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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2851 hamiltorenzo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:10

No.

Michael pretty much said he is not sure they can't solve their aero problems which is a pretty big indictment of what a joke this team is.

I'd wager the real reason Michael didn't make a decision on 2013 was because he had a feeling the W04 would be another joke of a car.

I give him credit for being rather diplomatic about the entire thing, when I don't think anyone would have faulted him for throwing this team under the bus. Too bad he didn't as maybe it would have been the wake-up call the Daimler board needed to put Dave Richards in as TP and to get rid of that fat slob and the fly fisher.

I imagine Hamilton will be back at McLaren in 2014 or somewhere else, once he gets embarrassed by this team.


Damn thats a real shame I reckon lewis will join RB in 2014 unless merc can build a rocketship

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#2852 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:19

Other than the huge tyre degradation issue, I don't see that W03 is that bad. I would put it faster than Lotus at times but Lotus always managed to finish higher due to its great tyre management.

I always see that their performance drops way too early in their tyre stint. To make matter worse, they always let their drivers stay out longer even when the tyre has gone bust. If they went to pit earlier, they would end up in the traffic but if they don't pit they won't make much progress anyway. At least if they pit earlier, they will have the pace when others start to pit.

#2853 SR388

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:23

Well coming back to the team that I got into the sport with.

#2854 TheF1BOB

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:27

Can this team just leave already? Already embarrassed themselves enough.

#2855 Obi Offiah

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:13

Any hope that merc will build a quick car next year?

Excellent username :up:

#2856 Tarzaan

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:55

Bye-bye thread, bye-bye team!

What a relief...


+1 :up:

#2857 seahawk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:56

I am eagerly waiting for 2013. This thread will be epic, if they built another bad car.

#2858 Sakae

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:07

Considering 2012 results, the team can now only remain static, or go forward in rankings, however after interjection of new technical brainpower, hopefully they can overcome. Schumacher had misfortune to catch them in times of internal instability with a car that could have been, but wasn't. This will change.

Edited by Sakae, 26 November 2012 - 08:54.


#2859 DS27

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:14

+1 The only joy i'm taking from Michael leaving. I really wish it was Hulk at Mclaren because I see him taking up Michael's mantel for me.


:up:

Merc. Over & Out [breathes sigh of relief]

Edited by DS27, 26 November 2012 - 08:17.


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#2860 Zoetrope

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:39

I just read that Schumacher can keep his Mercedes W03. The car is so crap that even the team wants to get rid of it :lol:
On the other hand, that would explain why Hamilton joined them, maybe he wants to keep some trophies too.

#2861 Shiroo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:01

If Hamilton will get any trophies lol.

If Mercedes will produce next year again a POS car I believe they will leave F1

#2862 akshay380

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:20

Considering 2012 results, the team can now only remain static, or go forward in rankings, however after interjection of new technical brainpower, hopefully they can overcome. Schumacher had misfortune to catch them in times of internal instability with a car that could have been, but wasn't. This will change.

:up:

We need some freshness here. Too much whining. Eagerly waiting for winter tests.

#2863 Diablobb81

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:22

I just read that Schumacher can keep his Mercedes W03. The car is so crap that even the team wants to get rid of it :lol:
On the other hand, that would explain why Hamilton joined them, maybe he wants to keep some trophies too.


His wife's horses are faster. :lol:

#2864 AJFIN

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:14

I don't think they were able to keep a straight face when they told Hamilton that he can keep all his trophies :lol:

#2865 george1981

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:16

I don't think they were able to keep a straight face when they told Hamilton that he can keep all his trophies :lol:

:rotfl:



#2866 stanga

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:35

How does the car numbering work for next year?

#2867 Kucki

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:47

If Hamilton will get any trophies lol.

If Mercedes will produce next year again a POS car I believe they will leave F1


I believe they might have even left F1 this year already if Mercedes board would not have gotten Hamilton. With the team at Brackley they are in for an average start into the season with declining development pace like they always do. They might just leave F1 next year or the year after. Hamilton will have lost his prime years and it will not be easy to get back to a top team, if there is a cockpit free there at all.

#2868 slmk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:01

I believe they might have even left F1 this year already if Mercedes board would not have gotten Hamilton. With the team at Brackley they are in for an average start into the season with declining development pace like they always do. They might just leave F1 next year or the year after. Hamilton will have lost his prime years and it will not be easy to get back to a top team, if there is a cockpit free there at all.


I think Alonso and Raikkonen did well for themselves...

Mercedes just went down a blind alley in 2012 with respect to development - DDRS wasn't worth the hassle, nor was that complicated suspension. The most worrying thing about this is the fact that they still can't understand the tyres.

#2869 Szoelloe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:10

:up:

We need some freshness here. Too much whining. Eagerly waiting for winter tests.



I am eagerly waiting too. But considering the whining part mate, what I have read for the past years in the Mc and hamilton threads, well, you can call that whining. Most of the posters here had the patience of a stoned cow for two and a half seasons. There's going to be more whining here next year than in a dog-pound during a hurricane if things don't work out. Saying that, I think they will. So keep the arrogance in check will you?

#2870 Anonymous

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:25

I don't think they were able to keep a straight face when they told Hamilton that he can keep all his trophies :lol:


http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5945422

:lol:

#2871 RedBaron

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:30

Posted Image

Yes, yes Lewis. You can keep your original trophies.


Haha! Superb.

#2872 KiloWatt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:35

I think Alonso and Raikkonen did well for themselves...

Mercedes just went down a blind alley in 2012 with respect to development - DDRS wasn't worth the hassle, nor was that complicated suspension. The most worrying thing about this is the fact that they still can't understand the tyres.


The biggest myth of 2012, possibly even of all time.

Contrary to what everyone will tell you, they do, in fact, understand the tyres. Unfortunately, they found out that getting them to last induces massive understeer in the car.

People seem to confuse "not getting the tyres to work", with "not understanding the tyres". Two different things. Put it this way, understanding how a virus works, still doens't mean you can cure it.

Edited by KiloWatt, 26 November 2012 - 11:37.


#2873 stanga

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:39

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5945422

:lol:


I don't get it.

#2874 slmk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:42

The biggest myth of 2012, possibly even of all time.

Contrary to what everyone will tell you, they do, in fact, understand the tyres. Unfortunately, they found out that getting them to last induces massive understeer in the car.

People seem to confuse "not getting the tyres to work", with "not understanding the tyres". Two different things. Put it this way, understanding how a virus works, still doens't mean you can cure it.


How, then, can other teams make their tyres last much longer while going much faster than Mercedes?



#2875 Szoelloe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:45

How, then, can other teams make their tyres last much longer while going much faster than Mercedes?


hmmm. have you actually read the post you quoted? :lol:

#2876 stanga

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:45

How, then, can other teams make their tyres last much longer while going much faster than Mercedes?


Is it the suspension configuration? I would like to read more about it.

#2877 BetaVersion

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:48

Other than the huge tyre degradation issue, I don't see that W03 is that bad. I would put it faster than Lotus at times but Lotus always managed to finish higher due to its great tyre management.


:cat:

other than China and Monaco, I can't remember a track in which Mercedes was faster than Lotus, even with tire management apart. Not only that, Mercedes was slower, in qualifying, than Sauber, Force India, Williams many times.

The car was a tyre eater and dead slow in most tracks and I don't have a clue how could you said such thing.



#2878 alg7_munif

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:54

:cat:

other than China and Monaco, I can't remember a track in which Mercedes was faster than Lotus, even with tire management apart. Not only that, Mercedes was slower, in qualifying, than Sauber, Force India, Williams many times.

The car was a tyre eater and dead slow in most tracks and I don't have a clue how could you said such thing.

The car was slow because the tyre went bust so early in the stint. For a few initial laps, the Mercedes has the pace to match the front running teams, only for a few laps though...

#2879 Disgrace

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:54

Any hope that merc will build a quick car next year?


I would say so actually, this Mercedes year is comparable to what Lotus went through in 2011, with a car built around a device leading them into a developmental dead-end (FFE/DDRS).

Lotus have proven to otherwise have tight organisation and don't need big names running their technical team to get results.

The W04 by comparison will be the first project of those big names hired to work together over the last years, so we'll just have to see.

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#2880 KiloWatt

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:57

How, then, can other teams make their tyres last much longer while going much faster than Mercedes?


Wish I knew. Quite possibly a design issue with their interlinked suspension. My personal theory is that they got so fixated on the tyres, while the other teams just went about their business and got on with aero work. They lost sight of the big picture, is what I'm saying. I believe Button was quoted as saying sometime ago that they fixed their tyres with more downforce. When the car got more downforce they tyres got more manageable. I believe he said it during a broadcast, so can't give a reference unfortunately.

Is it the suspension configuration? I would like to read more about it.


I read the info I gave you from a magazine interview with Bob Bell. It was racecar-engineering, Jan '13.

Edited by KiloWatt, 26 November 2012 - 11:59.


#2881 F1ultimate

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:01

Hello guys. A Mclaren and Lewis support tuning in here. The second half of the season has not been good for the team but I presume the reason is that they are focusing on the 2013 and wrote 2012 off quite sometime ago which is a shame for Michael who has really wanted to do well.

#2882 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:04

Hello guys. A Mclaren and Lewis support tuning in here. The second half of the season has not been good for the team but I presume the reason is that they are focusing on the 2013 and wrote 2012 off quite sometime ago which is a shame for Michael who has really wanted to do well.

the sad part is that they didn't do that and they were actually working on that piece of sh!t car.

You're in for some pain with this team :(. But all the best of luck to Lewis :up:

#2883 Timstr11

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:19

Hello guys. A Mclaren and Lewis support tuning in here. The second half of the season has not been good for the team but I presume the reason is that they are focusing on the 2013 and wrote 2012 off quite sometime ago which is a shame for Michael who has really wanted to do well.

Quite right they have been focusing on the 2013 car since august although they have been doing evaluations on the car since then.
Lots of things have changed in the background. The effectiveness of which can only be judged when the new car roles out in 10 weeks time. Excited. (Don't let sour MS fans turn off your optimism).

#2884 stanga

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:23

Wish I knew. Quite possibly a design issue with their interlinked suspension. My personal theory is that they got so fixated on the tyres, while the other teams just went about their business and got on with aero work. They lost sight of the big picture, is what I'm saying. I believe Button was quoted as saying sometime ago that they fixed their tyres with more downforce. When the car got more downforce they tyres got more manageable. I believe he said it during a broadcast, so can't give a reference unfortunately.



I read the info I gave you from a magazine interview with Bob Bell. It was racecar-engineering, Jan '13.


Thanks for the link. I just read the article. Interesting. It did sound like interlinked suspension is carried by most cars in F1 now?

#2885 Timstr11

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 13:22

I would say so actually, this Mercedes year is comparable to what Lotus went through in 2011, with a car built around a device leading them into a developmental dead-end (FFE/DDRS).

Lotus have proven to otherwise have tight organisation and don't need big names running their technical team to get results.

The W04 by comparison will be the first project of those big names hired to work together over the last years, so we'll just have to see.

People have extremely short memories.
Remember the huge slump Renault/Lotus found themselves in after 2006, only to regain form after 6 years (2012)?

#2886 Lamag

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:08

Pedro de la Rosa is going to be free agent once again, it would be nice for Mercedes to hire a such a test driver like him.

#2887 Disgrace

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:51

People have extremely short memories.
Remember the huge slump Renault/Lotus found themselves in after 2006, only to regain form after 6 years (2012)?


This current team (Bouiller/Lopez/Allision) is not the same team you refer to (Briatore/Symonds/Bell). I'm not sure why that point is relevant at all, exceptionally with regards to Mercedes new car prospects.

Edited by Disgrace, 26 November 2012 - 21:52.


#2888 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 21:57

Hello guys. A Mclaren and Lewis support tuning in here. The second half of the season has not been good for the team but I presume the reason is that they are focusing on the 2013 and wrote 2012 off quite sometime ago which is a shame for Michael who has really wanted to do well.

Funny, didn't they do the same thing in 2011? All this writing off the season halfway to focus on next year is such rubbish and doesn't gain anything. You see Red Bull and McLaren fighting for the title the last three years and they come with a great car again the season after.

#2889 Timstr11

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 22:18

This current team (Bouiller/Lopez/Allision) is not the same team you refer to (Briatore/Symonds/Bell). I'm not sure why that point is relevant at all, exceptionally with regards to Mercedes new car prospects.


It is highly relevant as it is the same Enstone team that has gone through evolutions.
The Brackley team gas gone through even more dramatic changes than Enstone in the last 5 years.


#2890 BigCHrome

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 22:23

No.

Michael pretty much said he is not sure they can't solve their aero problems which is a pretty big indictment of what a joke this team is.

I'd wager the real reason Michael didn't make a decision on 2013 was because he had a feeling the W04 would be another joke of a car.

I give him credit for being rather diplomatic about the entire thing, when I don't think anyone would have faulted him for throwing this team under the bus. Too bad he didn't as maybe it would have been the wake-up call the Daimler board needed to put Dave Richards in as TP and to get rid of that fat slob and the fly fisher.

I imagine Hamilton will be back at McLaren in 2014 or somewhere else, once he gets embarrassed by this team.


I guess they might not even show up to the races, if it's a known fact that the car will be so bad.

#2891 Rikhart

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 22:51

It might not be a known fact, but lets just call it extremely high possibilities of it, considering their horrendous track record over 3 years with the most sucessfull driver ever with them.

#2892 Raelene

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:39

Quite right they have been focusing on the 2013 car since august although they have been doing evaluations on the car since then.
Lots of things have changed in the background. The effectiveness of which can only be judged when the new car roles out in 10 weeks time. Excited. (Don't let sour MS fans turn off your optimism).


Let's see how sour you become should Lewis ever get the type of car MSC and ROS have had to endure the last 3 years...

This will be a shock to Lewis who has always had a great car in F1

#2893 SparkPlug

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:44

I think Lewis is very much mentally prepared to fight atleast a year in the midfield, for positions 8-12 in most races.

Anything above that is just a bonus. If he's in it for the long haul, that should be his attitude. I am optimistic that Lewis's arrival should turn Merc into the 4th powerhouse in this sport.

#2894 George Costanza

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:53

Hello guys. A Mclaren and Lewis support tuning in here. The second half of the season has not been good for the team but I presume the reason is that they are focusing on the 2013 and wrote 2012 off quite sometime ago which is a shame for Michael who has really wanted to do well.



They would have never written the season off so early had Michael's car was finishing the races; I believe by Canada or after that, Michael would have been leading the championship had he finished the races in the order he was place in. Who knows what would have occured, but I would not have expected no difference in the shut down in performance, because the team hasn't shown that just yet...

I think the 2012 season would have taken a different turn with Schu right behind Alonso, Seb. I am not saying he would have finished behind those two, but still, one to make note of.

Edited by George Costanza, 27 November 2012 - 04:56.


#2895 Sakae

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:20

I think Lewis is very much mentally prepared to fight atleast a year in the midfield, for positions 8-12 in most races.

Anything above that is just a bonus. If he's in it for the long haul, that should be his attitude. I am optimistic that Lewis's arrival should turn Merc into the 4th powerhouse in this sport.

Maybe this is little OT in here, but I have difficulty to understand that a top class competitor would ever accept mentally position such as Hamilton might find himself in next year. There could be difference between being aware of forthcoming difficulties, and actually endure those for couple of seasons, especially, should this take longer than he is anticipating, and he wan't see light towards end of tunnel. Having said that, I am actually hopeful, that tire-lessons learned this year will result in vastly improved design next season.

#2896 sanW10

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:37

So everybody has forgotten about the 'other' driver in this team?
It was always MSC, now it'll be Ham?

but all i see is a pattern here, MS was pulled in so team is not immediately neglected by everyone, then when there's no real performance from team and possibility of Merc pulling out, they pull in Hamilton.

This team is more or less like the three teams who've yet to score a point. nobody cares about them unless there's a star driver in it.
From 2010 to 2012, MS Fans supported Merc AMG F1, now it'll be Hamilton's fans.

If the team 'genuinely' put an effort to put together a competitive car or at least tried to develop the car in season, today a lot of people would have been Merc AMG fans, even the MS fans would have stayed back & supported the team, but all they do is talk , talk & talk.

I literally ignore the news/interview article involving Brawn or Haug. As just a fan its incredibly frustrating to read/watch their BS talk race after race, dunno how the Mercedes President & the company's Board of Directors tolerate these people.

What i can predict for 2014 is, a good engine, but poor aero package, BUT good season start, aaannd again losing the development race. finally Ham switching back to McLaren with fresh Merc Engines :p

the big names hired have not yet changed much of WCC/WDC outcome so far, Costa, Bob bell, Geoff (doubtful if he can match his old boss Newey), have been in this team long enough to put at least a consistent performance. but nope.

Only thing we can all do is HOPE.

Edited by sanW10, 27 November 2012 - 06:39.


#2897 Sakae

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:52

So everybody has forgotten about the 'other' driver in this team?
It was always MSC, now it'll be Ham?

but all i see is a pattern here, MS was pulled in so team is not immediately neglected by everyone, then when there's no real performance from team and possibility of Merc pulling out, they pull in Hamilton.

This team is more or less like the three teams who've yet to score a point. nobody cares about them unless there's a star driver in it.
From 2010 to 2012, MS Fans supported Merc AMG F1, now it'll be Hamilton's fans.

If the team 'genuinely' put an effort to put together a competitive car or at least tried to develop the car in season, today a lot of people would have been Merc AMG fans, even the MS fans would have stayed back & supported the team, but all they do is talk , talk & talk.

I literally ignore the news/interview article involving Brawn or Haug. As just a fan its incredibly frustrating to read/watch their BS talk race after race, dunno how the Mercedes President & the company's Board of Directors tolerate these people.

What i can predict for 2014 is, a good engine, but poor aero package, BUT good season start, aaannd again losing the development race. finally Ham switching back to McLaren with fresh Merc Engines :p

the big names hired have not yet changed much of WCC/WDC outcome so far, Costa, Bob bell, Geoff (doubtful if he can match his old boss Newey), have been in this team long enough to put at least a consistent performance. but nope.

Only thing we can all do is HOPE.

I love Mercedes brand on the road (as a few others), and I am Schumacher's fan for some time, but that's whole scope of my ties to Brackley. (Brawn alone could not do that). I will continue my support for the team, as long as there is a link to Stuttgart, but the team has to work little more on that relationship as well. Right now they haven't really shown much in past three years (even BMW I think had more success while in F1), but changes were made in management, so let's wait and see for another year or two.

#2898 stanga

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:55

Let's see how sour you become should Lewis ever get the type of car MSC and ROS have had to endure the last 3 years...

This will be a shock to Lewis who has always had a great car in F1


No he hasn't. 2009 was a dog of a car for half the season. He drove brilliantly, and contibuted to the team turning it around.

Edited by stanga, 27 November 2012 - 07:56.


#2899 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:08

No he hasn't. 2009 was a dog of a car for half the season. He drove brilliantly, and contibuted to the team turning it around.



Yes but Mercedes does not have the development rate and ability Mclaren do so if Merc start with a dog it will still be a dog by season's end.

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#2900 seahawk

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:09

Yes but Mercedes does not have the development rate and ability Mclaren do so if Merc start with a dog it will still be a dog by season's end.


Worse. So far Merc looks like that they even turn a decent car into a dog over the season.