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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2701 black magic

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:18

who would by it?

worth more as scrap metal

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#2702 Shambolic

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:55

who would by it?

worth more as scrap metal


Which given it's mostly made of composites, says it all when it comes to this shiny lemon.

#2703 George Costanza

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:06

Yes, and the teams that developed fairly solid designs historically speaking had a strong team principal, and a strong chief designer. Too many cooks in the kitchen so to speak will harm a team more than it will help.

If I were MGP, I would go hat in hand to John Barnard and try to do anything possible to coax him out of retirement because it would still be infinitely more preferable to this joke of a design/engineering team they are fielding now.

Were I in charge of this team, I would install Flavio Briatore or Dave Richards as team principal, and try to get John Barnard as the chief designer. Someone with a backbone needs to be running this team. If you do an overhaul of the organizational structure, it's going to mean the short-term will be a sacrifice, but if it means the long-term prospects of this team include real success, then it is worth it.

Keep in mind, that Mercedes thought they were inheriting a championship winner and I have no doubt Dr. Z wanted this team because it was coming off the championship winning year of 2009. That's why I say this team is the biggest con job I've ever seen. Dr. Z got conned into buying it for a bargain price by that fat journo slob Haug, and Brawn. They have 1 race win to show for the whole thing...and that race win came at the peak of the Pirelli Lottery Sweepstakes. I've heard every excuse on the planet for why they can't deliver or continue to fail, and it is all rubbish.


John Bernard is long gone from F1. He hasn't been in F1 since early 2000s, I believe. And John hasn't been too kind to F1 since the early 1990s with Mansell and Prost at Ferrari (and Alesi in 94-95) It took Michael Schumacher to actually get it going for them but (Schu loved the 1995 Ferrari and said he would have possibly won the championship with that car in 1995).

They might as well bring in, Ross's old friend, Rory Byrne... But he's at Ferrari as a consultant, I believe.

Edited by George Costanza, 21 November 2012 - 05:10.


#2704 rage2

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:01

Awesome or not is purely subjective. Despite some nice designs most road Mercedes cars are overbloated pigs targeting audience that care about looks / prestige more than about actual driving.

Most of the AMG line caters to drivers. They must be doing something right if their car comes second to a Porsche in the 2012 best drivers car comparison.

#2705 KiloWatt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:53

Awesome or not is purely subjective. Despite some nice designs most road Mercedes cars are overbloated pigs targeting audience that care about looks / prestige more than about actual driving.


And what you're saying is not subjective? What do you prefer, if I may ask?

#2706 Kingshark

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:16

My God that was horrendous.

I really don't know what to say.

Pathetic display. Nothing else to describe it.

What a team, really.

Petrov is faster than you, Michael.

#2707 exmayol

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:21

And what you're saying is not subjective? What do you prefer, if I may ask?


I am sure C63 AMG is a blast to drive, assuming there is enough road to push it, yet the concept of 4000lbs luxury rocket does not appeal to me. There are certainly some motor heads appreciating AMG philosophy and all but they are not a substantial representation of Mercedes customer base.

My preference is just as subjective and has nothing to do with MGP so I'd rather not go there.

#2708 Rasputin

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:38

Ross doesn't know the first thing about running a team.

If he did, this idiocy with a design-by-committee would have ended.
...

That much is obvious, the 2009 rule-bender of a car was a self-playing piano and I doubt if Ross Brawn had any hands-on management experience prior to Honda?

Appointing a Technical-, a Technology- as well as an Engineering Director in the same office is a tell-tale of pathetic naivety and utter management incompetence.

#2709 Sakae

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:39

Awesome or not is purely subjective. Despite some nice designs most road Mercedes cars are overbloated pigs targeting audience that care about looks / prestige more than about actual driving.

Not everyone was born with appreciation of elegance.

Edited by Sakae, 21 November 2012 - 08:40.


#2710 KiloWatt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:10

I am sure C63 AMG is a blast to drive, assuming there is enough road to push it, yet the concept of 4000lbs luxury rocket does not appeal to me. There are certainly some motor heads appreciating AMG philosophy and all but they are not a substantial representation of Mercedes customer base.

My preference is just as subjective and has nothing to do with MGP so I'd rather not go there.


For the sake of the thread, let's just agree to disagree.

#2711 Urawa

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:33

No Coanda exhaust for Merc in Sao Paulo according to AMuS :lol: :D


#2712 korzeniow

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 15:34

No Coanda exhaust for Merc in Sao Paulo according to AMuS :lol: :D


Seems logical when you consider that Rosberg was faster than Schumacher in the race

#2713 rage2

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 15:43

I am sure C63 AMG is a blast to drive, assuming there is enough road to push it, yet the concept of 4000lbs luxury rocket does not appeal to me. There are certainly some motor heads appreciating AMG philosophy and all but they are not a substantial representation of Mercedes customer base.

So you've never even driven one and just going by curb weight. Got it.

For the sake of the thread, let's just agree to disagree.

:up:

Anyways, back on topic. Hopefully MS has a good final race to cap off his 2nd career. As a McLaren fan, and very anti-Ferrari-MS back in the day, he's grown on me during the last 3 years. Good luck Michael!

#2714 Szoelloe

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 15:43

That much is obvious, the 2009 rule-bender of a car was a self-playing piano and I doubt if Ross Brawn had any hands-on management experience prior to Honda?

Appointing a Technical-, a Technology- as well as an Engineering Director in the same office is a tell-tale of pathetic naivety and utter management incompetence.


Short-sighted, uninformed, and slightly dumb or if not, than deliberately malevolent opinion. At the least a year too early to even evaluate his work as TP. It is entirely possible you will eat your hat from next season. The nick is telling though.

#2715 Shiroo

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 15:49

No Coanda exhaust for Merc in Sao Paulo according to AMuS :lol: :D

and smn still believe that W04 will be a good car. They can't make even exhaust working after so many races, test etc. And Coanda in next season will be MUST HAVE. Sweet god, people working in mercedes need to seriously use all that money for parties.


#2716 Timstr11

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:13

According to AMuS, the Austin experiment shows that the exhaust gases heat the rear tyres.
It does bring downforce, but on a longer run it's to the detriment of the rear tyres.

I'm not worried about Coanda as it's a very iterative process to make it blow in the right place in the right way (you only have to look at what Redbull went through with coanda during the first half of the season). Merc stopped working on the aerodynamics of this car since August and getting Coanda to work on next year's car will be another iterative process. No need to waste resources on 2012 as next year's car will have a different shape and they have to go through the iteration again. All teams will have to do it.
There's an RRA in place and there's only so much you can do in order not to waste resources.

There's also a crucial 2013 tyre test coming up this friday.
Both cars will run without the exhaust influencing tyre temps, which is important to get a good reading.
Wise move given the circumstances in my opinion.

Edited by Timstr11, 21 November 2012 - 16:15.


#2717 BoschKurve

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:33

That much is obvious, the 2009 rule-bender of a car was a self-playing piano and I doubt if Ross Brawn had any hands-on management experience prior to Honda?

Appointing a Technical-, a Technology- as well as an Engineering Director in the same office is a tell-tale of pathetic naivety and utter management incompetence.


I imagine Ross thought that if Flavor Flav and Todt could do it, how hard could the whole thing really be?

As soon as the Brawn GP needed to match pace with the other teams in development, the car started looking not like a world-beater.

But perhaps it is me, I wouldn't trust an ex-March Engineering machinist with my Grand Prix team. On the other hand, maybe if I needed something fabricated...

#2718 BoschKurve

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:36

Short-sighted, uninformed, and slightly dumb or if not, than deliberately malevolent opinion. At the least a year too early to even evaluate his work as TP. It is entirely possible you will eat your hat from next season. The nick is telling though.


Actually we have 5 seasons worth of Ross as TP. After all Honda = Brawn = Mercedes. Ross has never done anything worth writing home about in F1 as a TP.

I'd wager Rasputin won't be doing any hat eating in 2013 as the W04 is to be a continuation of the past abominations; W01 thru W03.

#2719 Szoelloe

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:44

Actually we have 5 seasons worth of Ross as TP. After all Honda = Brawn = Mercedes. Ross has never done anything worth writing home about in F1 as a TP.

I'd wager Rasputin won't be doing any hat eating in 2013 as the W04 is to be a continuation of the past abominations; W01 thru W03.


Good. Might as well wrote the same to you too. Its a deal.

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#2720 BoschKurve

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:49

Good. Might as well wrote the same to you too. Its a deal.


We've got about 4 months till Melbourne.

I hope Ross is going to try to come up with new excuses for 2013 instead of the same tired garbage.

With the new tire compounds, I suspect if there was as much difficulty for the team understanding the 2012 compounds, 2013 will be more of the same.

#2721 olliek88

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:54

Actually we have 5 seasons worth of Ross as TP. After all Honda = Brawn = Mercedes. Ross has never done anything worth writing home about in F1 as a TP.

I'd wager Rasputin won't be doing any hat eating in 2013 as the W04 is to be a continuation of the past abominations; W01 thru W03.


Ross might of been TP for a while now but the team as changed massively since '08, it needed to scale down a lot after Honda pulled out and they had minimal finance's in '09 to develop the W01.

Since then its a case of building the team up, both personal and technologies. These things take time, all the changes like Aldo Cost et all joining won't have an immediate effect, they haven't been around long enough to influence the performance, so far. That starts from 2013, more likely they are looking at the new regs in 2014 so its not until then that we can begin to judge Ross as a TP in my opinion.

#2722 andrewf1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:09

According to AMuS, the Austin experiment shows that the exhaust gases heat the rear tyres.
It does bring downforce, but on a longer run it's to the detriment of the rear tyres.

I'm not worried about Coanda as it's a very iterative process to make it blow in the right place in the right way (you only have to look at what Redbull went through with coanda during the first half of the season). Merc stopped working on the aerodynamics of this car since August and getting Coanda to work on next year's car will be another iterative process. No need to waste resources on 2012 as next year's car will have a different shape and they have to go through the iteration again. All teams will have to do it.
There's an RRA in place and there's only so much you can do in order not to waste resources.

There's also a crucial 2013 tyre test coming up this friday.
Both cars will run without the exhaust influencing tyre temps, which is important to get a good reading.
Wise move given the circumstances in my opinion.


Yeah, except that all other (top) teams will run the 2013 tires in Brazil knowing already how the Coanda exhausts influence them. So Merc will be 1 step behind again.
Kind of reminds me of their 'wise' move in the build-up to the 2012 season to test with the old car, losing ground to their rivals and valuable test time.

Edited by andrewf1, 21 November 2012 - 17:13.


#2723 BoschKurve

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:48

Ross might of been TP for a while now but the team as changed massively since '08, it needed to scale down a lot after Honda pulled out and they had minimal finance's in '09 to develop the W01.

Since then its a case of building the team up, both personal and technologies. These things take time, all the changes like Aldo Cost et all joining won't have an immediate effect, they haven't been around long enough to influence the performance, so far. That starts from 2013, more likely they are looking at the new regs in 2014 so its not until then that we can begin to judge Ross as a TP in my opinion.


Except nothing actually changes with Ross in charge.

Since the great double diffuser exploitation of 2009, what has he done really? The DDRS was supposed to be another "can't miss" solution that was going to deliver the W03 into the stratosphere...but that was short-lived like Icarus.

If this team can't even build a competent car with regulations that have stagnated, how could one even expect them to do something in 2014 when things do change?

#2724 Shiroo

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:02

Yeah, except that all other (top) teams will run the 2013 tires in Brazil knowing already how the Coanda exhausts influence them. So Merc will be 1 step behind again.
Kind of reminds me of their 'wise' move in the build-up to the 2012 season to test with the old car, losing ground to their rivals and valuable test time.

excatly. and they still sucked with tyres (and still suck). no matter if coanda is on or out, they still are the team that eats tyres the most

Except nothing actually changes with Ross in charge.

Since the great double diffuser exploitation of 2009, what has he done really? The DDRS was supposed to be another "can't miss" solution that was going to deliver the W03 into the stratosphere...but that was short-lived like Icarus.

If this team can't even build a competent car with regulations that have stagnated, how could one even expect them to do something in 2014 when things do change?

excatly. They are like kid with blindfold. "Maybe this will work!". One year they will hit the jackpot. But like that it will take some time

Edited by Shiroo, 21 November 2012 - 19:05.


#2725 seahawk

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:03

According to AMuS, the Austin experiment shows that the exhaust gases heat the rear tyres.
It does bring downforce, but on a longer run it's to the detriment of the rear tyres.

I'm not worried about Coanda as it's a very iterative process to make it blow in the right place in the right way (you only have to look at what Redbull went through with coanda during the first half of the season). Merc stopped working on the aerodynamics of this car since August and getting Coanda to work on next year's car will be another iterative process. No need to waste resources on 2012 as next year's car will have a different shape and they have to go through the iteration again. All teams will have to do it.
There's an RRA in place and there's only so much you can do in order not to waste resources.

There's also a crucial 2013 tyre test coming up this friday.
Both cars will run without the exhaust influencing tyre temps, which is important to get a good reading.
Wise move given the circumstances in my opinion.


When I read this I am very worried. Just think about the first time McLaren showed their exhaust solution and today Mercedes is not able to make a copy of that solution work and declare that they learned something by the fact, that directing the hot gases towards the tire, does heat them up. Do they have real engineers at Brackley?

And to test next years tires it would make way more sense to use one car with Coanda and one without, so that you see how the tires react. The Mercedes way only makes sense if your coanda exhaust is so completely not working, that you know that results would be worthless. But then we are back to my first paragraph and things look bad as well.

#2726 Timstr11

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:14

When I read this I am very worried. Just think about the first time McLaren showed their exhaust solution and today Mercedes is not able to make a copy of that solution work and declare that they learned something by the fact, that directing the hot gases towards the tire, does heat them up. Do they have real engineers at Brackley?

And to test next years tires it would make way more sense to use one car with Coanda and one without, so that you see how the tires react. The Mercedes way only makes sense if your coanda exhaust is so completely not working, that you know that results would be worthless. But then we are back to my first paragraph and things look bad as well.

Even if it cooks the tyres? Coanda is for adding efficient rear downforce. They can simulate added downforce by running more wing (which would make them slower on the straights as it's inefficient downforce).

#2727 Kingshark

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:46

Don't worry. The next circuit will suit our car better.

#2728 Paa

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:46

Some more, some less, but every other team progressing steadily during the year.
Mercedes after bringing no updates for like half season long, comes up with an upgrade package in Singapore, just to realize several races later that actually it was a step backward.

The funny thing that I'm not even exaggerating, this is what actually happened.


#2729 seahawk

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:03

Even if it cooks the tyres? Coanda is for adding efficient rear downforce. They can simulate added downforce by running more wing (which would make them slower on the straights as it's inefficient downforce).


Yes, but as Scarbs said on f1 technical.net, there are no changes to the exhaust rules for 2013, so every other team will use a coanda solution. ( http://www.f1technic...c...f=6&t=13504 )

And surely Merc will have to use one too. I really see no sense in their decision.

Edited by seahawk, 22 November 2012 - 06:04.


#2730 Timstr11

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:16

Yes, but as Scarbs said on f1 technical.net, there are no changes to the exhaust rules for 2013, so every other team will use a coanda solution. ( http://www.f1technic...c...f=6&t=13504 )

And surely Merc will have to use one too. I really see no sense in their decision.

What I'm saying is that testing the 2013 tyres without the coanda exhaust is not a problem.

#2731 seahawk

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:39

What I'm saying is that testing the 2013 tyres without the coanda exhaust is not a problem.


And I think it is a huge disdadvantage as they will have to use a Coanda exhaust next year, but will test the new tires with a configuration that has no Coanda exhaust. So they can not know how much exhaust heat the 2013 tire is able to take. They will also have no idea in which direction their coanda exhaust has to be modified to fit the new tire.

All other teams will know if their current solution is ok, too hot or if they might be able to risk a little more heat towards the tires for the next years design.

#2732 moorsey

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:19

And I think it is a huge disdadvantage as they will have to use a Coanda exhaust next year, but will test the new tires with a configuration that has no Coanda exhaust. So they can not know how much exhaust heat the 2013 tire is able to take. They will also have no idea in which direction their coanda exhaust has to be modified to fit the new tire.

All other teams will know if their current solution is ok, too hot or if they might be able to risk a little more heat towards the tires for the next years design.


Is it not possible that we are all assuming that the coanda exhaust is the only solution. It seems to be a very good on "at the moment" but there could, and probably already is, an even better solution sitting on a drawing board somewhere [hopefully not on AN's].

In order to come up with a world beating car it is pointless for Merc to simply copy other cars. They need to find another way of improving top speed and using that to create down-force. With that sorted they are free to use the exhaust gasses for extra DF or even just tyre heat.

#2733 seahawk

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:30

Is it not possible that we are all assuming that the coanda exhaust is the only solution. It seems to be a very good on "at the moment" but there could, and probably already is, an even better solution sitting on a drawing board somewhere [hopefully not on AN's].

In order to come up with a world beating car it is pointless for Merc to simply copy other cars. They need to find another way of improving top speed and using that to create down-force. With that sorted they are free to use the exhaust gasses for extra DF or even just tyre heat.


Well, I think any solution will use the exhaust gases to seal the diffusor or find another way to add downforce to the car, so their neutral exhaust solution surely is not the way forward.

#2734 moorsey

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:54

Well, I think any solution will use the exhaust gases to seal the diffusor or find another way to add downforce to the car, so their neutral exhaust solution surely is not the way forward.


I totally agree that the "neutral" exhausts aren't the way forward but I can see that the exhaust gasses "could" be used to seal off the "skirt" and produce even more downforce by doing that than by sealing the diffuser. It would mean using a coanda type effect but directing it through different angles to those currently being used. It would also need a change to the front of the floor and a different rake setting to achieve it but the Merc engineers would solve all that in the blink of an eye.

My point wasn't to criticise what is being done now but to suggest that there may be even better solutions in the pipeline.

#2735 seahawk

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:30

Anyway it is likely that any 2013 solution will direct the exhaust gases (more or less) towards the rear tires and not aim towards the middle of the beam wing. So I think that even their current (failed ?) coanda exhausts could give them valuable data at least by doing a comparison with the neutral exhaust. Which is why I would run both solutions in their place, even if I would know that my current coanda exhaust will "grill" the tires.

Even if I would learn that the 2012 tires are overheating after 3 laps, while the 2013 last longer or shorter, it would give me valuable information on how much heat I can risk to direct towards the tires in 2013.

Edited by seahawk, 22 November 2012 - 09:32.


#2736 Timstr11

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:35

Brawn:

"We want to get more information," he said. "We are committed to those [Coanda] exhaust systems next year, so we want to understand them.
"We want to consolidate the pluses and reduce the minuses. We want to know how the exhaust gas flows around tyres, the effect it has on the engine, and how different exhaust systems affect things.
"It is all about gathering information for us at this stage, and it is more important we do that than anything else."
Brawn thinks Mercedes' form this season has been affected by a mid-season restructure, the benefits of which are taking some time to come through the system.
"I always believe a successful race car is less about some dramatic new design and more about how you've gone about achieving that design and then maintained the development of that design," he said.
It is about having the team function really well, so the ideas are flowing and the developments are flowing and then the car is maintaining its competitiveness.
"We had a pretty good winter, we started the first half of the season pretty strongly.
"The problem we had was we knew the process we had wasn't strong enough over time.
"We decided to restructure the aero group both in terms of facilities and personnel and that has an impact. If you do it over a winter it upsets the car then, but then if you do it over the summer it affects the development."



#2737 Kingshark

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 18:52

Don't worry. The next circuit will suit our car better.

It will. :wave: :up:

#2738 AJFIN

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 19:06

At least we are catching McLaren. :)

#2739 Timstr11

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 19:23

There's also a crucial 2013 tyre test coming up this friday.
Both cars will run without the exhaust influencing tyre temps, which is important to get a good reading.
Wise move given the circumstances in my opinion.

As I predicted.

Haug

"We are definitely starting without [the Coanda exhausts]," said Haug when asked by AUTOSPORT about the plans for this weekend.
"We want to start the tyre tests without any influence. We have proper data that we can compare with what we had at the start of the year, and then we will probably leave it like that."
Haug added that the way the Coanda exhausts were impacting on tyre temperatures left the team feeling that it would gain more running without them.
"We think it still has an influence on heating the tyres," he said. "There is also a little bit of a lack of aero downforce which we could not improve compared to the others.
"We think we will have a more realistic base to what we had at the beginning of the season and we work from there. But it is very clear that you have to have Coanda next year, because it gives you a benefit."



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#2740 ali.unal

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 19:44

As I predicted.

Yes, it is more than logical to go that route, but what Haug said at the end of interview puzzled me:

When asked if there were any plans for the team to switch back to the Coanda exhausts for Saturday, Haug said: "Not currently, no."

Nico Rosberg had a very poor race and qualifying performance in Austin with that old exhaust. They have the numbers surely, but common sense dictates at least one of two drivers would use the Coanda style exhaust in order to cover Sauber. That could end in tears.

#2741 BigCHrome

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 19:46

Nico Rosberg had a very poor race and qualifying performance in Austin with that old exhaust. They have the numbers surely, but common sense dictates at least one of two drivers would use the Coanda style exhaust in order to cover Sauber. That could end in tears.


They don't care about Sauber. It's all about next year.

#2742 baddog

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 19:47

What a joke of a team.. everyone else is racing, they are embarking on a season long series of 60 lap test sessions. Presumably next year they will be developing the 2014 car.

#2743 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 19:49

At least we are catching McLaren. :)


Yup. When the Mclarens lap the Mercedes....they share the same piece of race track.

#2744 10e10

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:04

Yup. When the Mclarens lap the Mercedes....they share the same piece of race track.


:clap:

#2745 Timstr11

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:48

Yes, it is more than logical to go that route, but what Haug said at the end of interview puzzled me:


Nico Rosberg had a very poor race and qualifying performance in Austin with that old exhaust. They have the numbers surely, but common sense dictates at least one of two drivers would use the Coanda style exhaust in order to cover Sauber. That could end in tears.

His race pace was decent, his qualifying terrible. Contrary to MS he lacked the benefit of the coanda generated downforce in qualifying but did not have the overheating rears in the race. Sao Paolo is warm so heating the tyres should not be a problem.

#2746 rallye3

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 21:14

What a joke of a team.. everyone else is racing, they are embarking on a season long series of 60 lap test sessions. Presumably next year they will be developing the 2014 car.


I kind of think they should maybe start working on their 2020 car, might just give them long enough to understand it.

#2747 andrewf1

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 21:24

I kind of think they should maybe start working on their 2020 car, might just give them long enough to understand it.


:lol: :lol: and then they'll scrap it mid-season

#2748 george1981

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 21:46

His race pace was decent, his qualifying terrible. Contrary to MS he lacked the benefit of the coanda generated downforce in qualifying but did not have the overheating rears in the race. Sao Paolo is warm so heating the tyres should not be a problem.


That was something I found peculiar at Austin, in FP3 when it was cooler Rosberg was faster than Schumacher, in qualifying when the track was hotter Schumacher was faster than Rosberg. I would have thought the opposite, Schumacher should have had the advantage in lower temperatures because the exhaust was heating the tyres, whereas Rosberg should have been less hindered when the track was warmer.
Even if MS' advantage in qualifying was due to the extra downforce from the Coanda exhaust, where was this advantage through practice?

I can't explain the difference in pace of the two between FP3 and qualifying. But I can hazard a guess at the difference between qualifying and the race; during the race both cars were fully fuelled with MS carrying more fuel than Rosberg. The extra weight of the fuel put more energy through the tyres and brought Rosberg up to the operating window of the tyres. The extra fuel weight MS was carrying together with the exhaust heating the tyres pushed his tyre temperature out of the operating window and caused the tyres to overheat.

#2749 Torsion

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 22:01

As an outsider, I have to say that it is certainly a bit worrying to see a team as large as Mercedes taking so long to get their heads around the Coanda exhaust, when a team like Lotus which is much smaller, got theirs working withing a couple of weekends.



#2750 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 22:09

As an outsider, I have to say that it is certainly a bit worrying to see a team as large as Mercedes taking so long to get their heads around the Coanda exhaust, when a team like Lotus which is much smaller, got theirs working withing a couple of weekends.


If the problem is not a lack of quality staff then it is surely poor facilities and resources. Just like KFC will never be able to produce haute cusine....

Maybe the design team is brilliant but the wind tunnels give the wrong data, 50% scale models are not represenative enough, calibrations are wrong etc.

Let us not forget the team do not have a winning pedigree and that is for a reason, their facilites are not championship winning.

I dont see how a move from 50% scale to 60% will do much when Ferrari et al are already running close to 100%.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 22 November 2012 - 22:10.