes. They couldn't solve the tyre issues without coanda but decided to bring a new and unknown parameter into play.

#2684 BoschKurve

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:59

I've been gutted by MGP's performance in Austin. I've never seen anything like that from a team that qualified that well.

Anyway, to be as fair as possible, 2010 and 2011 were better years in that though the cars weren't great from the start, they did manage to maintain a relative performance level with the other teams for the duration of the seasons. Wouldn't you agree?

There is some degree of hope there still for them. However, I'll not be holding my breath to be frank. It's just that if they do improve, it would not really surprise me.


If there is anything I've learned about this team, it's that there is no hope for them now, or in the future.

I really think the only way they're going to field a competitive car is if they rework the entire organizational structure of the team. I'd start by firing Ross. It's more than obvious he is in over his head and has no idea what to do here.

#2685 george1981

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:18

Earlier in the year there was a clarification of the engine maps I got this from crash.net:

According to reports by BBC Sport the new rule asks teams to 'nominate any one engine map used in the first four races of the season as a reference map'.

“Above 6,000rpm, the maximum engine torque may vary by no more than +/- 2% (from the reference map),” the clarification reads, “and the ignition angle may vary by no more than 2.5%.”


I remember at the time it was mentioned that teams that hadn't run a Coanda exhaust in the first 4 races were likely to be penalised if they tried to run a Coanda exhaust later because they wouldn't have as much scope to change their exhaust maps as the teams who had been running Coanda exhausts from the start.

This seemed to be a team not an engine supplier problem.

#2686 Timstr11

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:36

Earlier in the year there was a clarification of the engine maps I got this from crash.net:



I remember at the time it was mentioned that teams that hadn't run a Coanda exhaust in the first 4 races were likely to be penalised if they tried to run a Coanda exhaust later because they wouldn't have as much scope to change their exhaust maps as the teams who had been running Coanda exhausts from the start.

This seemed to be a team not an engine supplier problem.

I read somewhere that the rule allowed Mercedes to use a customer's engine map as a reference.

#2687 spacekid

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:40

I read somewhere that the rule allowed Mercedes to use a customer's engine map as a reference.


They probably decided to use FI's instead of McLarens :p

#2688 Timstr11

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:43

They probably decided to use FI's instead of McLarens :p

Force India is a bit faster so..

#2689 BiH

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:20

Schumacher was very very very slow at the start of the race, i even thought he had a problem.


If you search on youtube schumacher onboard (don't want to post link since jackass FOM will remove it right away) first 20 minutes of race with Michael onboard,

from the obvious Michael doesn't have grip at all it was all plow understeer, Schumacher was very slow picking up with throttle for first 4-5 laps and when he did the rears were spinning hence the overcooked rears.

If that new exhaust was creating that much downforce, WO3 would have no problem heating up tires.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the car.

Edited by BiH, 20 November 2012 - 15:22.


#2690 SenorSjon

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:20

I don't get it. The car was quite fast and then they concentrated on tires. What if they developed the car further and considered that one extra stop is just the way to go? And live with that? They loose about 20 seconds in a race for that. Now they develop a car that is ~2 minutes slower than the leaders in the end and they still fail to cure the tire problems. They tried one stop iin Spa, which was absolutely hilarious. They know they chew tires, so lets try to make them last longer than anyone else. :confused: They better bring the China model to the Brazilian GP. Couldn't get any worse.

This team is a joke and I already saw a Brawn post: next years car will better!

In hindsight, Brawn was (bar '09) never the winning team boss. It was Briatore @ Benetton and Todt @ Ferrari. The Daimler patience is going a long way with him, but he hasn't got the edge in anything on that team. If Daimler wants to continue, better move to Germany and use your best factory guys in stead of those Brackley monkeys.



#2691 BoschKurve

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:50

I don't get it. The car was quite fast and then they concentrated on tires. What if they developed the car further and considered that one extra stop is just the way to go? And live with that? They loose about 20 seconds in a race for that. Now they develop a car that is ~2 minutes slower than the leaders in the end and they still fail to cure the tire problems. They tried one stop iin Spa, which was absolutely hilarious. They know they chew tires, so lets try to make them last longer than anyone else. :confused: They better bring the China model to the Brazilian GP. Couldn't get any worse.

This team is a joke and I already saw a Brawn post: next years car will better!

In hindsight, Brawn was (bar '09) never the winning team boss. It was Briatore @ Benetton and Todt @ Ferrari. The Daimler patience is going a long way with him, but he hasn't got the edge in anything on that team. If Daimler wants to continue, better move to Germany and use your best factory guys in stead of those Brackley monkeys.


Ross doesn't know the first thing about running a team.

If he did, this idiocy with a design-by-committee would have ended.

The only chance I see for this team is if they just moved everything to Stuttgart or somewhere near. As Ferrari found out all those years ago with John Barnard, a Ferrari is not made in England. MGP is just a British team with a silver paint job, that bears little in common with the Mercedes F1 team of the 1950s.

#2692 ivand911

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:57

For sure we should see any improvement from all Technical Directors in MGP. Some of them are there for more than a year. And we saw only steady declining.
James Key moved to Sauber, we saw improvement, he build very good car. He move to STR, we saw improvement again only for some months he is there. Key did very good job at FI too before Sauber.
And from Mercedes gurus there isn't any use. They have all year to work on the car. Base car didn't look so bad. Development prove negative. It is not like you can't make changes on the car this year, if you want you can build new car if you are serious. Ferrari turn bad car in very good car in a month. I know they have different budget, but still.

Edited by ivand911, 20 November 2012 - 17:03.


#2693 meddo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:29

How long it took Red Bull into championship winning machine that it is now? Just count the car make numbers. Now, go three years back.
And yes, they had Newey since 2006. It just take time for a team to glue together. Especially if it¨s such a high tech dependent team in an environment which never stand still, and somehow you decided to do a fair play and cut staff and costs, while everyone else increased theirs. That is the only blame and naive behaviour I am willing to contribute to Ross Brawn.

#2694 Jon83

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:40

What a miserable end to the season. The start looked good, if not convincing, but to have gone this far backwards is staggering.

By and large, they look to be the slowest of the 'non-new' teams.

#2695 BoschKurve

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:30

How long it took Red Bull into championship winning machine that it is now? Just count the car make numbers. Now, go three years back.
And yes, they had Newey since 2006. It just take time for a team to glue together. Especially if it¨s such a high tech dependent team in an environment which never stand still, and somehow you decided to do a fair play and cut staff and costs, while everyone else increased theirs. That is the only blame and naive behaviour I am willing to contribute to Ross Brawn.


Yes, and the teams that developed fairly solid designs historically speaking had a strong team principal, and a strong chief designer. Too many cooks in the kitchen so to speak will harm a team more than it will help.

If I were MGP, I would go hat in hand to John Barnard and try to do anything possible to coax him out of retirement because it would still be infinitely more preferable to this joke of a design/engineering team they are fielding now.

Were I in charge of this team, I would install Flavio Briatore or Dave Richards as team principal, and try to get John Barnard as the chief designer. Someone with a backbone needs to be running this team. If you do an overhaul of the organizational structure, it's going to mean the short-term will be a sacrifice, but if it means the long-term prospects of this team include real success, then it is worth it.

Keep in mind, that Mercedes thought they were inheriting a championship winner and I have no doubt Dr. Z wanted this team because it was coming off the championship winning year of 2009. That's why I say this team is the biggest con job I've ever seen. Dr. Z got conned into buying it for a bargain price by that fat journo slob Haug, and Brawn. They have 1 race win to show for the whole thing...and that race win came at the peak of the Pirelli Lottery Sweepstakes. I've heard every excuse on the planet for why they can't deliver or continue to fail, and it is all rubbish.

#2696 rage2

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:13

So glad I traded in my Merc recently - It was beginning to depress me.... I have had a couple previously but I can't believe that I'll ever buy another. Rightly or wrongly, I just associate them with failure these days.

That's too bad. Mercedes may be doing bad in F1 today, but they've been awesome in the road car department.

#2697 exmayol

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:59

That's too bad. Mercedes may be doing bad in F1 today, but they've been awesome in the road car department.


Awesome or not is purely subjective. Despite some nice designs most road Mercedes cars are overbloated pigs targeting audience that care about looks / prestige more than about actual driving.

#2698 sharo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 23:20

Awesome or not is purely subjective. Despite some nice designs most road Mercedes cars are overbloated pigs targeting audience that care about looks / prestige more than about actual driving.

:up:
Nothing to do with the past glory and glorious models.

#2699 Longtimefan

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 23:28

If Merc really are planning to give Michael his car after brazil, If I was Michael I'd torch the damn thing or drop it in a lake.


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#2700 exmayol

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 00:08

If Merc really are planning to give Michael his car after brazil, If I was Michael I'd torch the damn thing or drop it in a lake.


Good that you are not him. He can sell it and donate money to some starving kids ;)