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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#2901 ivand911

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:37



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#2902 Hyatt

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:44

Yes but Mercedes does not have the development rate ....


things like that may change ...

#2903 DutchCruijff

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:44

things like that may change ...

Nothing in the past 35 years has suggested that they'll keep up in the development race. Only the BAR 006, in more capable hands, had the potential right through till the end to win the title. Other than that, shit team as always.

#2904 Kompressor

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:23

I'm looking forward to winter testing. Hamilton's first impressions will be the most important. He actually remembers what a winning car feels like. Just waiting for certain elements to drop off like leprosy. :p

#2905 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:44

Maybe this is little OT in here, but I have difficulty to understand that a top class competitor would ever accept mentally position such as Hamilton might find himself in next year. There could be difference between being aware of forthcoming difficulties, and actually endure those for couple of seasons, especially, should this take longer than he is anticipating, and he wan't see light towards end of tunnel. Having said that, I am actually hopeful, that tire-lessons learned this year will result in vastly improved design next season.

Hamiltons best chance would have been to save his 2012 salary and use it to buy a Red Bull drive for 2013 in place of Webber.

I'm sure $20m would have been enough to convince Horner of Hamilton's talents. :)

#2906 RedBaron

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 18:33

Peter Windsor ‏@PeterDWindsor
I'm starting to think that Merc are in very good shape for 2013: mega-budget, HAM, aero regs near the limit and the fastest engine. #f1



#2907 jrg19

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 18:35

^ I like the words "mega budget" we know the wonders that has done for RedBull.

#2908 10e10

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 19:10

So, no new change in aero rules for 2014, so how does that affect Mercedes and Lewis?

#2909 race addicted

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 19:34

No real difference, but if any, I'd say better. We haven't seen what the new design-team is capable of, but I have a feeling stable regs is better for Mercedes (and obviously less good, relatively speaking, for geniuses like Newey.)

#2910 MSCDesign

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 19:38

Okay now it all started being akward.
If you know what I mean.

#2911 P123

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 19:40

Let's see how sour you become should Lewis ever get the type of car MSC and ROS have had to endure the last 3 years...

This will be a shock to Lewis who has always had a great car in F1


I think he will be quite happy if he can win a race and secure a couple of pole positions, similar to this season, and see Mercedes regain the 4th spot in the constructors. Obviously less than happy if Merc continue to suffer the terrible reliability and dead end development path they did this past season.

As for 'Lewis has always had a great car'... generally so, but not always.

#2912 P123

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 19:43

So, no new change in aero rules for 2014, so how does that affect Mercedes and Lewis?


It means Merc can now fully focus all their aero efforts on next season- no need to split effort during the year as whatever is developed will now be relevant to 2014. There is plenty of space for them to improve. The main change is the engines.

#2913 George Costanza

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 19:46

^ I like the words "mega budget" we know the wonders that has done for RedBull.



You can spend a billion dollars, but until you have the right people, such as Adrian at RB, Mercedes will struggle. Bob Bell is good, so is Geoff Wills, but they are not a match for Adrian.

Maybe Aldo Costa can create something that is capable.

#2914 stanga

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 20:42

It means Merc can now fully focus all their aero efforts on next season- no need to split effort during the year as whatever is developed will now be relevant to 2014. There is plenty of space for them to improve. The main change is the engines.


That's a good way of looking at it.

#2915 Sakae

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 20:55

Hamiltons best chance would have been to save his 2012 salary and use it to buy a Red Bull drive for 2013 in place of Webber.

I'm sure $20m would have been enough to convince Horner of Hamilton's talents. :)

I would have actually liked that scenario. Michael with Merc for another year, and Hamilton facing Vettel at RBR (so we can settle that issue for a day or two before new ones will crop in).

#2916 Clatter

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 21:30

^ I like the words "mega budget" we know the wonders that has done for RedBull.


If money was all it takes then Toyota would have had a much better time.


#2917 Rikhart

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 23:49

They DO NOT have a mega budget... And even if they did, im not convinced it would cure all the problems this team has.

#2918 andrewf1

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 00:33

Peter Windsor ‏@PeterDWindsor
I'm starting to think that Merc are in very good shape for 2013: mega-budget, HAM, aero regs near the limit and the fastest engine. #f1


1) they do not have a mega-budget
2) ham is superb but if he doesn't have a good car, he can't help the team
3) i don't understand what the heck aero regs near the limit mean and what the connection with Mercedes is
4) fastest engine? what's that? even if it were something which exists, you could say they've had the fastest engine for 3 years now, hasn't helped them. not that it has that much to do with the car's overall performance, which is dictated by aerodynamics, mechanics and handling of tires now.

all in all, a very amateur and naive post.

Edited by andrewf1, 06 December 2012 - 00:35.


#2919 ViMaMo

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:42

You can spend a billion dollars, but until you have the right people, such as Adrian at RB, Mercedes will struggle. Bob Bell is good, so is Geoff Wills, but they are not a match for Adrian.

Maybe Aldo Costa can create something that is capable.


We are reaching a saturation point aero regulations-wise. So Adrian will have lesser and lesser tricks in the hat. Teams should get closer and closer to Red Bull.
I'm sure these guys can build a fundamentally good car next year and hope the development goes alright. Aim for lot of points and also possibly podiums. (Maybe Lewis can deliver the magical win)


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#2920 akshay380

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:51

You can spend a billion dollars, but until you have the right people, such as Adrian at RB, Mercedes will struggle. Bob Bell is good, so is Geoff Wills, but they are not a match for Adrian.

Maybe Aldo Costa can create something that is capable.

Not nitpicking but IMO Newey can be tackled like McLaren did this year with their design team. What Mercedes needs is a competitive car throughout the season and an operations team which will grab every single opportunity with both hands and convert it to maximum points. I also have a strange feeling that Lewis will lift this team much higher then many expect. He surely knows how to get things done by raising voice.

#2921 seahawk

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:37

Yet the Mercedes team has many "names", but do they have a working structure?

#2922 moorsey

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:19

We are reaching a saturation point aero regulations-wise. So Adrian will have lesser and lesser tricks in the hat. Teams should get closer and closer to Red Bull. I'm sure these guys can build a fundamentally good car next year and hope the development goes alright. Aim for lot of points and also possibly podiums. (Maybe Lewis can deliver the magical win)


I agree with that and my gut feeling is that, once the cars have "levelled out" and are extremely close in overall performance, that is when the benefit of the best drivers will really come into their own. It would be good to get back to races where the top 4 drivers need their own skills to win and results aren't quite so controlled by tyres, DRS or whatever other gimmicks the FIA come up with.

#2923 RedBaron

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 13:00

Seeing Lewis' comments about going back to McLaren (no real major headline) made me think if he did go back to McLaren for 2014/2015 how embarrassing that would be for Mercedes if they hadn't delivered a car that could beat McLaren.

#2924 eronrules

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 13:46

we'll it is gonna happen, lewis will go back to mclaren to end his career. mclaren knows it, and i guess merc knows it too.

#2925 Sakae

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 13:56

Seeing Lewis' comments about going back to McLaren (no real major headline) made me think if he did go back to McLaren for 2014/2015 how embarrassing that would be for Mercedes if they hadn't delivered a car that could beat McLaren.

I said this before, and I am convinced even more so today, that getting involved with Hamilton was a mistake. Dr. Zetsche should not have approve it. Future will tell if I am wrong.

Edited by Sakae, 06 December 2012 - 14:05.


#2926 tifosiMac

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 13:58

I said this before, and I am convinced even more so today, that getting involved with Hamilton was a mistake. Dr. Zetsche should not have approve it. Futurre will tell if I am wrong.

Why is it a mistake?

#2927 Sakae

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 14:13

Why is it a mistake?

I think that Hamilton will not fit in, which might affect adversely process and the result. I do not possess a Crystal Ball, just basic instinct. Wrong man for the job on a wrong time-line. Maybe under different circumstances it could be working, but as it is, I am sceptical. Too many variables, too many noises on the system, and now this guy...

Edited by Sakae, 06 December 2012 - 14:14.


#2928 SmokeScreen

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 14:15

Why is it a mistake?



Cos he is not allowed to "make nice" to his CURRENT employer , after 14 years together, while answering leading questions about a future no one knows a half-inch nail about.

#2929 tifosiMac

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 14:25

I think that Hamilton will not fit in, which might affect adversely process and the result. I do not possess a Crystal Ball, just basic instinct. Wrong man for the job on a wrong time-line. Maybe under different circumstances it could be working, but as it is, I am sceptical. Too many variables, too many noises on the system, and now this guy...

I think if Lewis has fitted with an uber-corporate team like McLaren for so long, he will fit in well with a team like Mercedes who if anything are slightly more relaxed. He's known Norbert for a long time and I think he will settle in fine.

#2930 Timstr11

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 14:31

So on the question "will you go back to to McLaren", Hamilton responds:

"You can never say never and I've had a great time"

Based on this answer, people (including autosport.com) are already speculating about a return to McLaren while he has not even turned a wheel at Mercedes :well:

Edited by Timstr11, 06 December 2012 - 14:31.


#2931 RedBaron

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 14:38

So on the question "will you go back to to McLaren", Hamilton responds:
Based on this answer, people (including autosport.com) are already speculating about a return to McLaren while he has not even turned a wheel at Mercedes :well:


Well the question was asked. It's not like people are speculating based on no quotes from Hamilton. I am sure it's highly possible if the partnership doesn't work out, just like Alonso McLaren/Renault in 2007. I have to agree though - as I said - Hamilton's comments are not breaking news... it's interesting to discuss though while we don't have cars on the track!

#2932 Timstr11

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 14:48

Well the question was asked. It's not like people are speculating based on no quotes from Hamilton. I am sure it's highly possible if the partnership doesn't work out, just like Alonso McLaren/Renault in 2007. I have to agree though - as I said - Hamilton's comments are not breaking news... it's interesting to discuss though while we don't have cars on the track!

What other answer did you expect? "I'm never going back"?. That would not have been a smart answer. Especially since he's leaving the team on good terms.

#2933 RedBaron

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 15:05

What other answer did you expect? "I'm never going back"?. That would not have been a smart answer. Especially since he's leaving the team on good terms.


:stoned:

"Hamilton's comments are not breaking news... it's interesting to discuss though while we don't have cars on the track!"

#2934 kpchelsea

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 15:07

Seeing Lewis' comments about going back to McLaren (no real major headline) made me think if he did go back to McLaren for 2014/2015 how embarrassing that would be for Mercedes if they hadn't delivered a car that could beat McLaren.

He signed a 3 year contract with Mercedes

#2935 kpchelsea

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 15:11

I think that Hamilton will not fit in, which might affect adversely process and the result. I do not possess a Crystal Ball, just basic instinct. Wrong man for the job on a wrong time-line. Maybe under different circumstances it could be working, but as it is, I am sceptical. Too many variables, too many noises on the system, and now this guy...

How could it being any worse than what it has been with Schumacher and Rosberg?

#2936 RedBaron

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 15:14

He signed a 3 year contract with Mercedes


Might be watertight, might not be. Contracts have ended early many times before in Formula 1. I wasn't saying it was going to happen or likely to, I was just saying it would be embarrassing where a scenario such as that to play out.

#2937 BigCHrome

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 18:39

I think that Hamilton will not fit in, which might affect adversely process and the result. I do not possess a Crystal Ball, just basic instinct. Wrong man for the job on a wrong time-line. Maybe under different circumstances it could be working, but as it is, I am sceptical. Too many variables, too many noises on the system, and now this guy...


Yep, should've continued with grandpa Schumi, rear-ending other cars is always fun.

I agree with that and my gut feeling is that, once the cars have "levelled out" and are extremely close in overall performance, that is when the benefit of the best drivers will really come into their own. It would be good to get back to races where the top 4 drivers need their own skills to win and results aren't quite so controlled by tyres, DRS or whatever other gimmicks the FIA come up with.


Well with the new engines, cars will have less power/weight than ever and more grip than ever, so driver skill won't be so important. Mediocre drivers like Vettel will continue to win "championships"

Edited by BigCHrome, 06 December 2012 - 18:42.


#2938 eronrules

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 18:47

Well with the new engines, cars will have less power/weight than ever and more grip than ever, so driver skill won't be so important. Mediocre drivers like Vettel will continue to win "championships"



i don't get it, how people can comment on these topics ... do you possess a crystal ball??? the engines are on the dyno, they'll generate above 700hp anyways, with coanda gone in 2014, we already have 2 sec a lap slower car than 2011, so how the grip is ''more than ever''??? FW and chasis load testing is getting stricter, no DRS except designated area, high deg tires from 2013 with large temp range, heavy tire and increased minimum weight. cars next year and 2014 will post 1 sec slower laptimes than this year.

#2939 maxx7

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 22:52

UBS will sponsor the team in 2013?

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#2940 jrg19

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 23:09

UBS will sponsor the team in 2013?


The bank?

#2941 Sakae

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:17

Yep, should've continued with grandpa Schumi, rear-ending other cars is always fun.


Accidents do happen in F1 quite often. How about this one? Canada 2008

Well with the new engines, cars will have less power/weight than ever and more grip than ever, so driver skill won't be so important. Mediocre drivers like Vettel will continue to win "championships"

If a racing series (in your theory) permits "mediocre" drivers to rise and win three championships, what does it say about Hamilton and/or Button who each really won just one? My expectation is, that you shall come back with a lot of explanation how that is someone else's fault.

Edited by Sakae, 07 December 2012 - 06:32.


#2942 Sakae

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:31

How could it being any worse than what it has been with Schumacher and Rosberg?

Despite bad results, causes were down to one or two technical issues IMO. I think that Schumacher was to some degree integrated with the team, and there was a momentum which with new technical resources had potential for next year to make the critical leap forward. In my view stability is important, and less disturbances on the system, better they can focus on job in hand. I am not convinced that age was the major factor in Schumacher performace, as car handling was. Hamilton will be a new element that interjects not only positives, but carries also some risks, and from various odd remarks one reads in headlines about him, I wonder occasionally about his state of mind; I wish him well, but time will tell what he is made off.

Edited by Sakae, 07 December 2012 - 06:34.


#2943 Timstr11

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:50

UBS will sponsor the team in 2013?

This will surely mean that the MIG Bank will cease as sponsor to be replaced by UBS Warburg.

#2944 sanW10

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:09

Despite bad results, causes were down to one or two technical issues IMO. I think that Schumacher was to some degree integrated with the team, and there was a momentum which with new technical resources had potential for next year to make the critical leap forward. In my view stability is important, and less disturbances on the system, better they can focus on job in hand. I am not convinced that age was the major factor in Schumacher performace, as car handling was. Hamilton will be a new element that interjects not only positives, but carries also some risks, and from various odd remarks one reads in headlines about him, I wonder occasionally about his state of mind; I wish him well, but time will tell what he is made off.

So what the hell is Nico Rosberg's role in the team then? :p
Has Merc AMG themselves titled him a journey man?

I just want these Brawn/Haug to just stfu & just give the drivers a 'proper' car, that doesnt breakdown.

DRS stuck open, gear box failures, avg. pit stop..., most obvious wrong development route...
anyways, at least they should learn from Ferrari - that having a reliable car is much more better than stopping aero dev./tyre study...

Edited by sanW10, 07 December 2012 - 08:09.


#2945 Szoelloe

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:35

So what the hell is Nico Rosberg's role in the team then? :p
Has Merc AMG themselves titled him a journey man?
I just want these Brawn/Haug to just stfu & just give the drivers a 'proper' car, that doesnt breakdown.

DRS stuck open, gear box failures, avg. pit stop..., most obvious wrong development route...
anyways, at least they should learn from Ferrari - that having a reliable car is much more better than stopping aero dev./tyre study...



Why do you even ask? Isn't it shoutingly obvious? Since the LH story was confirmed, they mentioned NR's name like once? Rosberg has a mountain to climb next season to dig himself out of this.

#2946 baddog

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:37

Yeah I almost feel sorry for Nico, the team shit on him from a great height. However he has been a douche for 3 years about Michael so meh

#2947 LiJu914

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:15


UBS will sponsor the team in 2013?

The bank?


Nope the United Bible Societies. Prayers might help the team. ;)

Edited by LiJu914, 07 December 2012 - 12:16.


#2948 ivand911

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:29

So many smart guys here. :p We that live in this thread until now, we didn't know that only missing part for MGP success was Lewis in W03? I would be happy for Michael to swap places with Lewis for the second part of 2012 and whip his ass on the track. Not only Lewis ass in W03 ,but Button ass in the same McLaren. Easy job for MS to do even at 43. You are good as your car is. Where would be Lewis stocks if he was driving W03 this year? Car was good for 2 races only in last 3 years, and both times Michael was ahead of Lewis. Silverstone too.

Edited by ivand911, 07 December 2012 - 12:35.


#2949 RedBaron

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:35

Why do you even ask? Isn't it shoutingly obvious? Since the LH story was confirmed, they mentioned NR's name like once? Rosberg has a mountain to climb next season to dig himself out of this.



Yeah I almost feel sorry for Nico, the team shit on him from a great height. However he has been a douche for 3 years about Michael so meh


Nico definitely thought he would be partnering Di Resta or someone like that when Schumacher left Mercedes... he never thought it would be someone like Hamilton.

#2950 Lamag

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 13:19

Jason
@Crucial_Xtreme
#F1 Lewis Hamilton tells F1 Racing Magazine that McLaren offered him £13.5m per year & Mercedes offered almost £20m per year