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BRM P48s


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#1 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 20:39

Three P48s ( P48-57s ?)appeared at Shelsley Walsh hillclimb on June 3 (along with a P25 , the Techcraft-BRM 4WD a P261 and the Leyland Royal Tiger transporter as part of a BRM theme to the event.)

When was the last time three of these appeared together I wonder?

Two of them suitably arrived in the Leyland .

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One had a V8 with stack-pipes and was said to be the ex Tony Marsh car which raced and hillclimbed in 1962

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The second was a four-banger.

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The third was Bruce Spollen's car which has been entered at hillclimbs a couple of times in recent years but hasn't actually appeared (to my knowledge).
I didn't get a photo of this one(or the Techcraft), being stuck single-handed on my bookstall at the time it was briefly on display in the truly dreadful conditions that prevailed all weekend.

Anyone know which chassis these cars actually are?

Edited by simonlewisbooks, 05 June 2012 - 10:17.


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#2 Barry Boor

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 20:42

Those exhausts on the #7 car look really odd to me.

#3 Ted Walker

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 06:45

I thought the "Spollen Car" was the ex Marsh car Simon ?????

#4 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:26

I thought the "Spollen Car" was the ex Marsh car Simon ?????


Well this is what I was wondering Ted. The V8 car was touted as the '62 title winning V8' in advance PR, which clearly it isn't.
I know Marsh ran a V8 powered 48-57 but assumed the engine had gone into his self-built special and the chassis back to BRM (wasn't there a legal action?).
The commentary described the V8 as the ex Marsh car on Saturday when the Spollen car wasn't present.
So which chassis is that with the stack-pipes? I don't recall seeing it before (although it may well have been at any number of Goodwood events I've missed).

The P25 that was present was described as the Dutch GP winner, which IIRC was the car totalled in Australia in a fatal accident some years ago?

#5 Roger Clark

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:45

Was there such a car as a P48-57? I thought there was:

(1) The P48 which was raced throughout must of 1960 with a single rear brake on the back of the gearbox and strut rear suspension;
(2) The P48 Mark 2, which had rear brakes on the hubs and wishbone rear suspension. It first appeared at the end of 1960 and was also used in 1961 Intercontinantal formula races;
(3) The P57, raced in 1961 Formula 1 with a Climax FPF engine. THey were fitted with a V8 in 1962.

The P48 Mark 2 and the P57 looked similar but the latter was smaller and slimmer. The four-cylinder car pictured appear to have a BRM engine (not a Climax anyway).

But I may be wrong.

#6 sabrejet

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:46

Three P48s ( P48-57s ?)appeared at Prescott hillclimb on June 3 (along with a P25 , the Techcraft-BRM 4WD a P261 and the Leyland Royal Tiger transporter as part of a BRM theme to the event.)

When was the last time three of these appeared together I wonder?


Shelsley surely?

Did you get any photos of the Techcraft?

#7 Stephen W

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:53

Did you get any photos of the Techcraft?


The Techcraft-BRM 4-w-d lives in Coventry Transport Museum or at least it used to!

#8 cdrewett

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:13

Well this is what I was wondering Ted. The V8 car was touted as the '62 title winning V8' in advance PR, which clearly it isn't.
I know Marsh ran a V8 powered 48-57 but assumed the engine had gone into his self-built special and the chassis back to BRM (wasn't there a legal action?).
The commentary described the V8 as the ex Marsh car on Saturday when the Spollen car wasn't present.
So which chassis is that with the stack-pipes? I don't recall seeing it before (although it may well have been at any number of Goodwood events I've missed).

The P25 that was present was described as the Dutch GP winner, which IIRC was the car totalled in Australia in a fatal accident some years ago?


Bruce Spollon's car is ex-Marsh with 2.5 litre engine that spent some time in the Marsh Special until that was totalled at Rest and be Thankful. It is chassis 484 that Marsh bought with both 2.5 litre and 1.5 V8,the latter to be used for circuit races.
The other car was brought by Hall and Hall and is the ex Tony Brooks works car, bought from BRM by Phil Scragg, then by Tony Griffiths who sold it to Tom Wheatcroft, so presumably Donington fitted the V8.
Chris

#9 cdrewett

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:14

The Techcraft-BRM 4-w-d lives in Coventry Transport Museum or at least it used to!


Still does

#10 Alan Cox

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:30

The P25 that was present was described as the Dutch GP winner, which IIRC was the car totalled in Australia in a fatal accident some years ago?

Your third pic, Simon, is of the car now owned by Barrie Baxter which finished third on its recent outing at Monaco. It's the ex-Donington car which, I believe, is the ex-Tony Griffiths hillclimb car. I think it's #487, but seem to recall discussion on some ancient thread about P48s when a query about #486 was raised

The Dutch GP car wasn't destroyed in Spencer Flack's fatal accident, but although very badly damaged when the chassis split, it was rebuilt by Hall and Hall while still owned by Spencer's widow, Carole. It finished second at Monaco a few weeks ago in Gary Pearson's hands.

The Techcraft-BRM 4-w-d lives in Coventry Transport Museum or at least it used to!

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Race Retro 2012


#11 Tim Murray

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:45

Was there such a car as a P48-57? I thought there was:

(1) The P48 which was raced throughout must of 1960 with a single rear brake on the back of the gearbox and strut rear suspension;
(2) The P48 Mark 2, which had rear brakes on the hubs and wishbone rear suspension. It first appeared at the end of 1960 and was also used in 1961 Intercontinantal formula races;
(3) The P57, raced in 1961 Formula 1 with a Climax FPF engine. THey were fitted with a V8 in 1962.

The P48 Mark 2 and the P57 looked similar but the latter was smaller and slimmer. The four-cylinder car pictured appear to have a BRM engine (not a Climax anyway).

But I may be wrong.

There's a good discussion on P48s and P57s in this earlier thread:

Arnold Glass and his BRM P48

which includes this definitive statement from Doug:

This is extremely kind of all you blokes to wrestle this topic so energetically. One thing I can assure you of is that, absolutely REGARDLESS of what the Paul Sheldon - Duncan Rabagliati Formula 1 Register listings infer, the P48 and the P57 BRM chassis are VERY different animals.

The only thing they really featured in common was that the poor little P57 was saddled with P48-sized rubber bag tanks as an economy measure to save the price of manufacturing new master moulds for smaller bags. Budget savings were invested - rightly - in the different again P578 V8 tube-frame chassis.

While seven P48s - of varying design - were constructed - there were only three P57s and - as I explained in a mammoth brain-ache session with Allen the other night - in effect only three P578s at any one time - although chassis numbers for them run '5781' to '5785' and one number was used twice (or was it three times, Alllen).

I am so chuffed I started all this....or did I???? :confused:

DCN



#12 Allen Brown

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:03

... one number was used twice (or was it three times, Alllen).


Yes it was :drunk:

#13 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:18

Shelsley surely?


Opps, you're right of course,the weather had clearly got to me over the weekend! Initial post suitably edited.

#14 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:54

To recap -
The Spollon car is Marsh's P48 with BRM 4 cyl
The other 4 cyl car Barrie Baxter's a P57 with BRM 4 cyl (Alan says ex Griffeths)
The V8 is also a P57 the ex Donington car which seems to have had a V8 fitted out of period? (Chris says ex Griffeths, or am I getting even more confused?)

To add a couple of period shots....

This one (P57?) I am told once lived near me in the Forest of Dean, owned first by Jack Eldersley who lived a mile up the road, then by Lydbrook Garage proprietor Eric Webb. It's seen here being driven up the main road from Lydbrook to Joy's Green by one of his mechanics. Jimmy Dunkley, in the early 60s ( somewhat in contravention of the road traffic laws!). This one was tested on the Acorn Patch kart track which used to be located in the middle of Speech House enclosure(wood) in the 60s , about a mile up a gravel Forestry Commission road, and was a regular service halt on the RAC and Wyedean stages for many years.
I'm not sure Webb ever competed with it but it is said to have ended up at Donington, so presume it's the V8 car from Shelsley?
This tale was recounted to me by former Lotus 22 hillclimber Ian Waldin who was offered an entry in the BRM one one ocassion but said the car needed too much work to be ready in time. Anyone know any more details about Elderlsley or Webb's ownership?

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Photo Ian Waldin.


The other is from Prescott in 1963 -Griffeths ?

Posted Image

#15 cdrewett

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:47

To recap -
The Spollon car is Marsh's P48 with BRM 4 cyl
The other 4 cyl car Barrie Baxter's a P57 with BRM 4 cyl (Alan says ex Griffeths)
The V8 is also a P57 the ex Donington car which seems to have had a V8 fitted out of period? (Chris says ex Griffeths, or am I getting even more confused?ther is from Prescott in 1963 -Griffeths ?

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Simon
I think you are still weather affected. Both rear-engined cars at Shelsley are T48s, the 57 is much slimmer and prettier. The one with stackpipes is the ex Tony Griffiths car ex Donington now owned by Barrie Baxter and V8 powered.When owned by Griffiths it had the 2.5 litre 4 cylinder engine.
The Prescott picture could also be Ray Fielding who had the ex Gurney 48 with 2.5 engine and bacon slicer rear brake.
Chris

#16 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 13:23

Simon
I think you are still weather affected. .
Chris


Oh I definitely am Chris! It was that kind of weekend wasn't it? In my case complete with leaky boots that meant wet feet for the entire weekend.
No matter how many pairs of dry socks I had with me, the damn boots refused to dry out so the feet remained soggy!
It clearly led to rising damp culminating in water-logging of the brain by teatime on Sunday.

Note to self - P48s are P48s and P57s are something different....

Now, does anyone know anything more about this P48 in the Forest of Dean?





#17 Roger Clark

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:26

Bruce Spollon's car is ex-Marsh with 2.5 litre engine that spent some time in the Marsh Special until that was totalled at Rest and be Thankful. It is chassis 484 that Marsh bought with both 2.5 litre and 1.5 V8,the latter to be used for circuit races.

Didn't Marsh fit the V8 into 573?

#18 Roger Clark

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:27

Note to self - P48s are P48s and P57s are something different....

And not all P48 are the same.

#19 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 20:09

And not all P48 are the same.

Bloody 'ell this gets more complicated by the post ! :lol:

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#20 Ted Walker

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 08:03

Simon I think you mean Jack Alserslade, He intalled a V8 Chevy in it and used it in club racing. He also owned an ex works Le Mans Tiger.

#21 Stephen W

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 08:29

Bruce Spollon's car is ex-Marsh with 2.5 litre engine that spent some time in the Marsh Special until that was totalled at Rest and be Thankful. It is chassis 484 that Marsh bought with both 2.5 litre and 1.5 V8,the latter to be used for circuit races.


When the "ex-Marsh" car came up for sale (at Hall & Hall if memory serves) Tony went to see it but after inspecting the car he left without even considering an offer, he told me that the restoration was shoddy and it would cost too much to "put it right".

#22 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 09:05

Simon I think you mean Jack Alserslade, He intalled a V8 Chevy in it and used it in club racing. He also owned an ex works Le Mans Tiger.


Thanks Ted, that would be the chap ( but Alderslade) . I misheard; in a Forest of Dean accent "...slade" and "...sley" sound similar.

That opens up several references on Google, I can see him entered Libre events in 1967

http://www.formula2.net/F367_GB18.htm
http://www.gdecarli......club 1967.pdf

And reference to it being chassis '484' (the ex Marsh car?)and still with a 2.5 BRM engine at this point.
'485' is also mentioned being entered by Joey Steele with a 4.7 Ford engine.

Jack also owned the ex Ecosse Jaguar XKD502 (MWS302) it seems.


#23 Doug Nye

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 22:13

The P48 story is detailed, together with chassis histories, in a not too-long outdated book...Volume 3, if memory serves?

DCN

#24 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 22:32

The P48 story is detailed, together with chassis histories, in a not too-long outdated book...Volume 3, if memory serves?

DCN

2, but none the worse for that.

#25 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 09:31

The P48 story is detailed, together with chassis histories, in a not too-long outdated book...Volume 3, if memory serves?

DCN


But I only have a Vol 1 left in stock at the moment..... :|

#26 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 09:43

Posted Image


Chris, you were right, this is indeed Fielding. There is a shot on Mike Hayward's site showing a P48 at Harewood in 63 with the same nose band and driver .

#27 Roger Clark

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 17:06

What has happened to the P57s since the publication of BRM Vol 2?

#28 Doug Nye

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 12:10

2, but none the worse for that.


Thanks Roger - this repetition all serves to expand promotional exposure for the right one, as I said, Volume 1 (this to help Simon move his stock).

DCN


#29 Macca

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 12:19

No, no, I'm sure it'll all be in 4, which will have to be an enormous tome to include all the H16s, V12s, changes/lack of sponsor, and portentious statements by Big Lou; so another few chapters summarising 1-3 will be neither here nor there.........

Paul M

#30 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 13:16

Thanks Roger - this repetition all serves to expand promotional exposure for the right one, as I said, Volume 1 (this to help Simon move his stock).

DCN


:up: Thanks Doug! details here




#31 Doug Nye

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 18:50

Hold on a mo... I'll just dash it off.

DCN

#32 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 19:53

Hold on a mo... I'll just dash it off.

DCN

You've had an hour now Doug....where is it then? :lol:

#33 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:53

Never knowingly premature... :blush:

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#34 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:56

Just been chatting with James Drury who's dad Malcolm had a couple of runs at Harewood in Brian Waddilove's BRM P48 in the mid 60s.
There's a photo on the Harewood site of Brian stuffing the car in some fashion at around this time(64). The caption says the car was "ex Ginther"(?) . Anyone recall which chassis Waddilove ran? Or even better, have any other photos?

#35 Tim Murray

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:31

This is the potted history of the Waddilove car, chassis 486, from Doug in 2003. I wonder what's happened to it since:

(etc)

486 - strut-rear suspension, 3-brake car - Dan Gurney's late-season 1960 car - winner at Ballarat, Australia, 1961 - this is the Ray Fielding hill-climb car 1962-63, Sir John Townley, Brian Waddilove, Mike Stow, cannibalised by Stow for his original front-engined BRM Type 25 recreation programme (which pre-dated Wheatcroft's) - to Robs Lamplough UK - survives stripped, knackered - unrestored today. SURVIVES.

(etc)

DCN



#36 Roger Clark

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:07

Just been chatting with James Drury who's dad Malcolm had a couple of runs at Harewood in Brian Waddilove's BRM P48 in the mid 60s.
There's a photo on the Harewood site of Brian stuffing the car in some fashion at around this time(64). The caption says the car was "ex Ginther"(?) . Anyone recall which chassis Waddilove ran? Or even better, have any other photos?

I don't think Ginther drove a P48.

#37 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:19

I don't think Ginther drove a P48.

Thats what I thought, hence the "(?)" :lol:

#38 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:20

This is the potted history of the Waddilove car, chassis 486, from Doug in 2003. I wonder what's happened to it since:


Thanks Tim, so in fact I had a photo of this one already in Fielding's hands (see above)

#39 Doug Nye

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 18:35

This is the potted history of the Waddilove car, chassis 486, from Doug in 2003. I wonder what's happened to it since:


Still survives in Robs's ownership, after many years as a stripped frame now beginning a comprehensive Hall & Hall restoration to running order.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 12 October 2012 - 18:45.


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#40 RWB

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 14:21

I have read this thread several times but still can't decide whether the P48 with the stackpipes has been identified. It was also at the Revival together with Hall & Hall's "482". So if the stackpipe car isn't Baxter's "487", is it Spollon's "483"? Or is the Goodwood car David Clark's P57 ("573"?) now with those stack pipes?

Edited by RWB, 25 October 2012 - 17:10.