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Off-throttle diffuser blowing is back [split]


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#1 Kvothe

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:04

https://twitter.com/.../F1Photographer https://twitter.com/...834465301954561

Darren Heath ‏@F1Photographer Chat with #f1mclaren Sam Michael.Confirmed that most teams are off-throttle blowing. #fia approved post pre'12 testing. #f1montreal

Darren Heath ‏@F1Photographer

@JordanSDeanF1 Allowed but not to level of #f1 '11 & not directly to diffuser.Once again #redbull seemingly doing the best job.



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#2 Alx09

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:11

Sigh. Can't they write a rule which clearly prohibits all types of off-throttle blowing?

If they want to ban it, they shouldn't half-ban it.

Edited by Alx09, 10 June 2012 - 15:36.


#3 tarmac

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:14

blow me

#4 HPT

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:15

Sigh. Can't they write a rule which clearly prohibits all types of off-throttle blowing? Is it that hard?


Exactly. It's so frustrating how they constantly write rules which leave plenty of gray area. Tell them no off-throttle blowing and you can't circumvent the rules by cleverly interpreting them or something. Geez.

#5 korzeniow

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:16

Sigh. Can't they write a rule which clearly prohibits all types of off-throttle blowing? Is it that hard?


what's your business in banning the solution?

#6 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:16

They've been blowing off throttle all year, hasn't done too much for them. Other teams are allowed to as well. Most of it is to help engine reliability and isn't approaching 2011 levels.

Edited by D.M.N., 10 June 2012 - 15:25.
remove deleted quote


#7 Markn93

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:16

https://twitter.com/.../F1Photographer https://twitter.com/...834465301954561



What does most teams mean? Just those with Renault engines?

#8 aray

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:16

anything to give RB a helping hand...:up: to FIA..

#9 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:16

Arrrrrgh I'm getting so frustrated with these loopholes!

If I get my grades and do my law degree, I might have to make a move into F1 legal stuff and make sure that loopholes stay closed.

#10 Zava

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:17

They've been blowing off throttle all year, hasn't done too much for them. Other teams are allowed to as well. Most of it is to help engine reliability and isn't approaching 2011 levels.

:up: thanks for talking sense.

#11 jjcale

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:17

Is this a new development (ie this weekend) or is this new confirmation of something that has been around for a while.

#12 Cavani

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:17

why the **** did FIA not ban blown exhaust altogether ?

#13 Zava

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:17

What does most teams mean? Just those with Renault engines?

if 4 of 12 teams counts as 'most', then yes. if not, then not.  ;)

#14 jjcale

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:18

Arrrrrgh I'm getting so frustrated with these loopholes!

If I get my grades and do my law degree, I might have to make a move into F1 legal stuff and make sure that loopholes stay closed.


they wont teach you this in school ... but the real skill is to write in the loophole in the first place :lol:

#15 Markn93

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:18

if 4 of 12 teams counts as 'most', then yes. if not, then not. ;)


These things always get blown out of proportion.  ;)

#16 Clatter

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:18

Sigh. Can't they write a rule which clearly prohibits all types of off-throttle blowing? Is it that hard?


No need to write any rules regarding the engine, just mandate that the exhaust pipes must exit behind the diffuser. They can then blow as much as they like, but won't gain any benefit.

#17 Zava

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:19

anything to give RB a helping hand...:up: to FIA..

sure, that's why they are allowing them the floor hole and brake duct thing... o wait they aren't.

#18 Markn93

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:19

No need to write any rules regarding the engine, just mandate that the exhaust pipes must exit behind the diffuser. They can then blow as much as they like, but won't gain any benefit.


100% agree :up:

#19 Clatter

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:21

They've been blowing off throttle all year, hasn't done too much for them. Other teams are allowed to as well. Most of it is to help engine reliability and isn't approaching 2011 levels.


I'm going to hazard a guess that if the benefit of aerodynamic blowing were removed then they will suddenly declare they don't need it for reliability.

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#20 korzeniow

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:21

No need to write any rules regarding the engine, just mandate that the exhaust pipes must exit behind the diffuser. They can then blow as much as they like, but won't gain any benefit.


Why you want to enforce something? What's your problem with cold blowing?

#21 Kvothe

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:24

What does most teams mean? Just those with Renault engines?


All those with a Merc, Renault or Ferrari engine (i.e. not Marussia or HRT).

#22 aray

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:24

sure, that's why they are allowing them the floor hole and brake duct thing... o wait they aren't.

only after protest by other teams....in both cases...
otherwise they like to play ostrich... ;)

#23 Cavani

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:25

the thing is , blown EBD clearly was the reason behind redbull dominance and vettel running away with the wdc . they said(FIA) that they will end this dominance by banning any off-throttle blowing for all the engines .

#24 Kvothe

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:26

It is ironic that it took a photographer to ask the right questions and investigate.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, where are all the journalists in F1?

#25 Clatter

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:26

Why you want to enforce something? What's your problem with cold blowing?


I don't have a problem with hot or cold blowing, but the reasons for banning it were to remove the aerodynamic benefit that was being derived. Rather than write complicated rules they need just one very simple rule regarding where the exhaust exits.

#26 mursuka80

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:27

It is ironic that it took a photographer to ask the right questions and investigate.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, where are all the journalists in F1?


Afraid to make a story, so they dont lose their paddock passes. :(

#27 D.M.N.

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:27

Please discuss constructively otherwise posts will be removed and/or thread closed.

Thank you.

#28 Gilles12

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:28

All those in favour of single spec formula say "aye"

The "nays" have it

#29 Group B

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:28

Arrrrrgh I'm getting so frustrated with these loopholes!

If I get my grades and do my law degree, I might have to make a move into F1 legal stuff and make sure that loopholes stay closed.

You really think you're that much cleverer than everyone else? The reality is designers have been expoiting loopholes forever, and will continue to do so; the governing bodies can but try to keep up and keep tweaking the regs. When you're competing with a mass of extrememly clever, creative, inventive minds there's no way you can predict/legistlate for their every move.

#30 ayali

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:28

Really don't care
If the rules allow for -limited- OT-blowing let them

:cool:

#31 Watkins74

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:29

It is ironic that it took a photographer to ask the right questions and investigate.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, where are all the journalists in F1?

Would they rather ask a tough question or would they rather have a free meal at a team's hospitality suite? Burp.  ;)

#32 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:30

What loopholes?? Are you on crack??

Off-throttle blowing can´t be banned, because every engine still produces gasses off-throttle, and these gases will go to the most benefitial point allowed. This year´s rules are perfecltly clear: they give a maximum % of gasses that can be blowed off-throttle, and give a range of positions for your exhaust pipes. It´s perfectly clear what you can do, and what you can´t. So stop the BS. Everyone is blowing inside the allowed range, some of them get more benefit, some of them less. That´s F1.

#33 Clatter

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:30

You really think you're that much cleverer than everyone else? The reality is designers have been expoiting loopholes forever, and will continue to do so; the governing bodies can but try to keep up and keep tweaking the regs. When you're competing with a mass of extrememly clever, creative, inventive minds there's no way you can predict/legistlate for their every move.


That's just an excuse for poor administration.

#34 Kvothe

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:30

Afraid to make a story, so they dont lose their paddock passes. :(


Would they rather ask a tough question or would they rather have a free meal at a team's hospitality suite? Burp. wink.gif




We should probably stop calling them journos and start referring to them as mouthpieces.

Edited by Kvothe, 10 June 2012 - 15:33.


#35 Ali_G

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:33

Hysteria is alive and well on the BB I see.

Nothing new here. Been off throttle blowing even since the ban for reliability purposes as others have said.

And who cares anyways. Its the same for all teams.

#36 Group B

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:34

That's just an excuse for poor administration.

No, it's an acceptance that Mystic Meg isn't among the FIA's technical staff. As skinnyguy said, this case isn't really a 'loophole' anyway, but the fact remains, as has been demonstrated since the sport began, that part of it's very nature will be a contest beteween rule makers and designers/engineers.

#37 mlsnoopy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:35

The problem with these is that when rules are so limited and one team can do something that another can't it gives them a huge advantage.
I just don't understand why Fia didn't write the rules so, that exhaust would be in a natural positing.
For example:
- the exhaust must exit the car at 90 relativly to the reference plane of the car.
- the exhaust must exit the car in an area of x by y
- the end of the exhaust must be 10 cm above the bodywork.
- there must be no body work in a area of x by y of the exhaust end

Simply and effective.

#38 Clatter

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:36

No, it's an acceptance that Mystic Meg isn't among the FIA's technical staff. As skinnyguy said, this case isn't really a 'loophole' anyway, but the fact remains, as has been demonstrated since the sport began, that part of it's very nature will be a contest beteween rule makers and designers/engineers.


You don't need Mystic Meg to write clear and consise rules.

#39 OldSoldier2

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:36

What is the problem with F1 and innovation? DDD in 2009 - yes Brawn ruled until the others caught up.
Exhaust blown diffusers and engine mapping. RBR took the cake.
Let the other teams adapt.

No, instead we get stupid FIA things like DRS and tires. I want to see what the designers and engineers come up with.


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#40 korzeniow

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:38

What loopholes?? Are you on crack??

Off-throttle blowing can´t be banned, because every engine still produces gasses off-throttle, and these gases will go to the most benefitial point allowed. This year´s rules are perfecltly clear: they give a maximum % of gasses that can be blowed off-throttle, and give a range of positions for your exhaust pipes. It´s perfectly clear what you can do, and what you can´t. So stop the BS. Everyone is blowing inside the allowed range, some of them get more benefit, some of them less. That´s F1.


:up:

#41 Ali_G

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:41

You don't need Mystic Meg to write clear and consise rules.


What's the problem with loopholes ?

It gives a bit of creative wiggle room to intelligent designers ? You seem to want a set of rules which would turn F1 into nothing more than a spec series.



#42 eta

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:41

Not surprised at all…

Art 5.5.3
The maximum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed.
The minimum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or lower than 0Nm.
Art 5.6.6
Except when anti-stall or idle speed control are active, ignition base offsets may only be applied above 80% throttle and 15,000rpm and for the sole purpose of reducing cylinder pressure for reliability.


According to these current rules, the exhaust blowing can still be used when off-throttle, because rule 5.6.6. says that only offsets to the “base map” are limited.
Now, if the “base-map” for injection and ignition in the area of 0% throttle is parameterized with retarded ignition in a way that the engine does not produce power (legal according to rule 5.5.3), off-throttle blowing is still possible


#43 Ali_G

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:41

What loopholes?? Are you on crack??

Off-throttle blowing can´t be banned, because every engine still produces gasses off-throttle, and these gases will go to the most benefitial point allowed. This year´s rules are perfecltly clear: they give a maximum % of gasses that can be blowed off-throttle, and give a range of positions for your exhaust pipes. It´s perfectly clear what you can do, and what you can´t. So stop the BS. Everyone is blowing inside the allowed range, some of them get more benefit, some of them less. That´s F1.


Thank you for talking some sense in a sea of hysteria.

Edited by Ali_G, 10 June 2012 - 15:42.


#44 jjcale

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:44

We should probably stop calling them journos and start referring to them as mouthpieces.


Been saying that for years .... Teams should be renamed "Departments" while we are at it.... but in fairness - I am not sure that this is new development.

#45 sharo

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:45

It is ironic that it took a photographer to ask the right questions and investigate.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, where are all the journalists in F1?

Those who are really technically minded don't see anything worth investigation.
Not the case with an amateur though.

#46 Koen

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:48

Why you want to enforce something? What's your problem with cold blowing?

Engine development is frozen and some engines are better suited to this technology than others.

#47 Clatter

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:49

What's the problem with loopholes ?

It gives a bit of creative wiggle room to intelligent designers ? You seem to want a set of rules which would turn F1 into nothing more than a spec series.


Loopholes are the result of badly written rules, and just makes the sport look stupid. There is no reason why there cannot be innovation within properly written rules.

#48 sharo

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:50

Loopholes are the result of badly written rules, and just makes the sport look stupid. There is no reason why there cannot be innovation within properly written rules.

Would you mind giving an example?

#49 King Six

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:52

Yes the easy solution would be for the FIA to just say the exhaust must exit straight out to behind the diffuser like others have said. I think the FIA intentionally made the rules rather ambiguous though as they didn't want to completely just make the cars uniform. I know they say they won't want aerodynamic exhausts but I think they are starting to worry about F1 becoming too much of a spec series if they just mandated exactly where the exhausts should be. That's my theory anyway.

Saying that, the FIA are known for writing rules in such a ridiculous way that you get what's happening in F1 at the moment (exhausts, step noses etc..). I think the rule book needs to be fired into orbit, allowed re-entry, burn up in the atmosphere and then completely rewritten in a more cohesive and intelligent manner. It's the only way to be sure.

#50 Clatter

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 16:09

Would you mind giving an example?


Of what?