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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 18:04

I know it exists but I am not sure where. I have a feeling it might be in Autocourse. Anyway, somewhere there is a picture of Graham Hill's G.L.T.L. Lotus F.2 car shedding a wheel at Crystal Palace.

A Maltese friend of mine, upon seeing the wheel which is dull and tired-looking, having been in the loft in Wales for 26 years, said "You MUST get it cleaned up and put it on display." When I told him there is a photo of the wheel actually leaving the car he added "You MUST get a copy of the photo and display it with the wheel."

Is anyone able to help with the picture, please?

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#2 JB Miltonian

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 18:14

Barry: The picture in question appears in Competition Press / Autoweek, issue of June 29, 1968. The photo credit is given to David Phipps. This magazine is printed on pretty cheap paper, so the reproduction quality isn't very good, but if no one else comes up with a better image, I'll be happy to scan and send this one to you, just need a PM with your email address.

#3 swintex

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 18:16

Hello Barry, it's in my copy of "life at the Limit" facing page 145, credited to David Phipps.

Richard

#4 David Lawson

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 18:38

It is also on page 98 of Motor Racing Year 1968-9

David

#5 Barry Boor

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 18:40

Ah, I think maybe the latter post would explains where I've seen it.

I suppose copyright factors are relevant but any copy that I might obtain will remain within this apartment. :)

#6 D-Type

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 18:52

If you haven't told us the story previously (or even if you have!) could you please tell us the story of how the wheel comes to be in your possession.

#7 Twin Window

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 18:55

If it was indeed originally a Phipps pic and you can't source a decent copy, then Keith Sutton will (or should) hold the original negative.

#8 Barry Boor

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 19:15

When cousin Peter Connew was working for John Surtees he had occasion to go across to the Firestone factory in west London. When he was there he saw this wheel laying neglected in a corner. He asked where it came from and was told the story that it had departed from Graham's car at the Palace.

He asked if it was wanted and was told that it was no use to anyone and he could have it if he wanted it. He didn't want it himself but he told them that he knew someone who would like it. A few days later it was mine.

I created a coffee table with a large round piece of glass fixed to the top of it but it got broken when something fell on it - my first wife never liked it anyway - and when Heather and I got married it was put up in the loft where it stayed until my possessions were containered-up for the trip to Malta.

Co-incidentally, this very day I have been given the address of someone who can clean it up by sand-blasting it so it may well be restored to its shiny state pretty soon.

There is no authentication with it but the spoke to the left of the valve has broken off much shorter than the other three and this can be seen very clearly in the photo that I am hoping to obtain.

#9 Tim Murray

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 19:49

If it was indeed originally a Phipps pic and you can't source a decent copy, then Keith Sutton will (or should) hold the original negative.

I've had a go at searching the Sutton archive, but no joy - I'm probabaly using the wrong keywords. Here's the link if anyone else wants to try:

http://www.sutton-im...r.asp?index=380

#10 Frank S

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 20:10

When cousin Peter Connew was working for John Surtees he had occasion to go across to the Firestone factory in west London. When he was there he saw this wheel laying neglected in a corner. He asked where it came from and was told the story that it had departed from Graham's car at the Palace.

He asked if it was wanted and was told that it was no use to anyone and he could have it if he wanted it. He didn't want it himself but he told them that he knew someone who would like it. A few days later it was mine.

I created a coffee table with a large round piece of glass fixed to the top of it but it got broken when something fell on it - my first wife never liked it anyway - and when Heather and I got married it was put up in the loft where it stayed until my possessions were containered-up for the trip to Malta.

Co-incidentally, this very day I have been given the address of someone who can clean it up by sand-blasting it so it may well be restored to its shiny state pretty soon.

There is no authentication with it but the spoke to the left of the valve has broken off much shorter than the other three and this can be seen very clearly in the photo that I am hoping to obtain.

I would not NOT N O T clean it to shiny status. Not.




#11 kayemod

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 20:23

It is also on page 98 of Motor Racing Year 1968-9

David


I'm sure you're all dying to see it.

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#12 Tim Murray

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 20:28

Well I never. That's not the one in Life at the Limit.

#13 E1pix

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 20:31

I would not NOT N O T clean it to shiny status. Not.

Agreed, its value will fly away just like the wheel did.

#14 kayemod

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 20:39

Agreed, its value will fly away just like the wheel did.


Jacques Villeneuve's championship winning Williams is on display in the factory in Didcot, and until a year or two ago, it bore the infamous tyre mark from that cheating b*st*rd $cumacher's Ferrari. One morning Sir Frank arrived at work, to discover that one of the factory cleaners had painstakingly removed all traces of the blemish from the sidepod. Apparently Sir Frank was not pleased.


#15 D-Type

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 21:14

Jacques Villeneuve's championship winning Williams is on display in the factory in Didcot, and until a year or two ago, it bore the infamous tyre mark from that cheating b*st*rd $cumacher's Ferrari. One morning Sir Frank arrived at work, to discover that one of the factory cleaners had painstakingly removed all traces of the blemish from the sidepod. Apparently Sir Frank was not pleased.

Serves him flaming well right! :mad: He should have had the mark varnished it over to preserve it for posterity.

Given the number of cleaners from foreign parts, perhaps the cleaner was a secret $cumacher fan  ;)

#16 JB Miltonian

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 21:17

That's not the one in Competition Press, either. The one in CP shows the Lotus coming towards the cameraman, totally off the racing surface, with GH looking towards the wheel/tire as it rolls past.

#17 kayemod

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 21:26

That's not the one in Competition Press, either.


I can't really help in attributing the photographer, it's from Motor Racing and not individually credited, but David Phipps name doesn't appear in a list of 23 contributors printed elsewhere in that publication, surely they wouldn't have missed him out. Could it have been the work of Nigel Snowdon or Geoffrey Goddard, if the latter 'our Doug' may know more.


#18 Doug Nye

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 22:09

I always associated the CP Graham wheel pic with Phipps too. Definitely not Geoff's.

DCN


#19 E1pix

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 00:23

Jacques Villeneuve's championship winning Williams is on display in the factory in Didcot, and until a year or two ago, it bore the infamous tyre mark from that cheating b*st*rd $cumacher's Ferrari. One morning Sir Frank arrived at work, to discover that one of the factory cleaners had painstakingly removed all traces of the blemish from the sidepod. Apparently Sir Frank was not pleased.

Kinda reminds me of a longtime friend, a brilliant model maker. He spends hundreds of hours building perfection, then "destroys" them with marks, dirt, crash damage, water droplets, whatever. The end result looks fresh from battle, brilliant to behold in its authenticity.

Per Frank, I'm sure you're right that he was not at all pleased. ;)

Edited by E1pix, 07 June 2012 - 00:25.


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#20 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:46

When cousin Peter Connew was working for John Surtees he had occasion to go across to the Firestone factory in west London. When he was there he saw this wheel laying neglected in a corner. He asked where it came from and was told the story that it had departed from Graham's car at the Palace.

He asked if it was wanted and was told that it was no use to anyone and he could have it if he wanted it. He didn't want it himself but he told them that he knew someone who would like it. A few days later it was mine.

I created a coffee table with a large round piece of glass fixed to the top of it but it got broken when something fell on it - my first wife never liked it anyway - and when Heather and I got married it was put up in the loft where it stayed until my possessions were containered-up for the trip to Malta.

Co-incidentally, this very day I have been given the address of someone who can clean it up by sand-blasting it so it may well be restored to its shiny state pretty soon.

There is no authentication with it but the spoke to the left of the valve has broken off much shorter than the other three and this can be seen very clearly in the photo that I am hoping to obtain.

Keep the sandblaster well away from the rim. Metal polish and appropriate muscle or mechanisation is all it needs.

#21 Barry Boor

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:54

That isn't the picture I have in my mind, either.

As to Frank's comment about not cleaning it.... why ever not?

#22 Sharman

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:08

That isn't the picture I have in my mind, either.

As to Frank's comment about not cleaning it.... why ever not?

Don't sandblast it Barriy. Alloy doesn't like sand or grit. Needs bead blasting. Or even get it trichlorethylene dipped

#23 Barry Boor

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:30

Thank you, gentlemen. I will take your advice and restrict myself to fine emery cloth and elbow grease.

I have tested the water, so to speak, but this picture makes the polished area of the wheel appear somewhat less dull than it really is.

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#24 E1pix

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:07

Not my call of course, but to me the patina is absolutely at its most beautiful exactly as it is.

It's a beautiful piece, Barry, I wouldn't touch it any further. Just IMHO.

Enjoy it. :)

#25 jcbc3

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:36

... - my first wife never liked it anyway - and when Heather and I got married it was put up in the loft where it stayed ...


So Heather didn't like it either?  ;)

I'm in the 'keep-it-as-it-is' camp, btw.

#26 Catalina Park

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:05

My view is that it should be in the condition it was when you first got it. I am sure it wouldn't have been tarnished when it fell off the Lotus.

#27 kayemod

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:06

That isn't the picture I have in my mind, either.


Can someone show us the other pic, the one that Barry remembers?

Purely personal choice of course, but if I owned that wheel, I'd have it restored to 'exactly as it was when it fell off Graham's car' condition, as it appeared in period photos. You'd never have seen tarnished alloy on a Lotus would you? Surely that would achieve historical accuracy.


#28 David McKinney

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:22

I'm with you, Rob

#29 RCH

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:27

Kinda reminds me of a longtime friend, a brilliant model maker. He spends hundreds of hours building perfection, then "destroys" them with marks, dirt, crash damage, water droplets, whatever. The end result looks fresh from battle, brilliant to behold in its authenticity.

Per Frank, I'm sure you're right that he was not at all pleased.;)


Years ago now I sold a number of beautifully factory built Historic Replicars early '50's GP Ferraris to a then new customer. He phoned me when they arrived; "I'm not happy with these at all": "why ever not?" I asked. "Ferraris were never, ever as clean and smart as these" came the reply.

#30 Twin Window

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 13:05

I've had a go at searching the Sutton archive, but no joy - I'm probabaly using the wrong keywords. Here's the link if anyone else wants to try:

http://www.sutton-im...r.asp?index=380

In all likelihood, Tim, the explanation for that is that the negative has yet to be scanned.

#31 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 13:18

I agree that it would have been polished...

Just as the Williams was polished under that tyre mark. Polish it up real nice!

And maybe find another bit of glass for a table top.

#32 Tim Murray

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 15:03

In all likelihood, Tim, the explanation for that is that the negative has yet to be scanned.

Agreed, Stuart. I did try another search using every possible keyword combination I could think of, but it didn't show up. It does say on the Sutton site that not all the Phipps images have been scanned yet.

#33 David Beard

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 15:16

Don't sandblast it Barriy. Alloy doesn't like sand or grit. Needs bead blasting. Or even get it trichlorethylene dipped


I thought "Trike" was illegal these days?

#34 BRG

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 15:19

Jacques Villeneuve's championship winning Williams is on display in the factory in Didcot, and until a year or two ago, it bore the infamous tyre mark from that cheating b*st*rd $cumacher's Ferrari. One morning Sir Frank arrived at work, to discover that one of the factory cleaners had painstakingly removed all traces of the blemish from the sidepod. Apparently Sir Frank was not pleased.

Ah ha, do we now know what Schumi was doing during his lay-off from racing? A little part-time cleaning job to get out from under the wife's feet?

#35 E1pix

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 16:16

After reading through here, I suspect Barry is more confused than ever. This matter could drive one towards the nearest pub.  ;)

Rob really does make a good point above, "restored to exactly how it appeared after falling off of the car." So, perhaps another thought is...

Do you ever plan to sell this, Barry?
— If so, it might be wise to ask a proper racing memorabilia seller what's best to retain value.
— If not, do whatever is most pleasing to your eye — and/or, what Rob said.

Like Catalina Park eludes, I suspect "proper patina" (which is something I look for in other antique subjects) wasn't a Colin Chapman ideal. :)

It'll be a great centerpiece no matter what you do. :up:



#36 Sharman

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 16:27

I thought "Trike" was illegal these days?

SSSSSSH!

#37 Duc-Man

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 16:30

Sorry if I go OT but where is the tire?

#38 Frank S

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 19:05

That isn't the picture I have in my mind, either.

As to Frank's comment about not cleaning it.... why ever not?

Seems to me if it's completely polished to day-of-infamy condition, it's just another polished old wheel, and loses some of its (not necessarily monetary) value. I sense it is going to be "cleaned up"; I hope at least a dedicatory patch or two will be left as-is.


#39 D-Type

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 19:31

Is this really a 'patina' issue? I don't think so. 'Patina' is the 'lived-in' look a car gains with age and use. A 'barn find' car doesn't have 'patina' - it just has muck and rust. This wheel comes into the latter category. The krud on it is just that - it is not 'patina'

Barry, I think you should clean it up and restore it to the state it was when it parted company with Graham's car, ie the [originally] visible bits polished and the non visible bits, ie where the tyre was, clear of corrosion products but not shiny. Then give it a coating of clear laquer to ensure it stays that way. Do not overdo the polishing and produce a 'Pebble Beach' finish.

I'm trying to think if there is a more appropriate table top than a piece of glass - something like a circular enamelled advertising sign for Dunlop. Or how about two sheets of glass with the photo sandwiched between them. I don't think a large TNF badge would be a good idea.

Then sit back and enjoy your conversation piece.

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#40 swintex

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 19:40

advertising sign for Dunlop.

Firestone would be more appropriate, Shirley… sorry… Duncan.

I'll get me coat.
Richard

#41 Barry Boor

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 19:46

It has been really interesting reading everyone's views on this.

I certainly favour the 'as it came off the car' condition so that's what I shall aim at.

The other thing that I haven't mentioned is the outside surface. It was gloss black originally, with a couple of areas of damage where the brake caliper dug in as the wheel came off. I filled those, smoothed them off, then to suit the room in which the coffee table would be placed, I painted the outside gold, some of which you can see remaining in the above photo.

I think I will try to remove the filler and then paint it black again.

I don't want to make it into a table again but then again, I like the idea of having the photo in the center. I will have to think about that one.

The tyre was nowhere to be seen when Peter found the wheel.

And I'm not sure whether Heather liked it or not, there just wasn't anywhere in our little home in Wales for it. I'd dearly love to be able to ask her......

#42 D-Type

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 20:02

What's the alternative to a table? Door stop, umbrella stand, wine cooler if you can fit a watertight base, wastepaper bin if it isn't watertight, boat anchor (no not with salt water), padded top to make a stool (but you wouldn't be able to see the interesting bit). Difficult, isn't it!

#43 E1pix

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 20:10

D-Type's idea of a Dunlop logo is pretty cool, as is having the photo in the center.

The photo as an 8x10, surrounded by the logo, both of them transparent and screen-printed on the bottom of the glass, would be awesome. That way the wheel would still be visible and it would be one Helluva great look. I'd be happy to donate the art if you'd like.

At least that's what this graphics lifer thinks.


[Sorry Barry, I'm sure you would like to still be able to ask :( ]

Edited by E1pix, 07 June 2012 - 20:11.


#44 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 22:33

Thank you, gentlemen. I will take your advice and restrict myself to fine emery cloth and elbow grease.

I have tested the water, so to speak, but this picture makes the polished area of the wheel appear somewhat less dull than it really is.

Posted Image

Barry, gently with 240 and then 320 DRY rub paper. A sisal polishing mop on a bench grinder with the appropriate cutting agent then hand finish with Solvol Autosol will have it look good again. It probably will still have some pitting though, it is near impossible to reverse 40 years of deteriotian.
That is why those wheels have and had a short life, the magnesium absorbs water and really buggers the material.
Yes I do think it should be sympathetically be restored, and once you do it will kep you busy polishing it regularly. A nice talking piece however and a coffee table is always good!

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 07 June 2012 - 22:34.


#45 Giraffe

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:22

Hello Barry, it's in my copy of "life at the Limit" facing page 145, credited to David Phipps.

Richard


For the record....

Posted Image
By giraffe138 at 2012-06-08

#46 Cargo

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:44

thanx giraffe.been following this thread and knew i'd seen this photo somewhere, but couldn't find it in any of my Lotus books.. Good.

:up:

For the record....

Posted Image
By giraffe138 at 2012-06-08



#47 Barry Boor

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:46

Yes, that's the one. In a bigger version the short spoke next to the valve can be seen clearly.

#48 kayemod

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 10:14

For the record....

Posted Image
By giraffe138 at 2012-06-08


That's partly solved the small mystery of who took 'my' earlier lost wheel pic, we just need to find out which photographer was standing about 50 feet to the left of David Phipps.

Slightly surprised that no-one has mentioned that this wasn't an isolated incident for Graham with a Lotus 48, his car shed a rear wheel in an almost identical manner at an F2 race at Monza, later in the same year. Much has been made of alleged Lotus fragility in their earlier years, but I don't remember Graham Hill commenting on it much. I imagine that the fact he didn't suffer injury through wheels leaving any of his cars would have made him a bit more tolerant than others like Sir Stirling, who weren't so lucky.


#49 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 01:38

That's partly solved the small mystery of who took 'my' earlier lost wheel pic, we just need to find out which photographer was standing about 50 feet to the left of David Phipps.

Slightly surprised that no-one has mentioned that this wasn't an isolated incident for Graham with a Lotus 48, his car shed a rear wheel in an almost identical manner at an F2 race at Monza, later in the same year. Much has been made of alleged Lotus fragility in their earlier years, but I don't remember Graham Hill commenting on it much. I imagine that the fact he didn't suffer injury through wheels leaving any of his cars would have made him a bit more tolerant than others like Sir Stirling, who weren't so lucky.

I suspect these wheel failures were more down to the wheel manufacturer than Lotus in this case. I feel manufacturers were learning on the go as tyres got more and more grip.
I seldom happens these days unless the wheel is way past its expected life.

#50 Barry Boor

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 05:54

I'm not a metallurgist but I think I can see a flaw in one of the spokes of my wheel, which may be what failed and caused the wheel to break off.

If I'm right, this particular failure can't be put down to Lotus.