Jump to content


Photo

"Back to the usual balance of power" - Helmut Marko


  • Please log in to reply
71 replies to this topic

#1 Juggles

Juggles
  • Member

  • 896 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 09 June 2012 - 02:40

I normally shut off as soon as Helmut Marko starts talking but found the recent interview with him on F1.com quite interesting.

Excerpt

Q: How do you see the season developing?
HM: I believe that Monaco already has shown a more realistic picture of the pecking order in the paddock and if you take today’s two sessions there is a clear indication that ‘surprise winners’ are very likely a thing of the past.

Q: What do you make of the fact that we’ve had six races and six different winners?
HM: That due to the new tyres the reaction time of the teams to cope with them differed significantly - and that the characteristics of the cars supported that. There is a fine line to optimize the tyres and some teams have understood that fine line better than others. But I would say that right now there is a much broader understanding, so we see the strong teams making it to the front again.

Q: Red Bull boss Dietrich Mateschitz said in Barcelona that he is no fan of a tyre lottery. Is that a game you are reluctant to play?
HM: That was Barcelona - light years from now. Meanwhile we understand the game and let’s wait for the next two races. Then we will be able to say if like the game.

Q: At the moment it seems everybody can win. So why is it so difficult to win effectively?
HM: At the first couple of races, if you were able to get the tyres to temperature it didn’t matter what car you were in - tyres temperature meant everything, the car nothing. That is now a thing of the past, as all teams do understand the tyres now and that means that we go back to the ‘usual’ balance of power.

Full interview: Helmut Marko on 2012


His tone throughout the interview is bullish so he may be exaggerating. However, to say that "all teams do understand the tyres now" is a strong statement and not necessarily backed up by some anomalous results in the last couple of races.

Do you think he is right? Will the big four teams monopolise the podium positions from now on? Do the tyres have any more surprises in store?

Edited by Juggles, 09 June 2012 - 02:41.


Advertisement

#2 Rybo

Rybo
  • Member

  • 346 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 09 June 2012 - 03:51

I normally shut off as soon as Helmut Marko starts talking but found the recent interview with him on F1.com quite interesting.

Excerpt



His tone throughout the interview is bullish so he may be exaggerating. However, to say that "all teams do understand the tyres now" is a strong statement and not necessarily backed up by some anomalous results in the last couple of races.

Do you think he is right? Will the big four teams monopolise the podium positions from now on? Do the tyres have any more surprises in store?


Its only a matter of time before the big boys continue the development race and leave the midfield behind.

#3 AMG FAN

AMG FAN
  • Member

  • 890 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 09 June 2012 - 04:07

he is right,it's good that we have the field so close but i think it's only a matter of time,i don't know if the balance of power has been restored yet though.

#4 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,461 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 09 June 2012 - 04:47

I think that Mclaren have shown that in the right hands, their car is the best. Its been the most consistently fast car this season. There's an element of upredictability but look at who is leading the driver and constructor championships. Still the big names. Its easy for Marko to say that the balance has been restored, but I think that even with teams understanding the tires a bit better(I dont think it'll improve that much), there's still going to be a lot of surprise performers. Everything is still up for grabs.

#5 BigCHrome

BigCHrome
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 09 June 2012 - 05:29

I think Williams and Sauber will still be able to get good results, occasionally.

#6 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:10

Lotus is the only one I'm not sure about, otherwise I don't see the others getting among the big teams any more. Williams must be having flashbacks to their Boutsen/Patrese days when they had a good car with nobody to drive it properly.

Can Mercedes develop in-season, finally, is the other big question in my mind.

#7 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 7,469 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:13

I think that Mclaren have shown that in the right hands, their car is the best. Its been the most consistently fast car this season. There's an element of upredictability but look at who is leading the driver and constructor championships. Still the big names. Its easy for Marko to say that the balance has been restored, but I think that even with teams understanding the tires a bit better(I dont think it'll improve that much), there's still going to be a lot of surprise performers. Everything is still up for grabs.


Must be why Alonso is leading the WDC (followed by Vettel & Webber) ...... Oh, I forgot, he doesn't drive for McLaren any more.

#8 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:16

Lotus is the only one I'm not sure about, otherwise I don't see the others getting among the big teams any more. Williams must be having flashbacks to their Boutsen/Patrese days when they had a good car with nobody to drive it properly.

Can Mercedes develop in-season, finally, is the other big question in my mind.

They don't have problems with development. They just started last 2 years with fundamentally wrong cars. And then you couldn't change that. They have to live with it. Now they can change everything, test crash it.


#9 Alarcon

Alarcon
  • Member

  • 2,468 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:22

Must be why Alonso is leading the WDC (followed by Vettel & Webber) ...... Oh, I forgot, he doesn't drive for McLaren any more.



McLaren achieved 3 pole positions and his car has been fast in every races (however Ferrari, RB... didn´t).

And everybody knows the reason McLaren is not at the top WCC is because the team made a lot of mistakes (pits, strategies, penalties...) and some Button driving mistakes.

Edited by Alarcon, 09 June 2012 - 08:23.


#10 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:28

They don't have problems with development. They just started last 2 years with fundamentally wrong cars. And then you couldn't change that. They have to live with it. Now they can change everything, test crash it.

Fundamentally wrong? Where does that come from? Merc have a pattern of starting the season quite well then labouring away at problems like rear tyre wear without making headway. So it's a question whether, now they have more ex-TD's than you can shake a stick at, they've got better at it. I hope so, I'm not dissing them.

#11 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:32

Fundamentally wrong? Where does that come from? Merc have a pattern of starting the season quite well then labouring away at problems like rear tyre wear without making headway. So it's a question whether, now they have more ex-TD's than you can shake a stick at, they've got better at it. I hope so, I'm not dissing them.

It came from the team. Cooling problems, short WB and else.


#12 BernieEc

BernieEc
  • Member

  • 2,131 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:51

Must be why Alonso is leading the WDC (followed by Vettel & Webber) ...... Oh, I forgot, he doesn't drive for McLaren any more.

i think you should re-read his post..........he said it with a caveat of the "unpredictability" of the tyres........ahhh forget it...

#13 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,677 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:58

Lotus is the only one I'm not sure about, otherwise I don't see the others getting among the big teams any more. Williams must be having flashbacks to their Boutsen/Patrese days when they had a good car with nobody to drive it properly.

Can Mercedes develop in-season, finally, is the other big question in my mind.



Atm, Merc is leading the development race.

#14 iotar

iotar
  • Member

  • 2,153 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:59

But I thought it was all unpredictable? What happened? Was it all marketing BS? Now even Schumacher can make predictions with Rosberg being tipped for championship win?

I can't wait for another: oh my god this is such a lottery. What a pack of lying hypocrites F1 teams are. Red Bull's pattern:
- Bahrain - win therefore silence
- Barcelona - after series of their own f.. ups - OMG it's a lottery
- Monaco - silence and "strong performance"

I wonder what kind of response we'll get from general public, my guess: beeee, beeee, beeeee and repeating whatever agenda will be pushed at that particular moment.

#15 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:18

Atm, Merc is leading the development race.

Well they have ONE innovation based on a whimsical interpretation of what isn't driver-operated. So far their car hasn't gained ground on anyone has it?. Ferrari have made most progress, followed by Red Bull I'd say.

#16 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:20

But I thought it was all unpredictable? What happened? Was it all marketing BS? Now even Schumacher can make predictions with Rosberg being tipped for championship win?

I can't wait for another: oh my god this is such a lottery. What a pack of lying hypocrites F1 teams are. Red Bull's pattern:
- Bahrain - win therefore silence
- Barcelona - after series of their own f.. ups - OMG it's a lottery
- Monaco - silence and "strong performance"

I wonder what kind of response we'll get from general public, my guess: beeee, beeee, beeeee and repeating whatever agenda will be pushed at that particular moment.

No kidding? :p It is still unpredictable. Can you tell me who will get the pole and who will win?

Edited by ivand911, 09 June 2012 - 09:21.


#17 iotar

iotar
  • Member

  • 2,153 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:22

It's funny how just because Webber won and Vettel after being slow in qualifying got lucky with a strategy (tyres/weather/!!!LOTTERY!!) Monaco is now a reference track. So McLaren are third fastest team in qualifying now? Realistic order my bottom.

"Barcelona is light years away"? This is simply infuriating: Horner and Vettel were tipping Caterham and Marussia for MONACO NOT BARCELONA win. Guess what? If it could have been HRT winning Red Bull's win is worthless and only thanks to lottery. Oh, no - as predicted: they always win on merit, only losses are random.

Are there limits for being a liar in F1 (rhetorical)?

#18 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:23

It came from the team. Cooling problems, short WB and else.

Oh, direct from the team's excuses portfolio? lol. The usual balance of power is that Merc start the season looking quite promising then fall back into the clutches of Renault. So let's see if it's going to be different this year.

#19 iotar

iotar
  • Member

  • 2,153 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:24

No kidding? :p It is still unpredictable. Can you tell me who will get the pole and who will win?

No kidding youself. I can tell you where Hamilton qualified:
1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 4



Advertisement

#20 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:32

Oh, direct from the team's excuses portfolio? lol. The usual balance of power is that Merc start the season looking quite promising then fall back into the clutches of Renault. So let's see if it's going to be different this year.

How the facts are excuses? They need half of the season to resolve cooling problems last year. Gills, double radiators. In the same time they have short WB ,both seasons, this killing the tyres. Car was not easy to balance.

Edited by ivand911, 09 June 2012 - 09:34.


#21 iotar

iotar
  • Member

  • 2,153 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:43

No kidding? :p It is still unpredictable. Can you tell me who will get the pole and who will win?

On the topic of predictability, I can't find it right now, but I remember poll here after Spa in 2010. The question was who will be a world champion. Hamilton won it (over 30%(?)), Vettel was very low (under 10%(?)). [Leaving aside how worthless these polls are let's treat it as a reflection of general public's perception]

Remember that it was the final season of super predictable and durable Bridgestone tyres and complete dominance of one team - Red Bull.

#22 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,677 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:44

Well they have ONE innovation based on a whimsical interpretation of what isn't driver-operated. So far their car hasn't gained ground on anyone has it?. Ferrari have made most progress, followed by Red Bull I'd say.


You said in-season development. Now you switch to design. I said Merc is leading the development race atm.

#23 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:47

How the facts are excuses? They need half of the season to resolve cooling problems last year. Gills, double radiators. In the same time they have short WB ,both seasons, this killing the tyres. Car was not easy to balance.

Yes OK but would RBR, Ferrari and Mac have struggled like that? I don't think so. Even in 2009 as Brawn they lost ground during the season. They lost a shedload of talent when they downsized from Honda, since obviously the most talented people find it easiest to move to other teams. So it's a question whether they've recovered from that brain drain, which Ross has obviously been working to do. Not to mention that Honda weren't the most effective team in the first place.

#24 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:49

You said in-season development. Now you switch to design. I said Merc is leading the development race atm.

Well that was the only thing I could think of. What are you thinking of, that shows them developing faster than the others?

#25 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,677 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:50

Yes OK but would RBR, Ferrari and Mac have struggled like that? I don't think so. Even in 2009 as Brawn they lost ground during the season. They lost a shedload of talent when they downsized from Honda, since obviously the most talented people find it easiest to move to other teams. So it's a question whether they've recovered from that brain drain, which Ross has obviously been working to do. Not to mention that Honda weren't the most effective team in the first place.


LOL, that's an understatement. They were the most ineffective by far, if you consider the resources they had, they could be considered a joke.


#26 BullHead

BullHead
  • Member

  • 6,714 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:54

Well in yesterday's press conference Jonathan Neale pretty much said the opposite to Marko. That proper understanding was some way off and he couldn't see a time when everyone gets it.

#27 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,677 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:04

Well that was the only thing I could think of. What are you thinking of, that shows them developing faster than the others?


Apart from Ferrari, for the obvious reasons of course, Merc has the most developments to date. New gearbox, re-designed back-end, re-designed suspension, refined side-pods, new nose, crash tests to go with all of this, and it seem to work too. I would say that given the time-frame they had to achieve this, they are amongst the more effective teams in the development race. Last year was really unfortunate, with the design flaws they had, they had to concentrate on maximizing what they had on hand, this year, they had said early they have a good platform to develop from, and so far they lived up to that.

#28 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:07

What a puff of hot air! One Monaco race and the order is restored? Even an F1 novice would know better than that.

#29 Raziel

Raziel
  • Member

  • 2,082 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:09

He wants to say that with Webber's win Red Bull is again No.1 team in F1 and everything in its right place!

He is just an old man seeking for attention. He thinks that he's some key figure, an important part of Red Bull and F1 world but he's not, he is just the errand boy of Dietrich Mateschitz. I can't even believe that f1.com did an Q&A with him! :drunk:

#30 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:19

Apart from Ferrari, for the obvious reasons of course, Merc has the most developments to date. New gearbox, re-designed back-end, re-designed suspension, refined side-pods, new nose, crash tests to go with all of this, and it seem to work too. I would say that given the time-frame they had to achieve this, they are amongst the more effective teams in the development race. Last year was really unfortunate, with the design flaws they had, they had to concentrate on maximizing what they had on hand, this year, they had said early they have a good platform to develop from, and so far they lived up to that.

You're talking development from last year to this? What I was meaning is development during the season. Cos the usual balance of power is Merc dropping behind the top 3 as the season goes on, so if they can keep up this year that will be notable progress.

#31 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 7,469 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:41

McLaren achieved 3 pole positions and his car has been fast in every races (however Ferrari, RB... didn´t).

And everybody knows the reason McLaren is not at the top WCC is because the team made a lot of mistakes (pits, strategies, penalties...) and some Button driving mistakes.


In my head I win every GP I enter, consistently and reliably. If you don't win races, don't lead the WDC, but you do have pole positions, then you are by definition inconsistently fast...

#32 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,677 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:42

You're talking development from last year to this? What I was meaning is development during the season. Cos the usual balance of power is Merc dropping behind the top 3 as the season goes on, so if they can keep up this year that will be notable progress.


Huh? No. It was just a comparison to this year's development rate. As I said, so far, since the start of the season it is Merc who is leading the field. I don't think they will fall back, on the contrary. All indications are they are quite serious about it, and effective too. They have the best tools to do it, brainpower is now there, structure is there, development rate will be fierce. To put all this in the context of the thread title, what Marko basically says is that the teams who are capable of developing their car during the season as opposed to 'tweaking' what they have, will get more out of the tyres consistently, thus the top teams will restore the balance of power on the grid. As much as I hate Marko for his attitude, he is right to some extent. He doesn't necessarily mean that RB will be the team to beat from now on, but that the teams who will be in the hunt will be the usual suspects, maybe with the addition of Merc, who- you may say- is not a 'usual suspect' :). All this does not mean though that this year's tyres are not junk, IMHO.


#33 Schumacher7

Schumacher7
  • Member

  • 714 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:46

Can Mercedes develop in-season, finally, is the other big question in my mind.

Well their updates seemed to work in Monaco.

Also the gap remained pretty constant last year between Merc and the Redbull throughout the season, there was a thread here a while back that showed all the average qualifying time difference for the teams at each race last season. They didn't drop back but they didn't make any gains either, which should be easier to make if you have a slower car to start with.

You're talking development from last year to this? What I was meaning is development during the season. Cos the usual balance of power is Merc dropping behind the top 3 as the season goes on, so if they can keep up this year that will be notable progress.

All those things he mentioned are what Mercedes have brought over the course of the season so far.

#34 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 13,895 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 11:00

It's possible that the tyres may be figured out and many cars still very close together in speed. This year has by far the most restrictive set of design rules Formula One's ever seen.

#35 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 11:02

Huh? No. It was just a comparison to this year's development rate. As I said, so far, since the start of the season it is Merc who is leading the field. I don't think they will fall back, on the contrary. All indications are they are quite serious about it, and effective too. They have the best tools to do it, brainpower is now there, structure is there, development rate will be fierce. To put all this in the context of the thread title, what Marko basically says is that the teams who are capable of developing their car during the season as opposed to 'tweaking' what they have, will get more out of the tyres consistently, thus the top teams will restore the balance of power on the grid. As much as I hate Marko for his attitude, he is right to some extent. He doesn't necessarily mean that RB will be the team to beat from now on, but that the teams who will be in the hunt will be the usual suspects, maybe with the addition of Merc, who- you may say- is not a 'usual suspect' :). All this does not mean though that this year's tyres are not junk, IMHO.



Well their updates seemed to work in Monaco.

Also the gap remained pretty constant last year between Merc and the Redbull throughout the season, there was a thread here a while back that showed all the average qualifying time difference for the teams at each race last season. They didn't drop back but they didn't make any gains either, which should be easier to make if you have a slower car to start with.

All those things he mentioned are what Mercedes have brought over the course of the season so far.


Oh OK, I don't follow the team super closely tbh, tho surely they didn't decide after Oz they needed a new gearbox and boingggg in Monaco there it is? That stuff must have been in the pipeline over the winter, otherwise I AM impressed!! And race pace was their issue last year wasn't it rather than Q. Anyway if they're making progress that's totally fine by me, good luck to them, the more teams in contention for wins the more fun it is IMO :).


#36 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,653 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 09 June 2012 - 11:08

Can Mercedes develop in-season, finally, is the other big question in my mind.

Strange question to ask. We are at the 7th race of the season with factual evidence of a large number of significant updates. Updates that apparently work.
Rosberg has finished ahead of e.g. both McLarens for 4 races in a row, in a W03.
You know that nothing in F1 is static. Circumstances change. There were clear reasons why things were not working for them last year or the year before.


#37 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 11:21

Strange question to ask. We are at the 7th race of the season with factual evidence of a large number of significant updates. Updates that apparently work.
Rosberg has finished ahead of e.g. both McLarens for 4 races in a row, in a W03.
You know that nothing in F1 is static. Circumstances change. There were clear reasons why things were not working for them last year or the year before.

As you point out we've done 6 races (no we haven't done the 7th yet...), less than a third of the season, one of them Monaco, and you're saying there is no question about Merc's in-season development?

If they'd fallen back already there wouldn't be a question, would there? If they'd kept up last year or the year before there wouldn't be a question. So I'm watching with interest. I'm not saying: "Merc can't develop in 2012".

#38 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,653 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 09 June 2012 - 11:26

As you point out we've done 6 races (no we haven't done the 7th yet...), less than a third of the season, one of them Monaco, and you're saying there is no question about Merc's in-season development?

If they'd fallen back already there wouldn't be a question, would there? If they'd kept up last year or the year before there wouldn't be a question. So I'm watching with interest. I'm not saying: "Merc can't develop in 2012".

It comes down to having a car with a good starting point and no fundamental flaws that make development difficult.
This year the car has a sound basis (unlike 2010 and 2011), which makes it easier to develop.

#39 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 11:32

It comes down to having a car with a good starting point and no fundamental flaws that make development difficult.
This year the car has a sound basis (unlike 2010 and 2011), which makes it easier to develop.

Alright, well if they DO keep up this year I'll buy that as part of the reason. IMO if they do it'll be part of a general improvement in their engineering.

Advertisement

#40 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 4,882 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 09 June 2012 - 12:09

I normally shut off as soon as Helmut Marko starts talking but found the recent interview with him on F1.com quite interesting.

Excerpt



His tone throughout the interview is bullish so he may be exaggerating. However, to say that "all teams do understand the tyres now" is a strong statement and not necessarily backed up by some anomalous results in the last couple of races.

Do you think he is right? Will the big four teams monopolise the podium positions from now on? Do the tyres have any more surprises in store?


Helmut Marko is an idiot. The gaps in Monaco were minute. The top nine qualified within less than a second of each other. The top six in the race were within six seconds of each other at race end. It has never been closer among the top teams themselves. Monaco was very peculiar track and often the picture changes from Moonaco to another GP.

Edited by Dolph, 09 June 2012 - 12:11.


#41 LotusEClan

LotusEClan
  • New Member

  • 1 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 09 June 2012 - 12:59

There may be another factor?

Pirelli have had so much stick from drivers, teams, pundits and fans I wouldn't be surprised at all if they have sneakily tweaked the tyre compounds to give less degradation. The teams may believe their updates are beginning to work but some seem to be surprised with the sudden increase in the number of laps they can do and the cliff is now a slope.

IIRC the TEAMS don't retain tyres from race to race to enable a proper assessment of tyre behavior at each venue against new developments? They have to trust Pirelli to do inter-batch (inter-race) QC (not to be confused with intra-batch QC - ie tyres same for everyone at a given venue). Well given the criticism, Pirelli now have a vested interest to shift any negative focus away from tyres. :well:

Edited by LotusEClan, 09 June 2012 - 13:00.


#42 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,282 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 09 June 2012 - 13:21

There may be another factor?

Pirelli have had so much stick from drivers, teams, pundits and fans I wouldn't be surprised at all if they have sneakily tweaked the tyre compounds to give less degradation. The teams may believe their updates are beginning to work but some seem to be surprised with the sudden increase in the number of laps they can do and the cliff is now a slope.

IIRC the TEAMS don't retain tyres from race to race to enable a proper assessment of tyre behavior at each venue against new developments? They have to trust Pirelli to do inter-batch (inter-race) QC (not to be confused with intra-batch QC - ie tyres same for everyone at a given venue). Well given the criticism, Pirelli now have a vested interest to shift any negative focus away from tyres. :well:

+ 1

This was my suspicion after Monaco ... but after seeing very low deg in practice in Canada of all places - teams are talking about 1 stopping - this is now confirmed in my mind.

I am sure the teams have done the best they can but the easiest way to get less deg is from the tyre supplier.

Look for deg to become a bigger issue towards the end of the season if the "show" requires it....


Edit: welcome to the forum... its always nice to see someone can think independently.

Edited by jjcale, 09 June 2012 - 13:22.


#43 Kelateboy

Kelateboy
  • Member

  • 5,792 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 09 June 2012 - 13:24

In my head I win every GP I enter, consistently and reliably. If you don't win races, don't lead the WDC, but you do have pole positions, then you are by definition inconsistently fast...

I would say McLaren are consistently inconsistent on race day.....

#44 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 6,845 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 09 June 2012 - 13:34

+ 1

This was my suspicion after Monaco ... but after seeing very low deg in practice in Canada of all places - teams are talking about 1 stopping - this is now confirmed in my mind.

I am sure the teams have done the best they can but the easiest way to get less deg is from the tyre supplier.

Look for deg to become a bigger issue towards the end of the season if the "show" requires it....


Edit: welcome to the forum... its always nice to see someone can think independently.


The tyres were similarly good in Monaco last year, also in Canada last year during the free practices all drivers spoke about how surprised they were by how well the tyres were holding up, in comparison to 2010 and the bridgestones. We got a glimpse of this at the end of the 2011 race where even on a green track once the drivers had pitted for slicks (the supersofts) they didn't pit again and were setting personal bests and fastest laps at the very end of the race.

Edited by Kvothe, 09 June 2012 - 13:34.


#45 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 09 June 2012 - 13:38

There may be another factor?

Pirelli have had so much stick from drivers, teams, pundits and fans I wouldn't be surprised at all if they have sneakily tweaked the tyre compounds to give less degradation. The teams may believe their updates are beginning to work but some seem to be surprised with the sudden increase in the number of laps they can do and the cliff is now a slope.

IIRC the TEAMS don't retain tyres from race to race to enable a proper assessment of tyre behavior at each venue against new developments? They have to trust Pirelli to do inter-batch (inter-race) QC (not to be confused with intra-batch QC - ie tyres same for everyone at a given venue). Well given the criticism, Pirelli now have a vested interest to shift any negative focus away from tyres. :well:

I also agree with this. Canada of all places makes the tyres last so long?

#46 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 6,845 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 09 June 2012 - 13:42

I also agree with this. Canada of all places makes the tyres last so long?


Don't confuse the properties of the Bridgestone tyres with the properties of the Pirelli tyres, and how the two different types of tyre react and bond with the track surface of the Montreal circuit.

There is no conspiracy, Pirelli clearly expected this which is why the brought the supersoft and soft which incidentally are the same compounds they brought last year (before there were any realistic complaints about the Pirellis).

#47 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,282 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 09 June 2012 - 13:45

The tyres were similarly good in Monaco last year, also in Canada last year during the free practices all drivers spoke about how surprised they were by how well the tyres were holding up, in comparison to 2010 and the bridgestones. We got a glimpse of this at the end of the 2011 race where even on a green track once the drivers had pitted for slicks (the supersofts) they didn't pit again and were setting personal bests and fastest laps at the very end of the race.


K didnt remember that.

Still surprised how well they are holding up in Canada... has this track stopped being abrasive?... was it resurfaced in the past few years??

Sorry to go completely off memory but I prefer to post that way... and it works well most of the time.

I still dont trust Pirelli ... and Bernie.

#48 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 5,362 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 09 June 2012 - 13:49

Helmut Marko IS an idiot. And..

There COULD be some more mixed results from "surprise" teams this season.

However you would expect with every race that goes on, the chance becomes less and less. And it's unlikely to be the same team twice..

I've always thought since Malaysia you won't see Perez near the front again, and I've always thought since Spain you won't see Maldonado near the front again. Perhaps there could be someone else near the front, from a different team but to be one of those two drivers would be far too consistant and predictable. :p This needs to happen for their results to have "true merit" IMO, and I've expected for the rest of the season.. it won't happen. Will happily admit if wrong. Would also explain Maldonado's aggression and incidents during the Monaco weekend.. a realisation of that fact, after all the BS he and Williams spouted after Spain about "progress".

As the season goes on, the unpredictability will be more about the top teams themselves, Alonso, McLaren's, Redbull's and maybe Lotus.

Every qualifying is DEFINATELY unpredictable this season.. race pace less so but given the track position of the cars (sometimes jumbled up) it still makes for very interesting races.. unpredictability wise.

edit.. forgot about Merc.. them too.

Edited by HoldenRT, 09 June 2012 - 13:51.


#49 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 6,845 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 09 June 2012 - 13:51

K didnt remember that.

Still surprised how well they are holding up in Canada... has this track stopped being abrasive?... was it resurfaced in the past few years??

Sorry to go completely off memory but I prefer to post that way... and it works well most of the time.

I still dont trust Pirelli ... and Bernie.


Neither do I, and while I keep my eyes open, I don't think there can be said to be a conspiracy in regards to the tyres....yet!

Fair enough, I tend to post off memory as well, and I think in comparison to the Bridgestone tyres, the Pirelli tyres bond and react differently with the track surface. I think Dunder (where ever he is) could explain it in much better detail then I ever could.

Edited by Kvothe, 09 June 2012 - 13:51.


#50 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,653 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 09 June 2012 - 13:51

K didnt remember that.

Still surprised how well they are holding up in Canada... has this track stopped being abrasive?... was it resurfaced in the past few years??

Sorry to go completely off memory but I prefer to post that way... and it works well most of the time.

I still dont trust Pirelli ... and Bernie.

Canada has low lateral loads. An often overlooked but big factor attributing to tyre degradation.