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Mediocre performance should be punished?


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#1 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 02:54

For mine, the qualification rounds were a disapointment. Massa 4 tenths off his team-mate, Webber nearly 6 tenths. Yet, they still got a comfy top 6 start! Midpack f1 drivers do not get such a luxury, being 6 tenths off your team-mate will lose you up to 14 places. While in NASCAR such a mediocre effort would result in a starting place some 20 to 25 positions down the order... that is the way it should be IMHO.

"Formula Predictable" was often due to unpunished errors of the big 3. Consider how Webber was still able to finish on the podium, after Vettel crashed into him and he was off the track... absurd that such a result could still be achieved. Or very slow pitstops... yet a top 5 place is still taken. Or a drive-through and podium is still taken. etc etc

Fortunately the race was much better, Alonso and to a lesser extent Vettel *#$!ed up their strategy and it was suitably punished by losing their otherwise assured podium placings. :up:

Goes to show how vital it is that the midpack is close to keep them honest. :up:

So much of this past predictably of a big two or three teams was due to them being able to stuff up and not be penalised, still raking in the WCC points when they really did not necessarily deserve them on the basis of achievement of general excellence (as opposed to more expensive supercomputer!). :)

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#2 BMW4life

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:40

For mine, the qualification rounds were a disapointment. Massa 4 tenths off his team-mate, Webber nearly 6 tenths. Yet, they still got a comfy top 6 start! Midpack f1 drivers do not get such a luxury, being 6 tenths off your team-mate will lose you up to 14 places. While in NASCAR such a mediocre effort would result in a starting place some 20 to 25 positions down the order... that is the way it should be IMHO.

"Formula Predictable" was often due to unpunished errors of the big 3. Consider how Webber was still able to finish on the podium, after Vettel crashed into him and he was off the track... absurd that such a result could still be achieved. Or very slow pitstops... yet a top 5 place is still taken. Or a drive-through and podium is still taken. etc etc

Fortunately the race was much better, Alonso and to a lesser extent Vettel *#$!ed up their strategy and it was suitably punished by losing their otherwise assured podium placings. :up:

Goes to show how vital it is that the midpack is close to keep them honest. :up:

So much of this past predictably of a big two or three teams was due to them being able to stuff up and not be penalised, still raking in the WCC points when they really did not necessarily deserve them on the basis of achievement of general excellence (as opposed to more expensive supercomputer!). :)


Uhm... I saw Jimmy Johnson win the Brickyard 400 at indy, after being 4 laps down. Yes, f-o-u-r laps down. And in Nascar, with the exception of 4 or 5 tracks, it doesn't matter one bit where you start.

#3 teejay

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:36

Nascar is engineered to be an incredibly tight sport.

F1 never has been (within reason)

#4 jee

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 05:21

In the 90's you could be well over one full second slower than your teammate and still start in second...

Edited by jee, 11 June 2012 - 05:21.


#5 slideways

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 06:06

Sure, let's go to a full spec series and destroy what little is left of the soul of the sport.

PS. LOL at you bringing up Webber vs Vettel at Turkey. 25 years from now when we're talking about Mick Schumi's 7th title jaded Aussie fans will still be massaging that into posts somehow.

#6 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 06:47

Go watch Nascar then. F1 has never been like that.

#7 GSiebert

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:41

Uhm... I saw Jimmy Johnson win the Brickyard 400 at indy, after being 4 laps down. Yes, f-o-u-r laps down. And in Nascar, with the exception of 4 or 5 tracks, it doesn't matter one bit where you start.


Thanks to the lucky dog rule.;)

#8 Peat

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:57

Erm? What?

There have been instances as recently as the late 90's where one team-mate has out qualified the other by over a second and they 1st and 2nd on the grid.

Get over it.

#9 froggy22

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:11

In the 90's you could be well over one full second slower than your teammate and still start in second...

yep. Beat me to it. I lost count of the times Eddie Irvine was a second off Schumi yet started the race in about 4th place

EDIT: to OP, plus we've already seen how many times this season the likes of Massa, webber and Button get caught out by how tight the midfield is. If anything the midfield is closer to the front that it has ever been, with the exception of 2009 maybe

Edited by froggy22, 11 June 2012 - 08:13.


#10 velgajski1

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:19

I think F1 is in good place now, its not a spec series and yet it still punishes mistakes (just look at number of points slow pitstops have cost Hamilton this season).

#11 goldenboy

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:26

strange thread. You don't even offer a different way or solution? just say they should be punished???

#12 pingu666

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:28

stock cars look spec, but there is the old saying... theres nothing stock on a stock car

amusingly f1 is the reverse of stock car, one looks identical with different internals, and one looks different with near spec internals :). even race to race the car might be quite different.


#13 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 10:22

strange thread. You don't even offer a different way or solution? just say they should be punished???

It's right there should be a consequence when top-tier team/driver underperforms...

In the sense that some fans have been demanding predictability and criticising the "Pirelli lottery". When in fact, in many of the races this season, the "top tier" drivers and teams stuffed their own races up... be it slow pitstop, attracting a qually penalty, or whatever.

I'm suggesting it is no lottery at all... instead it is just that the "top tier" teams were not 'penalised' enough for their screw ups traditionally hence they continually raked in the wcc points, creating that predictability (even when Irvine was drastically slower than Schumacher!) I.e., they were so far in front of the lower orders teams it didn't matter when they screwed up... therefore the illusion of a "big three teams, top six lockout" was created and some fans seem to be missing this and disappointed with the seemingly random and hard to predict results now, when really it was just the big three getting away with stuffing up previously, and it has been their own screw ups on display for the most part this season.


#14 spacekid

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:47

I still don't get it. The driver and car are a package, they qualify where they qualify.

Who punishes the performance, and who decides what performances get punished?

This also doesn't take into account things such as set up for high fuel load vs. set up for quali, although I concede that doesn't appear to be so much of a factor at the moment.

There is also an element of endurance in F1 now, if drivers are out of synch maybe they aren't turning the wick up on their engines so much, some drivers are not going all out for quali positions to make strategy for the race work.... lots of factors...

Sorry, I don't get it.

#15 Brandz07

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:37

It's a weird thread to start now considering we're getting the top 10 covered by a second at most races, and it's closer than ever.

Edited by Brandz07, 11 June 2012 - 13:37.


#16 ForzaGTR

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:48

To be fair most drivers don't have Lewis, Fernando and Seb as team mates. The 3 best drivers in F1

#17 Verderer

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:55

Mediocrity is in itself sufficient a punishment.

#18 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 14:10

It's a weird thread to start now considering we're getting the top 10 covered by a second at most races, and it's closer than ever.

Literally closer than ever, too.

The difference between getting into Q3 or not for Hulkenberg(qualified 13th) was 7 hundredths of a second. Massa, Grosjean and Di Resta scraped into Q3 by less than a tenth of a second as well. All in all, twelve hundredths seperated 7th through 13th in Q2. You talk about punishing a driver for not performing well in qualifying? Look no further at how incredibly crucial it is to be absolutely on top of your game.

Its true top teams have tended to get off easier for a bad performance since there's usually a big gap to the guys behind, but its not really the case too much anymore. Look at how tight it was between Mclaren, Ferrari and Red Bull this past race. All the drivers had to be on top of their game to fight for that race win, yet still a Lotus and a Sauber end up on the podium and not because of any lucky safety car or anything. Tires are certainly making a big impact on the different performances we've seen over the year from different teams, but one thing has remained a constant - the field is close. As much as tires matter, so has the fact that track suitability can also make a big shakeup in the order. Any variable can, really.

#19 Cavani

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 14:26

you try to blame number 2 drivers on the big 3 teams because the midfield isn't close enough to capitalize ? weird

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#20 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 14:29

NASCAR
Pole 0:50.112
2 .205
3 .285
4 .287(teammate to pole)
5 .296(teammate to pole)

F1
Pole 1:13.784
2 .303
3 .367
4 .562(teammate to pole)

#21 Jon83

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:01

Sorry, what exactly are you advocating punishment for here?

#22 Otaku

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 18:20

Go watch Argentine TC then... 45 cars (not spec series) in 2 seconds, in a 1:40 lap :p

#23 highdownforce

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 18:54

Go watch Argentine TC then... 45 cars (not spec series) in 2 seconds, in a 1:40 lap :p

They're using spec engines, right?
Pretty close anyway.

#24 BenettonB192

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 18:57

This is the strangest thread.

#25 pingu666

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 19:02

no i think he just means its very competative and he likes that. being abit off means you really drop alot of places, but also if you get it right you can gain alot of places


#26 mymemoryfails

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 02:09

NASCAR
Pole 0:50.112
2 .205
3 .285
4 .287(teammate to pole)
5 .296(teammate to pole)

F1
Pole 1:13.784
2 .303
3 .367
4 .562(teammate to pole)



Is this supposed to celebrate that NASCAR is Closer? Doesn't do it for me.

Firstly Nascar absolutely no traffic in qualifying run.
Second Look how short lap is Nascar lap is only 2/3 of f1 lap
Third Nascar is 95 % flat out lap - there shouldn't be much variation in top speed - dont have to deal with hairpin, slow corner etc.


Overall I don't really think 3 tenths to teamate in nascar is any better performance than .56 50 teamate in f1 montreal.
As to Nascar overall, you have to say 40 or 50 cars had a chance to match pole time, so on the facts above . I would argue that the Nascar guys are actually more spread out !

mymemoryfails

#27 pingu666

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 03:34

at non impound races they run qualy setups and parts, and with only a single run its abit hit and miss. check how taped up the nose is :)

, driving wise its really fast at some tracks, kinda like turn 8, pouhon etc

I guess you could argue either way but i think that single 2 lap run is the biggest difference, in f1 you can do some minor tweaking between runs, in nascar you got what you got, making it easier/more likely to be off the pace

#28 BigCHrome

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 04:01

at non impound races they run qualy setups and parts, and with only a single run its abit hit and miss. check how taped up the nose is :)

, driving wise its really fast at some tracks, kinda like turn 8, pouhon etc

I guess you could argue either way but i think that single 2 lap run is the biggest difference, in f1 you can do some minor tweaking between runs, in nascar you got what you got, making it easier/more likely to be off the pace


Oh please, anyone can go that fast on such a wide corner with a banking. Turn 8/Pouhon is a much bigger challenge.

Edited by BigCHrome, 12 June 2012 - 04:05.


#29 pingu666

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 04:24

the transitions make it harder tbh, at charlotte on the exits, specialy 4, the track just falls away. and the corner is lined by a wall, unlike pouhon.

plus a f1 car is gonna handle alot better than some stock car



#30 Meanbeakin

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 04:27

Didn't Senna used to routinely outqualify Prost by 1-2 seconds? Ya know, the Prost who beat Senna in overall points both years they were teammates?

And Vettel has been outqualified 4 times this year by the guy he outqualified by 0.6 of second, should Vettel be punished for this?

Seriously can people start thinking before they post?

#31 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:44

Overall I don't really think 3 tenths to teamate in nascar is any better performance than .56 50 teamate in f1 montreal.


That was my point

As to Nascar overall, you have to say 40 or 50 cars had a chance to match pole time, so on the facts above . I would argue that the Nascar guys are actually more spread out !


Odd logic...

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 12 June 2012 - 10:44.


#32 mymemoryfails

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:53

That was my point

...Ah Ok

Odd logic.....

Most people who know me think I'm "a little different" . But surely with a 50 car field of similar equipment there should be less variation ? I need a mathemetician to help me



#33 pingu666

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 17:12

well you get some pretty budget teams in nascar doing start n park or just trying to be in the show, but theres probably 20-30 cars on average which are really good