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Nissan Deltawing: The Future of Motorsport?


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#51 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 15:29

Given its budget it's right where it should be, in the LMP2 mix.

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 05 June 2012 - 15:29.


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#52 BetaVersion

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 15:52

So Marino Franchitti says the stablility on high speed is mega?!

I don't believe it, this should handle very badly

#53 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:00

Are you making that assumption based on your motorsport engineering experience or just your eyes?

#54 sosidge

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:04

I have no objections to the appearance of the car nor to it's entry as #56...

...but I just don't see how it can corner well, no matter how much trickery you put into the design. The lack of front track width is a massive obstacle.

#55 Slowinfastout

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:08

It has lmp 2 pace with a 150hp deficit, I think it has proven to be able to corner just fine.

My only problem with it as of now is that I still find it ugly, as for the rest I'm just extremely curious and fascinated.

It would be very cool if they end up having good reliability, because they will have very good fuel economy.. so in theory they actually could produce an eye-opening result.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 05 June 2012 - 16:11.


#56 Bunchies

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:13

Your Google driven private car could look a bit like that in 10-20 years time :)


Pfft, as if I'd actually want someone/something to drive me around. Then there's no point in even buying a vehicle.

#57 maverick69

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:14

It has lmp 2 pace with a 150hp deficit, I think it has proven to be able to corner just fine.

My only problem with it as of now is that I still find it ugly, as for the rest I'm just extremely curious and fascinated.

It would be very cool if they end up having good reliability because they will have very good fuel economy so in theory they actually could produce an eye-opening result.


They're also running full ground effects etc. as they are outside of the rules.

Let the LMP2 cars do that for example and they'd be off the scale in terms of laptimes.

#58 Bunchies

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:15

So Marino Franchitti says the stablility on high speed is mega?!

I don't believe it, this should handle very badly


High speed stability != Handles very well

You know front wheel drive cars have very good stability (they track straight on power), but they don't "handle as well" as most RWD cars.

Stable does not always mean great handling.

#59 Slowinfastout

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:17

They're also running full ground effects etc. as they are outside of the rules.

Let the LMP2 cars do that for example and they'd be off the scale in terms of laptimes.


I understand all that, but the point still stands..

You have to assume the Deltawing is pretty much in the process of writing it's own rules, but it's still interesting to see where it stacks up.

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#60 MattPete

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:20

Compared to the McNish-driven #2 Audi. It was 7-8 seconds off the 3:40 target time that the ACO set for it (as far as I'm aware), but this on the car's first outing at Le Mans. Peaked at 307 kph in a straight line, not bad for 300 bhp. The real test in terms of laptimes is going to be in qualifying and the race though, Test Day times mean relatively little.


More like 2 seconds:

Our job is different. We’re not competing for a race win‚ but we are showing what is possible‚ and so the ACO has laid down a lap time for us‚ 3:45‚ which should be about in the middle of the LMP pack

Fastest LMP2: Heinemeier Hansson/Nicolet/Pla OAK Morgan-Nissan 3m41.291s
DeltaWing: Franchitti/Krumm/Motoyama Highcroft Delta Wing Nissan 3m47.980s
Slowest LMP2: Haezebrouck/Thirion/Papin Extreme Limite Norma-Judd 3m58.712s

#61 maverick69

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:22

I understand all that, but the point still stands..

You have to assume the Deltawing is pretty much in the process of writing it's own rules, but it's still interesting to see where it stacks up.


Agreed


#62 MattPete

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:27

I understand all that, but the point still stands..

You have to assume the Deltawing is pretty much in the process of writing it's own rules, but it's still interesting to see where it stacks up.


That's pretty much the point, isn't it? We get so hung up at times about which car is better (when comparing series), that we forget that the real differences isn't in the quality of engineering, but in the rule books.

The question the Deltawing is trying to ask is: is this a viable set of rules?


#63 sblick

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:30

I think they want to run it in the American Le Mans Series next year

There is a rumor it may run at Road America this year in the ALMS Race

#64 pingu666

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:35

looks ok in that video to me :)
Id like to see single seat, closed cockpit (f16/ww2 fighter style), close up the rear wheels like the group c jag's. maybe drs on the spoiler

chuck some kers in too

very effecient way of going fast then, and be better looking :)


#65 Alx09

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:36

What happens when that car is T-boned right where the driver sits? Doesn't look very safe to me without sidepods.

#66 Slowinfastout

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:42

What happens when that car is T-boned right where the driver sits? Doesn't look very safe to me without sidepods.


The bodywork you have in mind doesn't offer much protection. They used a complete Aston AMR-One tub so you'd have to assume the car is as safe as that was.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 05 June 2012 - 16:43.


#67 Lazy

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:42

Pfft, as if I'd actually want someone/something to drive me around. Then there's no point in even buying a vehicle.


Humans won't be allowed to drive cars on public roads before too long, too unreliable :)

#68 Bunchies

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 16:55

Humans won't be allowed to drive cars on public roads before too long, too unreliable :)


Yeah? What makes you say that?

My country should focus on a million other pressing issues before tackling the huge problem of traffic accidents.

#69 gm914

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 17:03

What happens when that car is T-boned right where the driver sits? Doesn't look very safe to me without sidepods.

I'd also like to know if the Deltawing becomes a series, what happens when 2 Deltawings bang side-by-side going into an apex? That skinny front end/fat rear shape doesn't look very conducive to side-by-side racing to me.


#70 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 17:07

Why not? They'd overlap nicely if your front tire was in line with the other car's rear tire.

And after driving the things for a few days everyone would get used to the width of the rear track. These are meant to be professional drivers.

#71 Brandz07

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 17:10

Obviously I'm no expert in Aero, but why no rear wing?

#72 maverick69

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 17:12

Obviously I'm no expert in Aero, but why no rear wing?


Full ground effects.

#73 Brandz07

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 17:13

Full ground effects.


Nice. :up:

#74 MattPete

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 17:19

Full ground effects.



Yep.

Wings = drag = bad.

apparently the ground effects were cribbed from the 1981 Eagle Pepsi Challenger Indy car:

Posted Image
Bowlby found that grafting the underbody contours and side vortex generators from John Ward’s 1981 Eagle Indy car significantly improved what is commonly referred to as ground effects.

#75 Slowinfastout

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 17:20

Why not? They'd overlap nicely if your front tire was in line with the other car's rear tire.

And after driving the things for a few days everyone would get used to the width of the rear track. These are meant to be professional drivers.


Dunno, in certain situations it could be iffy.. You've got drivers clipping bollards and curbs with their front wing/splitter on certain tracks, they might not see their own front-wing but I'd argue it's easier to extrapolate where it is compared to figuring out where the back wheels of the Deltawing are at any given time.

There's something new with having such a narrow front track and a such a wide arse.. it won't be an issue at Le Mans, but I'd be curious to see Monaco.. or more likely; Baltimore.

To explain my point better, there's kind of a programmed way of clipping an apex with a racecar in a driver's mind, but with the Deltawing this optimal line is determined by the back wheels instead of the whole car, so that's a bit odd.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 05 June 2012 - 17:25.


#76 Rob G

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 17:29

Dunno, in certain situations it could be iffy.. You've got drivers clipping bollards and curbs with their front wing/splitter on certain tracks, they might not see their own front-wing but I'd argue it's easier to extrapolate where it is compared to figuring out where the back wheels of the Deltawing are at any given time.

There's something new with having such a narrow front track and a such a wide arse.. it won't be an issue at Le Mans, but I'd be curious to see Monaco.. or more likely; Baltimore.

I've been thinking the same thing. Good luck having a tight wheel-to-wheel battle or properly clipping apices lap after lap with that thing. It'd be like riding a Big Wheel through a crowded room without mashing anyone's foot.

I've hated the DildoWang since day one. Not only does it look terrible, but it's answering a question that nobody needed to ask. Of course, that's all just my opinion.

#77 Slowinfastout

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 17:32

It'd be like riding a Big Wheel through a crowded room without mashing anyone's foot.


Love the analogy :D

You just made me realize I may already have a ton of Deltawing-like experience, lol

#78 Lazy

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 17:54

Yeah? What makes you say that?

My country should focus on a million other pressing issues before tackling the huge problem of traffic accidents.


I see.

#79 pingu666

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 17:55

test drivers said it was fine for that, so
but ultimately we will see when they race

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#80 Option1

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:11

So if I'm reading this right, the Deltawing* is allowed to use ground effects despite the rules specifically forbidding anyone else from using them. And nobody sees a problem with this?

Neil

* And I was so tempted to call it the DildoWang © Rob G but decided to stay (semi-) classy.;)

Edited by Option1, 05 June 2012 - 18:14.


#81 Slowinfastout

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:16

So if I'm reading this right, the Deltawing* is allowed to use ground effects despite the rules specifically forbidding anyone else from using them. And nobody sees a problem with this?

Neil

* And I was so tempted to call it the DildoWang © Rob G but decided to stay (semi-) classy.;)


No worse than this 4wd car

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#82 pingu666

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:22

its a proof of concept

and normal lmp cars have much longer defusers than f1, so somewhat closer to ground effect

plus its not scraping the ground, and nissian only came onboard if the car was redicously safe. indepent wind tunnel/cfd tests where done and in them, it stayed on the ground at 200~mph, backwards :)


#83 BetaVersion

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:27

Are you making that assumption based on your motorsport engineering experience or just your eyes?

based on several things I studied at university when dealing with racing cars.

#84 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:27

So if I'm reading this right, the Deltawing* is allowed to use ground effects despite the rules specifically forbidding anyone else from using them. And nobody sees a problem with this?


No not really, it's a one off protoype with it's very own rules.
And put me in Rob G's camp, have not liked it since day one, but as a concept car in own one car class it will be interesting to see how it does.

#85 Option1

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:32

Except when it's being compared to LMP 2 for target lap times and the like, then it's not really a one-off. IMHO it then becomes a defacto LMP 2, and that's not even covering that it's already been suggested here and elsewhere as a possible replacement.

Neil

#86 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:34

based on several things I studied at university when dealing with racing cars.


So we're going to ignore Ben Bowlby or the fact that the car is running just fine.

#87 maverick69

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:42

I think a good test would to be to allow an LMP2 based "regular" car to have full ground-effects, freedom of the rules, play with the floor etc - yet have to use the 300 bhp 1600cc turbo..... then compare lap times.

Edited by maverick69, 05 June 2012 - 18:42.


#88 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:43

Except when it's being compared to LMP 2 for target lap times and the like, then it's not really a one-off. IMHO it then becomes a defacto LMP 2, and that's not even covering that it's already been suggested here and elsewhere as a possible replacement.

Neil

TBH, I've only seen it compared to LMP2 in only in a laptime context.
I personally hope to never see it again, but am still interested just to see if it can even get 12 hours in.


#89 saudoso

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:44

So if I'm reading this right, the Deltawing* is allowed to use ground effects despite the rules specifically forbidding anyone else from using them. And nobody sees a problem with this?


Not really. It's competing under specific conditions.

The problem is neglecting this fact and coming to the conclusion that the trike alike setup is as good as or even better than the rest of the field.

#90 saudoso

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:45

So we're going to ignore Ben Bowlby or the fact that the car is running just fine.

On a handycap.

#91 saudoso

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:47

Just take a look at the thread title. The marketing move has the people under the impression that this is indeed something that is so good that it could reshape racing.

Not.

Edited by saudoso, 05 June 2012 - 18:48.


#92 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:50

It could. If people adopt it it would certainly be a very different form of what we are used to.

And it's had an impressive amount of non-sports coverage. Nissan is definitely getting their money's worth. And the check is pretty big all things considered.

#93 Lazy

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 18:56

Nissan Deltawing

Half the weight, half the fuel consumption, half the tyre consumption.

Formula 1 could easily move in this direction if this prototype is successful.



Just take a look at the thread title. The marketing move has the people under the impression that this is indeed something that is so good that it could reshape racing.

Not.


I think the consumption thing is the important factor rather than it been as fast or faster than the competition.

#94 BigCHrome

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 19:05

I think a good test would to be to allow an LMP2 based "regular" car to have full ground-effects, freedom of the rules, play with the floor etc - yet have to use the 300 bhp 1600cc turbo..... then compare lap times.


The Porsche LMP2 was as fast as the Audi R10 at some tracks before the ACO decided that fast LMP2's are bad for the show (It was actually fantastic).

#95 Ali_G

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 19:08

So if I'm reading this right, the Deltawing* is allowed to use ground effects despite the rules specifically forbidding anyone else from using them. And nobody sees a problem with this?

Neil

* And I was so tempted to call it the DildoWang © Rob G but decided to stay (semi-) classy.;)


Not correct. LMP cars run with limited sized venturis.

#96 Ali_G

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 19:09

I think the consumption thing is the important factor rather than it been as fast or faster than the competition.


You do realise an F1 car weighs a small bit more than a Deltawing. In fact, take out the ballast and the F1 car would be lighter.

Edited by Ali_G, 05 June 2012 - 19:10.


#97 PNSD

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 19:15

You want innovation?

Look at the WR hydrogen entry for next year?

http://www.greengt.c...-data-sheet.pdf

This delta wing concept is nothing new, and it does not display any of the reasons I thought the was the point of the special le mans entry.

Am I the only highly unimpressed with this car? In fact the one thing I am impressed by is Michelin and the tyres they have developed, other than that what part of this car is relevant to the future, what part is even new ?

The very point that the car was born out of a failure to get into Indycar says enough.

Move along people, there REALLY is nothing to see.

#98 Ali_G

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 19:17

This delta wing concept is nothing new, and it does not display any of the reasons I thought the was the point of the special le mans entry.

Am I the only highly unimpressed with this car? In fact the one thing I am impressed by is Michelin and the tyres they have developed, other than that what part of this car is relevant to the future, what part is even new ?

The very point that the car was born out of a failure to get into Indycar says enough.

Move along people, there REALLY is nothing to see.


There is basically nothing innovative with this car. It's nothing more than conventional technology in a different shape.

#99 saudoso

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 19:19

You do realise an F1 car weighs a small bit more than a Deltawing. In fact, take out the ballast and the F1 car would be lighter.

Expanding the thought: But goes way faster. With uncovered wheels and barn door wings.

The whole exercise is comparing apples and oranges.

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#100 dau

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 19:24

There is basically nothing innovative with this car. It's nothing more than conventional technology in a different shape.

Well, duh. That's like saying next year's entry is not innovative because both electric motors and fuel cell technology have been there for ages.

Anyway, was this narrow front/wide rear track configuration with this peculiar weight distribution used in racing before? I mean on actual circuits, not drag racing.

And when exactly did we go from "it will never turn/it will roll over/they know nothing about vehicle dynamics" to "nothing new there"?

Edited by dau, 05 June 2012 - 19:25.