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Honda threatens to quit MotoGP


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#1 RVF400

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:14

http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=10

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#2 Risil

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:22

Put more context and detail in OP plz.

Edited by Risil, 11 June 2012 - 12:22.


#3 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:24

I think the time has come to call their bluff, you could lay most of the blame for the current situation in MotoGP squarely at the door of HRC, they have wielded too much power for too long.

#4 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:25

Put more context and detail in OP plz.

If Dorna don't put off the technical changes due in 2015 HRC will quit

#5 hotstickyslick

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:30

MotoGP is on its way to ruin anyway because of the current state of the racing and the global economic situation, so Dorna might as well stick to their guns and push for the rules, they have nothing to lose at this point.

#6 Atreiu

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:33

They don't want to completely redesign stuff every other year, by the looks of it. And the definitely don't want an all CRT MotoGP.

#7 Risil

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:36

I thought Honda HQ were threatening to quit if the 2015 rule changes were brought forward. Which is fine in a way, the amount of technical change Grand Prix racing's had put through it lately has been crazy, and IMHO inimical to fair competition. Of course Honda and the gang started the merry-go-round at some point in 2005 by pushing to switch to 800cc four-cylinder engines, which in strategic insanity terms is probably only beaten by Group C sportscar racing going over to 3.5l V8s in 1991.

But as things stand we're only one Japanese pull-out away from Agostini-style whole season dominations from a single manufacturer. And neither Dorna nor the FIM should accept that, especially not having castrated the lightweight and junior classes, and especially not with a Rome-based world championship alternative spoiling for a fight. Troubled waters ahead. Now is no time to embark on new technical programmes so any defections or strategic withdrawals will be purely destructive for all motorcycle racing.

#8 ArnageWRC

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:49

I think the time has come to call their bluff, you could lay most of the blame for the current situation in MotoGP squarely at the door of HRC, they have wielded too much power for too long.



That was my thought when reading it. They nearly always get their way - time to get tough. Manufacturers in all Motorsport are important, BUT they seem to think it's their plaything. Thanks for your efforts, now Bugger off!!

#9 Disgrace

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:51

I think the time has come to call their bluff, you could lay most of the blame for the current situation in MotoGP squarely at the door of HRC, they have wielded too much power for too long.


:up:

Perhaps then they'd put some real effort into their WSBK "effort."

#10 Rob

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 16:09

They need to allow the use of parts that are derived from production parts for everyone, not just the claiming rule teams. It shouldn't matter where a part has come from as long as it meets the technical regs. If a bike meets the regs then its origin is a moot point.

Edited by Rob, 11 June 2012 - 21:45.


#11 NoDivergence

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 16:18

Moto GP have low you have come. If you want a production based motorcycling series, go watch WSBK. Moto GP was designed to be a prototype series. If HRC goes, it's over for Moto GP.

#12 Risil

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 16:30

What if someone told you that in motorcycle racing that the distinction between "production" and "prototype" is historically quite a recent one, and is entirely artificial?

#13 muramasa

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 16:38


Honda have a point, but dont use "quit" card. Hopefully they'll sit down and talk.


#14 Rob

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 22:02

Moto GP have low you have come. If you want a production based motorcycling series, go watch WSBK. Moto GP was designed to be a prototype series. If HRC goes, it's over for Moto GP.


Honda have quit before and the series has survived. If they quit again the series will survive.

The word prototype is meaningless. Historically this distinction never existed.

#15 pingu666

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 04:08

ive been to a couple of road race events, and some riders did have a near stock bike apart from saftey things

#16 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 04:58

There would be nothing really wrong with Yamaha winning everything is there? It would just like Audi at Le Mans a while back.

The privateers (CRTs?) that come in to fill the void may be a very welcome addition in terms of variety and excitement, like the privateer lmp1 / lmp2 racers. Who cares if some of them are a bit slow, they are having a go. :up:

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 12 June 2012 - 04:59.


#17 Nova

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 05:00

To me it seems like motoGP goes the way of Indy/IRL and F1, that is irrelevant for me but probably more attractive to a wide audience. I follow the manufacturer more than the rider, and a spec series with little innovation make for a dull series, even if the racing is tight.

Many are raving about the racing in Moto2, but for me the series is of little interests as everyone is racing the same engine.

Basically if Honda pulls out of motoGP I would stop watching, not that I think Dorna should worry about that.

#18 Jambo

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:25

Honda got to this position by supporting the class when it struggled to be fair but quitting is not the option.

#19 RVF400

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:30


If you want a production based motorcycling series, go watch WSBK. +1
Moto GP was designed to be a prototype series. +1

The word prototype is meaningless. Not according to Webster's

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#20 Bloggsworth

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 13:46

That was my thought when reading it. They nearly always get their way - time to get tough. Manufacturers in all Motorsport are important, BUT they seem to think it's their plaything. Thanks for your efforts, now Bugger off!!



They are the ones spending the money, financing the whole thing, paying the drivers, spending development money - The FIM sit on their backsides and pay themselves large salaries...

#21 Risil

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:18

If you want a production based motorcycling series, go watch WSBK. +1
Moto GP was designed to be a prototype series. +1


MotoGP was designed to be a prototype series to distinguish it from the four-stroke elephant in the room, World Superbike, when it launched in 2002. Back then of course it was almost exclusively a VTR-1000 vs. 998 battle. Two bikes designed explicitly for the technical regulations rather than road considerations, real homologation specials. Ducati won its sixth race when it re-entered Grand Prix racing, so evidently the disparity in technology between the two series wasn't that great then.

There's an argument to be made that MotoGP's exclusively "prototype" status was a mere political move, so as not to be seen as overtly muscling in on a world championship factory-supported series which was providing a platform for racing four-stroke engines that Grand Prix should've moved to about ten years earlier. Of course the MSMA were fully supportive -- they'd had enough of the Flammini way of doing things and wanted full control. Dorna were supple and agreed to let them use Grand Prix racing in such a way, in doing so betting the farm that manufacturer (great and small) entries could provide bikes for the whole grid back to front, like a sort of permanent racing Expo. Worked for a while, but when the factories entered the recessive part of their cycle, the rules still forbade the sort of prototype/production/garagiste hybrids that until 2002 were raced by basically everyone further back than 12th. And worse still, they'd been tailored and adapted and hardened on the assumption that all race bikes would be run by big factory concerns. Like the fuel limits, and the 800cc capacity change -- things that made running a halfway competitive bike without great expertise and development in high-revving engines and electronic control all but impossible. Hence CRT, a regulatory abomination that rose out of the series's own strategic errors.

That's the argument, anyway, it's a bit simplified and would obviously welcome refinement. Nonetheless I hope it's more constructive than just bitching from the sidelines about a model series that only ever existed in one's head.

#22 Tonka

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:24

Honda have left World Championship motorcycle racing before - the sport didn't die. Honda have left F1 several times - F1 is still there.

Honda should be told not to slam the door on the way out. If they went, who's to say Suzuki & Kawasaki wouldn't return. BMW already have their toes in the water.




#23 Risil

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:29

Honda have left World Championship motorcycle racing before - the sport didn't die. Honda have left F1 several times - F1 is still there.


Last time Honda left, you had MV Agustas -- invariably piloted by Agostini -- winning every 500cc race, often by about a lap, until 1973. Five years. MotoGP could barely survive one year of Lorenzo and Yamaha doing that. In those days of course you had brilliant competition in the other classes but I don't think with modern marketing and broadcasting techniques you'd be able to get much exposure out of the Moto2-3 championship battles. People would certainly watch World Superbike though.

#24 Tonka

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:40

They are the ones spending the money, financing the whole thing, paying the drivers, spending development money - The FIM sit on their backsides and pay themselves large salaries...


Racing is paid out of the advertising and R&D budgets. It's a tiny percentage of the companies profit. Honda also get dosh from Repsol and free parts from the manufactures of forks, brakes, suspension etc. If Honda went, the 'external' backing would probably find it's way to other teams.

When Honda recently left F1, they gave away the best part of £350m to rid themselves of the team. Who cares if they lose a few bob by leaving MotoGP.

Not so many years ago, there were many small manufactures involved in racing. Constant rule changes, which I believe Honda have pushed, killed off the small teams. They don't have the budgets to compete, when they need to develop a completely new engine every 3 or 4 years. I'd like to see RACING - if that means going back to a 500cc any format engine, I'd be happy - and so would the 'also rans' who make up the bulk of the grid at MotoGP.




#25 Tonka

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:48

Last time Honda left, you had MV Agustas -- invariably piloted by Agostini -- winning every 500cc race, often by about a lap, until 1973. Five years. MotoGP could barely survive one year of Lorenzo and Yamaha doing that. In those days of course you had brilliant competition in the other classes but I don't think with modern marketing and broadcasting techniques you'd be able to get much exposure out of the Moto2-3 championship battles. People would certainly watch World Superbike though.


Yamaha are not the only works team racing in MotoGP.

Honda could also take a hike out of Moto2 & 3. HTF did they get the monopoly to supply engines to Moto2? Why haven't they developed the 600 engines? Why can't the bike owners tune the engines? Go back a few years and everyone worked on their own engines and reaped the benefits if they got it right. Arsing around with frames isn't 'prototype' racing in anyone's book.






#26 Risil

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:55

Yamaha are not the only works team racing in MotoGP.


No but I've excluded Ducati from my calculations because they haven't looked like winning with anyone except Stoner since 2008.

Honda could also take a hike out of Moto2 & 3. HTF did they get the monopoly to supply engines to Moto2? Why haven't they developed the 600 engines? Why can't the bike owners tune the engines? Go back a few years and everyone worked on their own engines and reaped the benefits if they got it right. Arsing around with frames isn't 'prototype' racing in anyone's book.


Agree completely. MotoGP seems very complacent at times in thinking that following Formula One's model will replicate its success. If you can call GP2/3 success.

#27 ArnageWRC

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 17:00

No but I've excluded Ducati from my calculations because they haven't looked like winning with anyone except Stoner since 2008.



Agree completely. MotoGP seems very complacent at times in thinking that following Formula One's model will replicate its success. If you can call GP2/3 success.


Blame Dorna/Ezepeleta...for this. Aping F1, thinking it will work for MotoGP, so 125/250 become lesser championships. Also in recent times almost making it a Mediterranean series..with Spain getting 3-4 races, Italy 2....


#28 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 17:06

Well if they're going to leave anyways, used this as the excuse to put in the rules package you really want.

#29 TheBunk

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 17:12

How to wreck a nice series, see indycars. Well done dorna, fia.

#30 Fastcake

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 17:56

How to wreck a nice series, see indycars. Well done dorna, fia.


It's the FIM, not FIA. It's an entirely separate corrupt incompetent sports governing body.

#31 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 18:45

The problem with Moto-GP, has been the astronomical cost the manufacturers charged to lease a bike. This has been an issue for the last 20 years. Manufacturers should be allowed to supply privateer teams engines, as well as transmissions. Many privateers wanted to run Suzuki and Kawasaki's, yet the Japanese always said no. HRC has been a credit in this department, as well as Ducati. Yamaha only have Tech 3/Herve Poncharal and IMO could have supplied a bike or 2 more, as for Kawasaki and Suzuki? They were pitiful and I felt little sadness when they left. A 5 year set of regs should be agreed, cheap enough to entice Kawasaki and Suzuki back into Moto-GP, to attract Aprilla and KTM, but technically challenging enough to keep the likes of Honda in the series. A years supply of works engines and transmissions for 2 riders costing around 1-1.5 million Euros, would be a start. That would allow a privateer team to run 2 bikes/riders, for a whole season for around 2.5 to 3 million Euro's.

#32 TheBunk

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 19:06

It's the FIM, not FIA. It's an entirely separate corrupt incompetent sports governing body.


I ment I think FIA does the same as Dorna: killing a nice series with the same moves as with the death of indycar.

Edited by TheBunk, 12 June 2012 - 19:08.


#33 TheBunk

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 19:07

The problem with Moto-GP, has been the astronomical cost the manufacturers charged to lease a bike. This has been an issue for the last 20 years. Manufacturers should be allowed to supply privateer teams engines, as well as transmissions. Many privateers wanted to run Suzuki and Kawasaki's, yet the Japanese always said no. HRC has been a credit in this department, as well as Ducati. Yamaha only have Tech 3/Herve Poncharal and IMO could have supplied a bike or 2 more, as for Kawasaki and Suzuki? They were pitiful and I felt little sadness when they left. A 5 year set of regs should be agreed, cheap enough to entice Kawasaki and Suzuki back into Moto-GP, to attract Aprilla and KTM, but technically challenging enough to keep the likes of Honda in the series. A years supply of works engines and transmissions for 2 riders costing around 1-1.5 million Euros, would be a start. That would allow a privateer team to run 2 bikes/riders, for a whole season for around 2.5 to 3 million Euro's.


If you cant afford a prototype bike, but want to race spec, you should look elsewhere. And while were at it, get rid of the motogp name, and change back to 500cc.

#34 Option1

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 19:14

Funniest thing about this thread (apart from Honda's latest desire to rule everything or throw their toys out of the pram.) - the number of comments from those I doubt have ever even seen a MotoGP race, but are determined that everything is Dorna and the FIM's fault. :rotfl:

Neil

#35 TheBunk

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 19:18

Funniest thing about this thread (apart from Honda's latest desire to rule everything or throw their toys out of the pram.) - the number of comments from those I doubt have ever even seen a MotoGP race, but are determined that everything is Dorna and the FIM's fault. :rotfl:

Neil


Whos fault do you think it is?

#36 Bartel

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 19:45

Honda have left World Championship motorcycle racing before - the sport didn't die. Honda have left F1 several times - F1 is still there.

Honda should be told not to slam the door on the way out. If they went, who's to say Suzuki & Kawasaki wouldn't return. BMW already have their toes in the water.

Honda aren't, weren't a massive powerhouse in F1 its fair to say. and when Honda left in the early 90's they were only an engine supplier and in those days half the grid was cosworth. Honda is a big part of Motogp, alot bigger than it ever was in F1.

#37 Option1

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 19:47

Like most of these things, a bit of everyone's. Fault implies something was broken or a decision made which Honda didn't have a say in. Given that I don't believe a decision has actually been made yet, some of this is Honda posturing. Not like a manufacture has ever done that before...

Neil


#38 Tonka

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 21:20

Funniest thing about this thread (apart from Honda's latest desire to rule everything or throw their toys out of the pram.) - the number of comments from those I doubt have ever even seen a MotoGP race, but are determined that everything is Dorna and the FIM's fault.


You have a point or just showing off?

BTW - I've not ridden a MotoGP bike - does that exclude me from making comments?



#39 Tonka

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 21:23

Honda aren't, weren't a massive powerhouse in F1 its fair to say. and when Honda left in the early 90's they were only an engine supplier and in those days half the grid was cosworth. Honda is a big part of Motogp, alot bigger than it ever was in F1.



Honda left and returned before then.





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#40 muramasa

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 21:59

hm, so this is an interview done by Japanese journalist in Japanese language translated and published on Italian website, which is then translated into English to make an article?

So I searched but couldnt find original content in Japanese, but found website posting what looks to be a good translation of the "original" italian article, and I get pretty different impression than that GPweek article from it.

It's more like tell-all type interview and Nakamoto is talking frankly about what's going on recently answering many q's being asked, about Casey, next year's rider, rookie rule, suzuki's return, in-season change to new tyres etc, rather than public bluff towards Dorna that the op article wants to make it out to be (altho it does mention "frank interviw"). Nakamoto is actually positive about CRT and expresses desire and vision about it. On rule changes, his position is 2015 introduction rather than 2014, but he's not opposing cost reduction at all, and talking more about specific things like carbon brake and so on. etc etc.

Maybe one of Japanese motorsport magazines carries the interview in full (in Japan, online motorsport media is weak and magazine form is still major)? I'm not sure but maybe I'll pop in bookstore..

Anyway it seems gpweek excerpted only "gonna quit" part out of context to make short article with sensational headline attached. To me, more like GPweek taking advantge of HRC-vs-Dorna sumo wrestling!
(Nakamoto is criticizing Bridgestone's new front tyre very harshly, even saying "Bridgestone must not want us to win" or sth, to which Bridgestone respond equaly harsh, like "only few riders have issues with our new tyres...", etc. Honda-Bridgestone spat is far more entertaining, funny and sensational actually :lol: )

It's refreshing to me btw to see Nakamoto/Honda being bullish and "selfish", how very un-Japanese :lol: :p
(but dont quit! ;) )

Edited by muramasa, 12 June 2012 - 22:45.


#41 TheBunk

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 22:49

Like most of these things, a bit of everyone's. Fault implies something was broken or a decision made which Honda didn't have a say in. Given that I don't believe a decision has actually been made yet, some of this is Honda posturing. Not like a manufacture has ever done that before...

Neil


Well, one of the biggest stars of motogp did make some posturing already. He quits, because of the same arguments of Honda. I read a lot of fears from fans already that itl now just be Lorenzo all the way.