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Mercedes-AMG 2012 W03 - Part II


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#351 SeanValen

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 17:07

There was nothing wrong with the Merc race pace. They were running the first stint with a one-stopper in mind. NR stayed with this far-far too long, judging by his post-race comments, He has been too stubborn to dump the strategy, while MS timed his pit stop perfectly for a strategy swap. From than on, Both Merc drivers were consistently fast in free air, NR, in fact, was consistently fastest, and MS could stay on pace after he battled through quiet a few cars, so tyre management has took a great step forward too, as already indicated by the team. Sorry, but your lack of insight is slightly disturbing.



Reading Martin Whitmash's comments about developments and how every little thousandths matters is fasinating.

Dropping a second in the pitstops would be a race winner for someone. Getting Q3 right, getting your best gues estimate set up for Sunday's temperatures right-before 2003 this wasn't a issue as we had sunday warm up. So many more variables now. No testing, so your effectively trying out compounds knowing certain conditons on certain tracks still will bring unknowns.

Searching for a tenth in aero, gains in merchanical. Reliability a must. Driver having a clean run to the first corner. Safety car timing - strategy.

With so many variables it's easy to see why we've had so many winners and why any little misstake or any bad luck, any misfortune can change the outcome in a flash.


Fasiinating season the more I think about it. Many things must go right.

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#352 Kompressor

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 22:07

There was nothing wrong with the Merc race pace. They were running the first stint with a one-stopper in mind. NR stayed with this far-far too long, judging by his post-race comments, He has been too stubborn to dump the strategy, while MS timed his pit stop perfectly for a strategy swap. From than on, Both Merc drivers were consistently fast in free air, NR, in fact, was consistently fastest, and MS could stay on pace after he battled through quiet a few cars, so tyre management has took a great step forward too, as already indicated by the team. Sorry, but your lack of insight is slightly disturbing.


A temporary road course is always the worst place to try a one-stop strategy. A safety car ruins everything.

#353 1Devil1

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 22:27

A temporary road course is always the worst place to try a one-stop strategy. A safety car ruins everything.


Vettel won last year in Monaco with one stop. the probability of a safety car on a temporary road course is higher and teams calculate with that scenario. You can have bad luck with a one stopper or two stopper if the SC is deployed. But why is it more risky to take a one stop approach? Is there a calculation and do you know more about it?

#354 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:37

Vettel won last year in Monaco with one stop. the probability of a safety car on a temporary road course is higher and teams calculate with that scenario. You can have bad luck with a one stopper or two stopper if the SC is deployed. But why is it more risky to take a one stop approach? Is there a calculation and do you know more about it?

I think it was wrong , because W03 can't do it. Simple as that. They make serious miscalculation? If Lotus and Sauber didn't try it, what chance MGP have? Zero.


#355 ivand911

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:14

18-20 degree for Sunday sounds good to me. Sweet. Some small showers.
http://uk.weather.co...rstone-UKXX1916
http://www.myweather...uit.aspx?sday=6


#356 Augurk

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:08

It was very metaphoric witnessing Ralf Schumacher retire from a promising race after his first pitstop in his Mercedes AMG DTM car with technical problems on Sunday!

#357 Muz Bee

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 00:12

18-20 degree for Sunday sounds good to me. Sweet. Some small showers.
http://uk.weather.co...rstone-UKXX1916
http://www.myweather...uit.aspx?sday=6

Does the late race pace of the Mercs at Valencia indicate that their achilles heel is now manging tyres on maximum weight conditions? I just struggle to understand the inconsistency of the team to maximise their performance. The car wasn't that great in qualifying yet set the fastest lap of the race. I feel this weekend may be a struggle like Spa over the last two seasons.

#358 SparkPlug

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 05:15

I can imagine that the new tyre Pirelli will bring to test at Silverstone will be good for the Mercedes team. It has a wider operating window, works better than the current tyre at higher temperatures, and supposedly has better grip and better wear according to Di Grassi.

All these are issues being faced by Mercedes and their drivers. Will be interesting to see their performance chart if this tyre is introduced on race weekends.

#359 george1981

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:17

Reading Martin Whitmash's comments about developments and how every little thousandths matters is fasinating.

Dropping a second in the pitstops would be a race winner for someone. Getting Q3 right, getting your best gues estimate set up for Sunday's temperatures right-before 2003 this wasn't a issue as we had sunday warm up. So many more variables now. No testing, so your effectively trying out compounds knowing certain conditons on certain tracks still will bring unknowns.

Searching for a tenth in aero, gains in merchanical. Reliability a must. Driver having a clean run to the first corner. Safety car timing - strategy.

With so many variables it's easy to see why we've had so many winners and why any little misstake or any bad luck, any misfortune can change the outcome in a flash.


Fasiinating season the more I think about it. Many things must go right.


I can't remember where I read it but someone quoted one of the engineers saying that 2°C change in track temperature resulted in a .4s change in lap time. Imagine how many millions people spend on aero to gain .4s.

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#360 ivand911

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:45

Does the late race pace of the Mercs at Valencia indicate that their achilles heel is now manging tyres on maximum weight conditions? I just struggle to understand the inconsistency of the team to maximise their performance. The car wasn't that great in qualifying yet set the fastest lap of the race. I feel this weekend may be a struggle like Spa over the last two seasons.

They start with idea for one stop, so they drive conservatively at the start. MS was with mediums, Nico with S.
Last moment pace doesn't tell us anything about their real pace. Nico have newest tyres,so he set fastest times. As you know Q pace have nothing to do with race pace. Te best compromise is best Q and race pace. But, I guess it is hard to achieve. RBR manage to do it in Valencia. Nico did it in China.
They didn't struggle last year in Spa. Last year you finish where your car can finish. They have 4th best car, and they usually finish there. This year is about tyres, they are inconsistent, not the car. I think.
Marko said yesterday that cars with simple construction(Williams,Sauber), manage to use tyres better. Lotus maybe too.


#361 ivand911

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 10:09

According to some rumors from f1technical , MGP did some crash-test last week. Maybe we will see some good updates. And big ,if they involve crash-test. New exhaust?

#362 Sakae

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 10:24

Most newsworthy is to hear that they are still developping the car, put it differently, at least for now, it is business as usual. (BE's saga...)

#363 ivand911

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 17:50

f1fanatic_co_uk: Cheeky Q5: "Rob and Martin, what will you do to keep your drivers, and Ross what will you do to take them?"

f1fanatic_co_uk: Ross Brawn (RB): "We have Nico under a reasonably long-term contract. We're very pleased with Nico's performance in and out of the car."
f1fanatic_co_uk: RB: "With Michael we'll make a decision this summer. I think this year he's driven best of the 3 years he's been with us."

#364 Szoelloe

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 21:01

According to some rumors from f1technical , MGP did some crash-test last week. Maybe we will see some good updates. And big ,if they involve crash-test. New exhaust?



Most newsworthy is to hear that they are still developping the car, put it differently, at least for now, it is business as usual. (BE's saga...)


Ross Brawn has said in Valencia, that they have a reasonable upgrade coming for Silverstone.


#365 Kingshark

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:45

Mercedes’s entire performance is reliant on temperature, nothing more. I don’t think it could be any more obvious especially with Rosberg in Canada – He was very slow in the opening laps, but when the track temperature dropped drastically, he suddenly became the fastest car on the circuit. Mercedes went from being unbeatable in China to being nowhere in Bahrain. Then they went on from being a moving chicane in Spain, to be the fastest car in Monaco.

Merc have been pretty unlucky with the weather so far this season, as we've had an usual amount of hot races. In other words, they are better than they appear. Well, next up are Silverstone and Hockenheim, two circuits which are generally cold, which should suit them. Let’s see what happens.

Here's hope from someone who is a fan of both Nico and Michael.

Edited by Kingshark, 04 July 2012 - 02:46.


#366 KiloWatt

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:25

Mercedes’s entire performance is reliant on temperature, nothing more. I don’t think it could be any more obvious especially with Rosberg in Canada – He was very slow in the opening laps, but when the track temperature dropped drastically, he suddenly became the fastest car on the circuit. Mercedes went from being unbeatable in China to being nowhere in Bahrain. Then they went on from being a moving chicane in Spain, to be the fastest car in Monaco.


I've notices the Lotus is very dependent on temps as well. Only the inverse, the E20 seems to excel in th hotter races.

#367 Sakae

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:36

Mercedes’s entire performance is reliant on temperature, nothing more..

Are you sure of this?


#368 Sakae

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:38

Ross Brawn has said in Valencia, that they have a reasonable upgrade coming for Silverstone.

Hopefully development is facing forward direction...

#369 Szoelloe

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 15:34

Hopefully development is facing forward direction...


so far it has.


#370 MaxisOne

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 18:13

so far it has.



If Red Bull has stolen a march on getting a substantial amount of downforce at the rear of car with its revised tunnel config i think everyone including Merc is in deep poo and considering MGP's differing upgrade ideology to the top teams there is a higher possibility we could be lost at sea this upgrade cycle.

We will see. I sincerely hope a solution is devised that is able to regulate the tyre temps and keep them reasonably in the operating window regardless if the external temps. The only thing i can think of is some sort of brake duct aperture and routing that opens and closes aperture size based on the desired temp range but im sure that's clearly illegal.

#371 Kingshark

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 02:03

I've notices the Lotus is very dependent on temps as well. Only the inverse, the E20 seems to excel in th hotter races.

Indeed. But Lotus have simply been lucky because there have been an unusual amount of hot races this season. I do believe that Mercedes in cold weather is still a bit quicker (relative to the competition) than Lotus in hot weather.

#372 Timstr11

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:26

Indeed. But Lotus have simply been lucky because there have been an unusual amount of hot races this season. I do believe that Mercedes in cold weather is still a bit quicker (relative to the competition) than Lotus in hot weather.

Lotus have a faster car overall. I would not call it luck.
The high speed nature and abrasiveness of the Silverstone track will generate enough energy in the tyres, so I don't see an issue for Lotus.

The W03 will have something else to prove this weekend: whether they've improved their high speed performance. A known weak point.
It may have improved, but not by much I think.
I expect a mediocre performance this weekend.

Edited by Timstr11, 05 July 2012 - 06:27.


#373 ivand911

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:28

Front of the garage ‪#F1‬ ‪#Silverstone
https://twitter.com/...7018626/photo/1
https://twitter.com/...0749440/photo/1

I hope they will setup car right for wet weekend and they will be fine.

Edited by ivand911, 05 July 2012 - 08:30.


#374 Kingshark

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:42

Lotus have a faster car overall. I would not call it luck.
The high speed nature and abrasiveness of the Silverstone track will generate enough energy in the tyres, so I don't see an issue for Lotus.

You've missed one of the main points - It's very cold in Silverstone, Lotus are quite poor at getting heat into their tyres.

The W03 will have something else to prove this weekend: whether they've improved their high speed performance. A known weak point.
It may have improved, but not by much I think.
I expect a mediocre performance this weekend.

Yeah Shanghai's middle sector is all slow corners; where Rosberg was half a second faster than everyone else.

As I said before; it has nothing to do with circuit characters or anything; Mercedes's entire performance is based on weather, nothing more.

#375 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:52

You've missed one of the main points - It's very cold in Silverstone, Lotus are quite poor at getting heat into their tyres.

Yeah Shanghai's middle sector is all slow corners; where Rosberg was half a second faster than everyone else.

As I said before; it has nothing to do with circuit characters or anything; Mercedes's entire performance is based on weather, nothing more.


I don't think it's Mercedes' problem.
I would say Mercedes/McLaren even Sauber work better in cold conditions, RB/Lotus/Williams in hotter ones


#376 Timstr11

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:10

You've missed one of the main points - It's very cold in Silverstone, Lotus are quite poor at getting heat into their tyres.

No, I haven't.
Tyre temperature is not only a function of track temperature. The high cornering speeds at Silverstone and the abrasiveness of the track are factors as well. These will help generate the required temperature in the tyres for those teams struggling most with that.


#377 ivand911

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:27

Last time they have wet race MGP didn't manage to heat wet tyres(this could be because of Saturday setup). Now this shouldn't be a problem then.

#378 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:28

No, I haven't.
Tyre temperature is not only a function of track temperature. The high cornering speeds at Silverstone and the abrasiveness of the track are factors as well. These will help generate the required temperature in the tyres for those teams struggling most with that.

that's clear but settings are also different to "tackle" the high speed challenge. Remember China middle sector?

the difference between a 50C degree Silverstone track and a 20C degree one are still huge, not matter what corners are there.

#379 eoin

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:31

No, I haven't.
Tyre temperature is not only a function of track temperature. The high cornering speeds at Silverstone and the abrasiveness of the track are factors as well. These will help generate the required temperature in the tyres for those teams struggling most with that.


Fast corners work the front tyres so if it is cold teams might be struggling for rear grip.

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#380 ivand911

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 20:32

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#381 BetaVersion

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:10

Lotus have a faster car overall. I would not call it luck.
The high speed nature and abrasiveness of the Silverstone track will generate enough energy in the tyres, so I don't see an issue for Lotus.

The W03 will have something else to prove this weekend: whether they've improved their high speed performance. A known weak point.
It may have improved, but not by much I think.
I expect a mediocre performance this weekend.

same here.

Somebody posted the onboard laps from Malaysian qualifying, somewhere, and Schumacher was losing some 20kmh compared to Kimi in the first high speed corners of Sepang.

I expect Mercedes to be slow in the sector that includes Copse, Beckets/Maggots, Stowe.

Yeah Shanghai's middle sector is all slow corners; where Rosberg was half a second faster than everyone else.

As I said before; it has nothing to do with circuit characters or anything; Mercedes's entire performance is based on weather, nothing more.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's like that. They had high top speed, due to DDRS, on Friday, then, for Saturday, they changed setup to put lot more downforce and became average on top speed, their S2 was the fastest in qualifying, but only by 1,5 tenth to 3rd(Webber).

So even with exchanged top speed/downforce(DDRS enabled them to do it there), they were not so much faster than other cars and Shanghai's S2 doesn't even have true high speed corners but rather a couple of medium speed ones.

#382 ivand911

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:12

I don't see new stuff on the car.

#383 Urawa

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:14

still no cascades.
so they took a bit front DF away to balance the car with the rear?

#384 ivand911

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:25

still no cascades.
so they took a bit front DF away to balance the car with the rear?

Probably, but what this mean they are very bad on DF? Not good.
Still I don't understand why they don't use any devices, sensors, flow wiz to measure actual thing. Nothing is pointing to the fact that they don't need this. Their situation is not rose. I understand somebody like RBR(but they do it) to not do it? But MGP are not in this position.

Edited by ivand911, 06 July 2012 - 09:33.


#385 BigCHrome

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:49

Did anyone notice that hole on the side of Schumi's engine cover?

Yeah, also taking off the cascades must be to add more understeer to the car to protect the rear tires.

#386 Lamag

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:26

Mercedes has revealed that it is bucking the traditional push to prioritise aerodynamic improvements to its car - because it believes there is a bigger benefit to be had from better tyre management.

While its major rivals – including McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull Racing – have all brought a series of big aero updates over the last few races, Mercedes team principal Ross Brawn says his team has put attention instead on other facets of its car.

"We have been focusing on tyre usage, tyre management and tyre control, and things related to that," he said ahead of the British Grand Prix.

"It has become clear that there is no doubt pure aero downforce helps, but given some of the disparity between lap times of the cars, it is less significant than using the tyres properly.

"So we have done quite a lot of work on the variables that we can control with regard to the tyres. This could be quite a challenging weekend with the weather, so getting the tyres working in cold conditions and getting the wets to work properly is we think a vital part of the weekend."

Brawn thinks that the nature of the season, with the battle at the front of the field closer than it has been for years and tyres playing such an important role, means that the 2012 development race will not be as usual this year.

"The developments are of a different nature," he said. "Perhaps in previous years it has been a simple equation of let's find some more downforce, let's have less drag and some more efficiency, and you always go faster. But this year, if that is not of the right characteristics, you may find the benefits are not so good.

"To perhaps give you a pointer, in qualifying in Valencia it was incredibly close with I don't know how many cars within a couple of tenths of a second – and it is highly unlikely that all those cars had the same downforce.

"So there are other parameters which are coming into force, which we have to understand and we have to find ways of unlocking.

"I think the development will be critical, but it will perhaps develop in different ways – maybe with suspension geometry. Perhaps how you manage tyre temperature and other factors will come into play, other than perhaps the traditional ones we have had in previous years."


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100934

#387 rog

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:35

Lol earlier this year the team optimistically stated they can concentrate on improving the car performance this year rather than sorting out tyre issues, aerodynamic and things like that. Months later we can say it was too optimistic, they struggled with the tyres which forced them to disregard on the aero department.

#388 ivand911

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:53

Lol earlier this year the team optimistically stated they can concentrate on improving the car performance this year rather than sorting out tyre issues, aerodynamic and things like that. Months later we can say it was too optimistic, they struggled with the tyres which forced them to disregard on the aero department.

Yeah, mess. I don't think all other teams are wrong(to work on car development) and Mercedes is right to focus on tyres only. Sounds like cheap F1 to me. I see where this is going . At the end of the year we will hear from them : We were wrong to focus on tyres only and all teams jump us.

Edited by ivand911, 06 July 2012 - 11:55.


#389 baddog

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:32

Well given we have two teams with blatantly worse aero tech doing well in all races, this makes a lot of sense.

#390 Pizdek

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:38

brum brum bruuuuuuum... Here comes... the Merc!!

Excited ahead of Silverstone, one of the best track for real drivers, not for pussys ;) Can Rosberg get back good form, can Schumacher shine again??? Any updates???


#391 ivand911

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:59

brum brum bruuuuuuum... Here comes... the Merc!!

Excited ahead of Silverstone, one of the best track for real drivers, not for pussys ;) Can Rosberg get back good form, can Schumacher shine again??? Any updates???

No,see post 386.


#392 MaxisOne

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 15:10

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100934


Oh dear ... validation of my previous post and as usual ...big risk of going the wrong way. :confused:

#393 rog

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 16:04

With all the rain it would be difficult to draw any conclusions from new aero parts, so I hope they bring something new for the next race.

#394 ivand911

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:41

Race pace not very good, comparing to Lotus. Maybe rain will help. Or not.

#395 Augurk

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:43

Race pace not very good, comparing to Lotus. Maybe rain will help. Or not.

Performance in saturday trainings don't say anything.

#396 Augurk

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 12:23

Phew that was close.

#397 RedBaron

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 12:24

Rosberg is a lucky lucky man. Schumacher safely through. Nico I think is really feeling his lack of running this morning.



#398 ivand911

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 12:27

Rosberg is a lucky lucky man. Schumacher safely through. Nico I think is really feeling his lack of running this morning.

He did 15 laps in FP3. Not bad. If that was Michael he for sure will get beaten for 17th place. Nico has so much luck.


#399 baddog

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 12:44

Nico struggling on Inters, Michael struggling on wets.. different car setup between them?

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#400 Sof1

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 12:46

Its just the changing conditions, whoever gets to complete a good lap the ealiest (at the right time) will luck into a good lap time and a good position.