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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2801 BoschKurve

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 13:24

Which enhances the notion that this about something else, Moving to MGP/AMG for less money doesn't seem to be the most logical move ever done in the history of F1?


Lewis is also free to pursue all those side deals that Ron the Con forbid. So I'd bet when all is said and done, the combination of salary and endorsements will be far more than anything McLaren could have offered.

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#2802 Scotracer

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 13:31

If DDRS (the ROOT of the heavy rear tyre wear) can be blocked off, why couldnt they do that as soon as they realised it was more hinderance than help?


How are you qualified to make that statement? In fact, you've recently been making a lot of design assumptions. On you go: show your data. Why is their double DRS worsening rear tyre wear (typically controlled by rear down force and suspension geometry)? And why is a 60% scale model in a wind tunnel superior to a 50%?

#2803 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 13:49

How are you qualified to make that statement? In fact, you've recently been making a lot of design assumptions. On you go: show your data. Why is their double DRS worsening rear tyre wear (typically controlled by rear down force and suspension geometry)? And why is a 60% scale model in a wind tunnel superior to a 50%?


It is the opinion of Gary Anderson. He has written at length numerous times on Mercedes' problems, the DDRS and the relationship with rear heavy tyre wear.

#2804 Rasputin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 13:59

Lewis is also free to pursue all those side deals that Ron the Con forbid. So I'd bet when all is said and done, the combination of salary and endorsements will be far more than anything McLaren could have offered.

Somehow I doubt if Ron Dennis ever endorsed that sort of facial hair on Hamilton, knowing how he advised Alonso on haircut as well as eyebrows?

Believe it or not, but Ron the con is my kinda guy, attention to detail to the extreme.

#2805 ivand911

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:02

Yesterday car looked better. Q3 will be mission impossible.

#2806 schumimercamg

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:05

Yesterday car looked better. Q3 will be mission impossible.



Indeed, i'm worried.

I really thought if we could get a top 8 in quali we could see some magic in a wet race.

#2807 Urawa

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:07

Too cold now? :cat:
it looked better on friday yes

#2808 BoschKurve

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:14

Somehow I doubt if Ron Dennis ever endorsed that sort of facial hair on Hamilton, knowing how he advised Alonso on haircut as well as eyebrows?

Believe it or not, but Ron the con is my kinda guy, attention to detail to the extreme.


Young Lewis is going to be in for a rude awakening when he goes to Brackley, only to find out attention to detail is a phrase that does not exist there.

I imagine he'll go to one of the three kings looking to fix something, only to be told by one of the kings that, "It's not my area of expertise."

He'll go into Ross's office, only to see Ross on a fly fishing message board mumbling something about hooking a bigger fish.

#2809 ivand911

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:16

It is time for the rain dance. :p

#2810 Rasputin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:26

Young Lewis is going to be in for a rude awakening when he goes to Brackley, only to find out attention to detail is a phrase that does not exist there.

I imagine he'll go to one of the three kings looking to fix something, only to be told by one of the kings that, "It's not my area of expertise."

He'll go into Ross's office, only to see Ross on a fly fishing message board mumbling something about hooking a bigger fish.

Perhaps more like, "why don't you check out my job-description as Technical-shit for nothing- director" ?

http://www.google.co...&...=100&ty=107

Edited by Rasputin, 24 November 2012 - 14:26.


#2811 schumimercamg

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:26

Young Lewis is going to be in for a rude awakening when he goes to Brackley, only to find out attention to detail is a phrase that does not exist there.

I imagine he'll go to one of the three kings looking to fix something, only to be told by one of the kings that, "It's not my area of expertise."

He'll go into Ross's office, only to see Ross on a fly fishing message board mumbling something about hooking a bigger fish.


:lol:

#2812 Longtimefan

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:33

Young Lewis is going to be in for a rude awakening when he goes to Brackley, only to find out attention to detail is a phrase that does not exist there.

I imagine he'll go to one of the three kings looking to fix something, only to be told by one of the kings that, "It's not my area of expertise."

He'll go into Ross's office, only to see Ross on a fly fishing message board mumbling something about hooking a bigger fish.

Haha :up:

#2813 BoschKurve

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:35

Perhaps more like, "why don't you check out my job-description as Technical-shit for nothing- director" ?

http://www.google.co...&...=100&ty=107


:rotfl: :rotfl:

Ross has been talking about understanding rear tire wear since May.

Wouldn't someone with an abundance of technical knowledge know all about how to solve these problems?

That's what I can't understand one bit. He gets so much credit for Ferrari winning all their championships --more than Rory Byrne seems to-- and yet he exhibits no technical knowledge of any kind here at MGP? Yet people keep insisting he was a great TD at Ferrari.

#2814 Rasputin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:41

Again and again, someone who appoints three different technically related directors, in any walk of life, knows sh*t about management.

#2815 George Costanza

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 14:58

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Ross has been talking about understanding rear tire wear since May.

Wouldn't someone with an abundance of technical knowledge know all about how to solve these problems?

That's what I can't understand one bit. He gets so much credit for Ferrari winning all their championships --more than Rory Byrne seems to-- and yet he exhibits no technical knowledge of any kind here at MGP? Yet people keep insisting he was a great TD at Ferrari.



Jean Todt was and is a hell of lot better than Ross at TP. Yes I know Brawn '09, but that was a one off. If Jean was at MGP, it would be quite a different structure.
I
Ross was an excellent TD because that's what he was known for since his days at Jaguar in early 90s Group C racing.

Edited by George Costanza, 24 November 2012 - 14:58.


#2816 Rasputin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:03

Jean Todt was and is a hell of lot better than Ross at TP. Yes I know Brawn '09, but that was a one off. If Jean was at MGP, it would be quite a different structure.
I
Ross was an excellent TD because that's what he was known for since his days at Jaguar in early 90s Group C racing.

Ross Brawn was never a real TD, as a matter of fact he's not even an engineer, he started out as a machine operator with MrM's March outfit and grew from there.

Just a street-smart friend of Mosley's, that's all. But time catches up on all of us, doesn't it?

Edited by Rasputin, 24 November 2012 - 15:09.


#2817 moorsey

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:34

It's good to see so much positivity from the true fans????
We all need to realise that once the team had decided [wrongly but they weren't to know that until they tried it] that the DDRS was worth more than it turned out to be they were then unable to produce different down force from the front wings. The feed to the front wings became very limiting in as much as the cascades of the wings can not be radically altered. With the DDRS eliminated next season they have much more freedom with front and rear wings plus the front qualifiers won't have the full use of the current DRS so Merc have a very good chance to design a solid car from the get-go.

#2818 Rasputin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 15:47

It's good to see so much positivity from the true fans????
We all need to realise that once the team had decided [wrongly but they weren't to know that until they tried it] that the DDRS was worth more than it turned out to be they were then unable to produce different down force from the front wings. The feed to the front wings became very limiting in as much as the cascades of the wings can not be radically altered. With the DDRS eliminated next season they have much more freedom with front and rear wings plus the front qualifiers won't have the full use of the current DRS so Merc have a very good chance to design a solid car from the get-go.

The issue I believe is fans of what, is a heap of overpaid "names"in Brackley really what should represent Mercedes?

Edited by Rasputin, 24 November 2012 - 15:48.


#2819 dav115

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 16:13

Are the mercs out yet!? They're bad enough warming the tyres up in the cold dry never mind the damp!!

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#2820 KiloWatt

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 20:34

Noticed hamilton said that he's seen the W04 and it "doens't look right". He talks about thinking about how to improve it.

http://planetf1.com/...es-McLaren-exit

Sure, Hamilton is no engineer. But then again, I sort of doubt he'd say that for no reason. He has never displayed confidence in the W04. Another thing that struck me was that Michael, just a few races back (before announcing retirement), admitted that he hasn't really achieved anything and he seemed to imply that he wants to continue and make his comeback worthwhile. Maybe after some grave disaster came to the fore with the W04, he thought that he isn't up for another fruitless year. My subjective opinion about the tone his is giving out in interviews about his retirement seems that of relief.

I'm always trying to be optimistic, but I'm a bit worried here...

#2821 Timstr11

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 20:48

Noticed hamilton said that he's seen the W04 and it "doens't look right". He talks about thinking about how to improve it.

http://planetf1.com/...es-McLaren-exit

Sure, Hamilton is no engineer. But then again, I sort of doubt he'd say that for no reason. He has never displayed confidence in the W04. Another thing that struck me was that Michael, just a few races back (before announcing retirement), admitted that he hasn't really achieved anything and he seemed to imply that he wants to continue and make his comeback worthwhile. Maybe after some grave disaster came to the fore with the W04, he thought that he isn't up for another fruitless year. My subjective opinion about the tone his is giving out in interviews about his retirement seems that of relief.

I'm always trying to be optimistic, but I'm a bit worried here...

What? I saw the interview and he was referring to his decision to join the team. Not the car.

Edited by Timstr11, 24 November 2012 - 20:51.


#2822 Paco

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 20:54

Michael choose not to sign.. There must be a reason as he has shown this year that he still more then enough speed, beyond fit enough and still driven so his decision to not sign has to be taken as a concern about the 2013 car - if was good on paper, no reason he wouldn't have continued and he had wanted, he could have retired 1 into his 2yr contract Merc offered.

Too many chefs ie 2 designers designing 2 very different cars and still don't know what's wrong with this one...

#2823 silversurf3r

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 21:00

Noticed hamilton said that he's seen the W04 and it "doens't look right". He talks about thinking about how to improve it.

http://planetf1.com/...es-McLaren-exit

Sure, Hamilton is no engineer. But then again, I sort of doubt he'd say that for no reason. He has never displayed confidence in the W04. Another thing that struck me was that Michael, just a few races back (before announcing retirement), admitted that he hasn't really achieved anything and he seemed to imply that he wants to continue and make his comeback worthwhile. Maybe after some grave disaster came to the fore with the W04, he thought that he isn't up for another fruitless year. My subjective opinion about the tone his is giving out in interviews about his retirement seems that of relief.

I'm always trying to be optimistic, but I'm a bit worried here...

I too saw this interview and read two printed versions of the interview. The impression I got was that Hamilton was referring to the current car (W03) not 'looking right'. AFAI Hamilton hasn't yet visited the Mercedes factory? Could be wrong but this was my impression. If Hamilton had come out and said off the cuff the W04 doesn't look right I'm certain this would have been the headline of the article.

#2824 Szoelloe

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 21:15

I too saw this interview and read two printed versions of the interview. The impression I got was that Hamilton was referring to the current car (W03) not 'looking right'. AFAI Hamilton hasn't yet visited the Mercedes factory? Could be wrong but this was my impression. If Hamilton had come out and said off the cuff the W04 doesn't look right I'm certain this would have been the headline of the article.


He has been to the factory, Mercedes(Brawn, or maybe lauda) has confirmed that seeing the facilities and what they plan for the future gave him the last nudge to sign for Merc. So I hardly think he has been refering to the W04, in fact, I find that impossible. He was talking about the W03.

Edited by Szoelloe, 24 November 2012 - 21:15.


#2825 silversurf3r

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 21:20

He has been to the factory, Mercedes(Brawn, or maybe lauda) has confirmed that seeing the facilities and what they plan for the future gave him the last nudge to sign for Merc. So I hardly think he has been refering to the W04, in fact, I find that impossible. He was talking about the W03.

Yes I agree. This is what I was saying I can't see Hamilton commenting on next years car at such an early stage. Let alone a negative comment. Wasn't aware he'd already toured the factory. Good to know thanks Szoelloe.

#2826 Urawa

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 22:08

Brawn: new car to give its debut at the first test in Jerez next year, unless some unexpcted problems occur

http://www.motorspor...ungstaktik.html

#2827 Szoelloe

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 22:55

Brawn: new car to give its debut at the first test in Jerez next year, unless some unexpcted problems occur

http://www.motorspor...ungstaktik.html

THX Urawa. I kind of feel for them, having to cover their axx with the 'if no unexpected problems' part. Biggest disappointment me, this season was, since I follow F1. I just hope for a solid car next season, they have to break this effing curse in Brackley.


#2828 BoschKurve

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 23:00

THX Urawa. I kind of feel for them, having to cover their axx with the 'if no unexpected problems' part. Biggest disappointment me, this season was, since I follow F1. I just hope for a solid car next season, they have to break this effing curse in Brackley.


Ross should come to Jerez with a big binder that has the words "EXCUSES" printed in bold letters on the cover just in case.

With Pirelli changing the tires for 2013, we've already got our go to excuse for Ross ready to be rolled out.

If they want to break the curse in Brackley, the Daimler board needs to fire Ross and Norby the Hutt first. This team needs a real team principal...I think that would do wonders for this team.

#2829 Rasputin

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:49

...
If they want to break the curse in Brackley, the Daimler board needs to fire Ross and Norby the Hutt first. This team needs a real team principal...I think that would do wonders for this team.


I'm afraid that is the point here, Ross Brawn was never more than Mosley's ambassador to his preferred winner, while Norbert Haug is nothing but a journo with important friends.

Zetsche should ask David Richards to take over as TP, retain Bell as TD, confine Willis to the windtunnel, ask Costa to take a drive back to Italy in his 612 and find a decent chief designer.

As for Lauda, well...

#2830 RedBaron

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:51

Any rain forecasts that might benefit Schumacher's slightly wet set-up?

#2831 jstrains

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:53

Interview with Schumi in German BILD. He blames lack of aero develompent for the bad times and is not sure they can fix the problem in the future

http://www.bild.de/s...51248.bild.html

#2832 apoka

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:56

Any rain forecasts that might benefit Schumacher's slightly wet set-up?

It looks like it will rain during the race at the moment (see the race thread). I still remember MS last race in 2006 very well and would hope that he can do something great today, but my head says that there is only a very remote chance for this to happen. I hope at least one of the drivers can end the season on a high.


#2833 Vic Vega

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 18:15

Good riddance BAR Honda.

#2834 Sakae

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 18:39

Brawn: new car to give its debut at the first test in Jerez next year, unless some unexpcted problems occur

http://www.motorspor...ungstaktik.html

There is at least one driver who might be relieved that he will not have to drive it. (Joking). :D

#2835 Lelouch

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 18:43

Good riddance BAR Honda.

I just love your posts!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#2836 Disgrace

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 18:45

Good riddance BAR Honda.


This season was more like BAR Supertec.

#2837 BetaVersion

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 18:51

Car is so crap that it was slower than even Petrov during some time in there

I already realized from long time ago that all old teams, including STR, were faster than Mercedes during the race. Now maybe even Caterham could be close to it

There won't be reg change in 2013 so I don't expect any good results for Nico and Lewis in their next 20 races

#2838 sharo

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:06

Good riddance BAR Honda.

From me too. Finally. :wave:

#2839 Pizdek

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:16

We can be happy that watching this car has come to end.

Slipped from 4th to 5th at third year.

Masterminds must build proper car next year!!!

Hail W04! Come on Nico. Come on Lewis!

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#2840 Junky

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 19:26

Thank god I don't have to support this team anymore!! What a joke they are!

#2841 Rikhart

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 20:31

Mercedes is getting a lot of embarassment from all this, I mean 3 years of dragging along dog-cars is enough?

#2842 Paa

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:24

Bye-bye thread, bye-bye team!

What a relief...

#2843 schumimercamg

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:29

Bye-bye thread, bye-bye team!

What a relief...


+1 The only joy i'm taking from Michael leaving. I really wish it was Hulk at Mclaren because I see him taking up Michael's mantel for me.

#2844 Pits

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:56

Thank god I don't have to support this team anymore!! What a joke they are!

+1

#2845 Longtimefan

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 22:57

Good Riddance to Merc, next season I can laugh at you, rather than suffer.


#2846 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:11

+1

Bye bye Mercedes.

My 'support' of you ends as soon as I put the full stop to this sentence.

#2847 amppatel

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:41

+1 The only joy i'm taking from Michael leaving. I really wish it was Hulk at Mclaren because I see him taking up Michael's mantel for me.



+1



Good Riddance to Merc, next season I can laugh at you, rather than suffer.



+1

Bye bye Mercedes.

My 'support' of you ends as soon as I put the full stop to this sentence.


To be great you have to fail first...

#2848 black magic

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:25

yeah next year car ready for the first test - unless of course they continue with the design work to maximise its development up until the last minute. what year was that pathetic excuse tarted out. it might even have been this year wasnt it when the car only finally made it to the last test in completed form.

good riddence.

as I said before the reality for lewis is that if the w04 is any good then it is purely a fluke only, so bad is this yrs car that it is of no use whatsoever in preparing the 2013 car (and lets forget that the team doesnt even understand what is wrong with this car either other than by reverting to its early season format they actually looked more competitive)

#2849 hamiltorenzo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:56

Any hope that merc will build a quick car next year?

#2850 BoschKurve

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:06

Any hope that merc will build a quick car next year?


No.

Michael pretty much said he is not sure they can't solve their aero problems which is a pretty big indictment of what a joke this team is.

I'd wager the real reason Michael didn't make a decision on 2013 was because he had a feeling the W04 would be another joke of a car.

I give him credit for being rather diplomatic about the entire thing, when I don't think anyone would have faulted him for throwing this team under the bus. Too bad he didn't as maybe it would have been the wake-up call the Daimler board needed to put Dave Richards in as TP and to get rid of that fat slob and the fly fisher.

I imagine Hamilton will be back at McLaren in 2014 or somewhere else, once he gets embarrassed by this team.