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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2751 eronrules

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 22:49

there was a rumor that Schumi would basically drive 2013 spec car at interlagos (as much as permitted with the current chassis) ... any truth in that??? i'd keep a close eye, specially if they bring Lotus style passive DRS to brazil.

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#2752 bonjon1979a

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 23:31

Full scale being the actual car as it would be outrageously expensive to create a 100% model only for a couple of hours testing.

Um, are you being serious? For 100% scale wind tunnel testing they just wheel the car into the tunnel...

#2753 amppatel

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 23:40

Um, are you being serious? For 100% scale wind tunnel testing they just wheel the car into the tunnel...


Are you being serious? Aerodynamics is as much a guessing game as a science! They need to try many aero parts and out of those pick the best ones and then develop those more, and that goes on forever!

#2754 seahawk

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:29

The comments by Haug are scarry imho.

He agrees that they do need a coanda exhaust in 2013, yet they prefer to test the tires using the early 2012 neutral exhaust, so that they can get a comparison between early 2012 and the 2013 tires. For me this means that they know that the current coanda exhaust is fundamentally flawed and can not even be uses as a baseline for tnext years design. Which means 2 things:

1. the upgrades for this years cars totally failed
2. next years exhaust will be hit or miss, as they lack any reliable data to work with

Not good imho.

And I am not trying to bash them but in my work experience I would always want to collect data for a solution as close to my planed design as possible, because even if I do change many things, it is still better to share basic layout decisions, when testing new parts (tires), than using a fundamentally different solutions to test the new parts in this configuration.

For me their decisions means that they only know the difference between the tires with the neutral exhaust. But I see no logical way to use this data for a coanda exhaust.

Imagine the car is better with the new tires. So they would know they have more grip, they might also be able to see if the tires heat-up faster or if they overheat faster. But they have no way of knowing how the tires react when being heated by the exhaust gases.
Would they use one car with the neutral setting and one with coanda, they could compare this and see the influence of the exhaust gases, even if the exhaust is not working as expected.

The worst scenario is that they fail to reach the operating window of the new tires during the test, which means they would gain no knowledge at all.

Edited by seahawk, 23 November 2012 - 06:39.


#2755 Timstr11

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:38

Um, are you being serious? For 100% scale wind tunnel testing they just wheel the car into the tunnel...

Yes, they wheel the car into the tunnel. Not sure if and why you dispute that.

Edited by Timstr11, 23 November 2012 - 06:39.


#2756 Torsion

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:40

Yes, they wheel the car into the tunnel. Not sure if and why you dispute that.


I think the point is that 100% scale testing has a different purpose to 60% scale testing.

Sure, when testing at 100%, you can wheel in the car, but this doesn't replace the 60% testing which is where new ideas initially get tested after CFD. Building a 60% component is cheaper than the actual thing, and faster, as they use different materials.

Also I believe there is a very low limit on the number of hours of 100% wind tunnel testing which is allowed, and this is taken out of the allocated straight line tests. So it is in fact considered an alternative to a straight line test.



#2757 sharo

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:30

Mercedes tunnel is 100% scale capable but for some reason they used 50% and not the allowed 60% for long time.

#2758 Timstr11

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:34

I think the point is that 100% scale testing has a different purpose to 60% scale testing.

Sure, when testing at 100%, you can wheel in the car, but this doesn't replace the 60% testing which is where new ideas initially get tested after CFD. Building a 60% component is cheaper than the actual thing, and faster, as they use different materials.

Also I believe there is a very low limit on the number of hours of 100% wind tunnel testing which is allowed, and this is taken out of the allocated straight line tests. So it is in fact considered an alternative to a straight line test.

Agree. See my posts above.

#2759 AJFIN

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:42

I can imagine the team radio conversation during the race.

MSC: Wow, guys! The balance is unbelievable, finally the car is working as it should!
Engineer: Michael, it's a puncture. I repeat, left rear puncture. Box this lap.

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#2760 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:49

Mercedes tunnel is 100% scale capable but for some reason they used 50% and not the allowed 60% for long time.


This is how they used to operate in the BAR/HONDA days also, and the results were very hit and miss from season to season which indicated (a) a lack of understanding or know-how of manipulation of the regulations (b) unable to do anything about it or © inadequate facilities to design, develop and utilise new components.

IMO it WAS and IS still a mixture of those things.

I didn't realise the restrictions on the 100% model scaling. Anyway, the other points still standing, they have only just understood that the 60% scaling is more beneficial, which begs the question; why didn't they do that under Honda with their mega millions?

:confused:

#2761 rog

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:01

That was something I found peculiar at Austin, in FP3 when it was cooler Rosberg was faster than Schumacher, in qualifying when the track was hotter Schumacher was faster than Rosberg.



Rosberg drove with coanda exhaust in FP3!!! And that's why he was much faster there.

#2762 F1ultimate

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:11

Given that Merc have pretty much written off next year, I wouldn't be surprised if this weekend is mostly used to text next years car.

#2763 Rasputin

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:21

Ross might of been TP for a while now but the team as changed massively since '08, it needed to scale down a lot after Honda pulled out and they had minimal finance's in '09 to develop the W01.

Since then its a case of building the team up, both personal and technologies. These things take time, all the changes like Aldo Cost et all joining won't have an immediate effect, they haven't been around long enough to influence the performance, so far. That starts from 2013, more likely they are looking at the new regs in 2014 so its not until then that we can begin to judge Ross as a TP in my opinion.


But the point is that Daimler did not consciously invest in a rebuilding-project, both Zetsche and Schumacher were was obviously convinced that they had bought a WDC and WCC team.

The truth is that it was, and still is, a bullsh*t team filled with bullsh*t people and nobody in charge, the only reason for 2009 was that Brawn's old employer allowed them to cheat.

#2764 Tardis40

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:08

Who do you think will (and should) get the lower car number for 2013?

A case could be made for either driver. hamilton, because he is much higher in the championship and rosberg, because he has seniority at MGP.

Personally I think rosberg should get it.

Edited by Tardis40, 23 November 2012 - 16:11.


#2765 amppatel

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:16

Who do you think will (and should) get the lower car number for 2013?

A case could be made for either driver. hamilton, because he is much higher in the championship and rosberg, because he has seniority at MGP.

Personally I think rosberg should get it.


Rosberg, no contest.

#2766 jrg19

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:55

Looking alright as it stands, good top 10 qualifying then keep position in a wet race?

#2767 jrg19

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:56

Rosberg will be car number 9, or he should be.

#2768 1Devil1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 16:57

Looking alright as it stands, good top 10 qualifying then keep position in a wet race?


Somehow they look competitive. good top ten position would be great and than a thunderstorm. We could dream about a last Schumacher podium :yawnface:

#2769 spacekid

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:07

Given that Merc have pretty much written off next year, I wouldn't be surprised if this weekend is mostly used to text next years car.


At some point during this weekend I'm expecting Ross Brawn to announce the team are stopping all development work for the 2013 car and are instead concentrating all resources for the 2014 car.

#2770 DutchCruijff

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:10

The only thing that will save this weekend and offer a glimmer of hope is for Schumacher to string together a top 6 lap, which is quite possible, on Saturday and then bank on the rain on Sunday to make up places.

#2771 RedBaron

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:36

Not looking too bad... so far.

According to Sky they've blocked up the double DRS, either because they think they're better off without it fullstop or because if it rains on Sunday it won't gain them anything. Again, according to Sky F1 speculation.

#2772 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:39

Not looking too bad... so far.

According to Sky they've blocked up the double DRS, either because they think they're better off without it fullstop or because if it rains on Sunday it won't gain them anything. Again, according to Sky F1 speculation.



If DDRS (the ROOT of the heavy rear tyre wear) can be blocked off, why couldnt they do that as soon as they realised it was more hinderance than help?

#2773 ivand911

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:40

Not looking too bad... so far.

According to Sky they've blocked up the double DRS, either because they think they're better off without it fullstop or because if it rains on Sunday it won't gain them anything. Again, according to Sky F1 speculation.

I think they just throw it away and with saved weight they balance the car better. For old car it looks fast.


#2774 george1981

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:41

Regarding the wind tunnel at Brackley, from what I can tell this was originally built for Reynard who were part of the original set up at BAR. When Reynard went bankrupt in 2002 BAR then aquired the factory at Brackley and the wind tunnel, according to some blurb I've found the original wind tunnel could run 50% scale models.
Then in 2006 Honda opened a new full scale wind tunnel at Brackley.
I can't find a lot of information about either wind tunnel.

#2775 rileyl

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:45

I think this joke team spent the whole season to find out that the old car is faster!

#2776 sharo

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:48

AFAIK the older and smaller one is used by one of the small teams, can't remember which one.

#2777 Timstr11

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 17:48

Regarding the wind tunnel at Brackley, from what I can tell this was originally built for Reynard who were part of the original set up at BAR. When Reynard went bankrupt in 2002 BAR then aquired the factory at Brackley and the wind tunnel, according to some blurb I've found the original wind tunnel could run 50% scale models.
Then in 2006 Honda opened a new full scale wind tunnel at Brackley.
I can't find a lot of information about either wind tunnel.

The old tunnel is only used commercially by 3rd parties (e.g. HRT has been using it).
More about the newer (2006) tunnel: http://www.formula1....05/12/3874.html

Edited by Timstr11, 23 November 2012 - 17:49.


#2778 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 18:01

I think this joke team spent the whole season to find out that the old car is faster!



As my Jamaican colleague would say


"**** me boy.....! "

Epic facepalm moment

#2779 F1Champion

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 19:13

Epic facepalm moment


Can't believe they wasted a whole season......Gary Anderson was right a long time ago on this.

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#2780 KiloWatt

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 19:26

Can't believe they wasted a whole season......Gary Anderson was right a long time ago on this.


I'm almost too afraid to ask, but what did he say?

Edited by KiloWatt, 23 November 2012 - 19:26.


#2781 Shiroo

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 19:28

I'm almost too afraid to ask, but what did he say?

in one sentence: That Mercedes people are retarded if they really think that DDRS is advantage

#2782 ivand911

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 19:48

I'm almost too afraid to ask, but what did he say?

:rotfl:


#2783 BigCHrome

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 20:08

That was something I found peculiar at Austin, in FP3 when it was cooler Rosberg was faster than Schumacher, in qualifying when the track was hotter Schumacher was faster than Rosberg. I would have thought the opposite, Schumacher should have had the advantage in lower temperatures because the exhaust was heating the tyres, whereas Rosberg should have been less hindered when the track was warmer.
Even if MS' advantage in qualifying was due to the extra downforce from the Coanda exhaust, where was this advantage through practice?


Exhaust would heat up the rear tires, while it's usually the front tires that are not up to temperature and cause problems.

Mercedes tunnel is 100% scale capable but for some reason they used 50% and not the allowed 60% for long time.


It's a big challenge to change from 50% to 60%. It's not just "Oh instead of multiplying the dimensions of our parts by 0.5, we just do it by 0.6" Also the benefits are not as obvious as 60% > 50% in terms of accuracy.

#2784 1Devil1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 20:57

Lewis whining at this goodbye interview for the BBC. Martin Whitmarsh talking about "gap year" for HAM and he his recently downplay of Perez abilities. Seems to be a funny year in 2013. If the mercedes is crap we are likely in the position to see an fantastic theater play. The losers of this special act will be Perez and Mercedes. The one losing his seat and the others their new top driver. Hamilton and McLaren will fall in love again that's for sure :rotfl: I hear Hollywood is calling

Fantastic Lewis only because you're gone crazy after your singapore retirement but I really have to thank you. You made the decision for Michael very easy. He can leave that "team" and save himself for bigger disappointments.

Edited by 1Devil1, 23 November 2012 - 20:58.


#2785 Kvothe

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:15

Lewis whining at this goodbye interview for the BBC. Martin Whitmarsh talking about "gap year" for HAM and he his recently downplay of Perez abilities. Seems to be a funny year in 2013. If the mercedes is crap we are likely in the position to see an fantastic theater play. The losers of this special act will be Perez and Mercedes. The one losing his seat and the others their new top driver. Hamilton and McLaren will fall in love again that's for sure :rotfl: I hear Hollywood is calling

Fantastic Lewis only because you're gone crazy after your singapore retirement but I really have to thank you. You made the decision for Michael very easy. He can leave that "team" and save himself for bigger disappointments.


WTH did I just read...

#2786 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:24

WTH did I just read...


Likewise. On the Meth?

#2787 1Devil1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 21:47

Likewise. On the Meth?


Yeah. What's wrong with it? Hamilton cried. Whitmarsh spoke about a "gap year". That's comedy gold. They didn't want to go separate ways but did in the end. For me it likely that Hamilton goes after one season back to McLaren after driving a dog of a car at Mercedes. This scenario is not unlikely and if this happened Perez and Mercedes are the big losers. You can annoyed about my word choice but in general I didn't say anything against your driver

Edited by 1Devil1, 23 November 2012 - 21:53.


#2788 Szoelloe

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:05

Yeah. What's wrong with it? Hamilton cried. Whitmarsh spoke about a "gap year". That's comedy gold. They didn't want to go separate ways but did in the end. For me it likely that Hamilton goes after one season back to McLaren after driving a dog of a car at Mercedes. This scenario is not unlikely and if this happened Perez and Mercedes are the big losers. You can annoyed about my word choice but in general I didn't say anything against your driver


everything.


#2789 1Devil1

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 22:24

everything.


Nice answer. Not better than mine

#2790 Shiroo

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 00:14

Well it would look silly tbh. I mean leaving, going for one year to other team and then go back.
Though Alonso made the same :]

#2791 P123

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 00:43

Yeah. What's wrong with it? Hamilton cried. Whitmarsh spoke about a "gap year". That's comedy gold.


I'll help you out... the question to Whitmarsh was that Hamilton leaving was bit like him being a student leaving home to go and experience something new, to which Whitmarsh's response was to hope he was off on a gap year. You shouldn't therefore take the gap year comment too literally in the sense that it's proof they plan to be running back to each other for 2014.

And you also seem confused between whining and crying.

Edited by P123, 24 November 2012 - 00:44.


#2792 BoschKurve

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:09

I'll help you out... the question to Whitmarsh was that Hamilton leaving was bit like him being a student leaving home to go and experience something new, to which Whitmarsh's response was to hope he was off on a gap year. You shouldn't therefore take the gap year comment too literally in the sense that it's proof they plan to be running back to each other for 2014.

And you also seem confused between whining and crying.


Devil is confused about a lot of things...don't worry, it's normal.

Anyhow, I think Hamilton is going to find himself between a rock and a hard place with the W04.

There is nothing this team has done over the last 3 seasons that convinces me they have any ability to field anything but a midfield car.

#2793 Rasputin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:48

Devil is confused about a lot of things...don't worry, it's normal.

Anyhow, I think Hamilton is going to find himself between a rock and a hard place with the W04.

There is nothing this team has done over the last 3 seasons that convinces me they have any ability to field anything but a midfield car.

First question to ask is what does Hamilton want with this bizarre career-move, I for one am not so certain that it's more than cashing in and build another endeavor with the tri-star as a vehicle?


#2794 1Devil1

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:22

Devil is confused about a lot of things...don't worry, it's normal.

Anyhow, I think Hamilton is going to find himself between a rock and a hard place with the W04.

There is nothing this team has done over the last 3 seasons that convinces me they have any ability to field anything but a midfield car.


Yeah, I am confused as always like you when start posting quotes nobody heard of before and don't come up with explanation after somebody ask you for a reliable source. You are one of the users which shouldn't threw bricks when living in a glass house. Perhaps you understand I am not a native, is not that hard to guess if you read my comments, but I understand the difference between crying (Ham cried yesterday) and whining. I made a mistake yesterday, but no need to panic :up:

#2795 BoschKurve

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:51

First question to ask is what does Hamilton want with this bizarre career-move, I for one am not so certain that it's more than cashing in and build another endeavor with the tri-star as a vehicle?


That's a great question...he certainly can't be oblivious to the ineptness of MGP right?

What you say, sounds like the truth.

I imagine his dad and management told him he needs to get a maximum cash deal to prepare for life outside of F1. So this is like a 401k of sorts for Lewis so he can fund his ventures post-F1. They had to have been ecstatic that Daimler was willing to fork over gobs of cash when it's clear nothing great is going to come of this.

All Lewis has to do is show up for the usual corporate functions, and bitch with Lauda on RTL. Pretty good deal, no?

#2796 moorsey

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:55

That's a great question...he certainly can't be oblivious to the ineptness of MGP right?

What you say, sounds like the truth.

I imagine his dad and management told him he needs to get a maximum cash deal to prepare for life outside of F1. So this is like a 401k of sorts for Lewis so he can fund his ventures post-F1. They had to have been ecstatic that Daimler was willing to fork over gobs of cash when it's clear nothing great is going to come of this.

All Lewis has to do is show up for the usual corporate functions, and bitch with Lauda on RTL. Pretty good deal, no?


Except that the final offer from McLaren was said to be bigger and he still turned it down.

#2797 Rasputin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 13:16

Except that the final offer from McLaren was said to be bigger and he still turned it down.

Which enhances the notion that this about something else, Moving to MGP/AMG for less money doesn't seem to be the most logical move ever done in the history of F1?

#2798 BoschKurve

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 13:24

Which enhances the notion that this about something else, Moving to MGP/AMG for less money doesn't seem to be the most logical move ever done in the history of F1?


Lewis is also free to pursue all those side deals that Ron the Con forbid. So I'd bet when all is said and done, the combination of salary and endorsements will be far more than anything McLaren could have offered.

#2799 Scotracer

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 13:31

If DDRS (the ROOT of the heavy rear tyre wear) can be blocked off, why couldnt they do that as soon as they realised it was more hinderance than help?


How are you qualified to make that statement? In fact, you've recently been making a lot of design assumptions. On you go: show your data. Why is their double DRS worsening rear tyre wear (typically controlled by rear down force and suspension geometry)? And why is a 60% scale model in a wind tunnel superior to a 50%?

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#2800 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 13:49

How are you qualified to make that statement? In fact, you've recently been making a lot of design assumptions. On you go: show your data. Why is their double DRS worsening rear tyre wear (typically controlled by rear down force and suspension geometry)? And why is a 60% scale model in a wind tunnel superior to a 50%?


It is the opinion of Gary Anderson. He has written at length numerous times on Mercedes' problems, the DDRS and the relationship with rear heavy tyre wear.