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Ferrari - Team Orders Time?


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#1 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 14:37

With Massa starting to look more comfortable in the car, how would you guys feel if Massa found himself in front of Alonso in a coming race and Ferrari used team orders to get Alonso by? Team orders are perfectly legal now, so its down to whether or not the team want to see their drivers racing each other.

Personally, if I'm making the calls at Ferrari, I say go for it. People will complain, but looking at the championship standings, its already become insanely clear who Ferrari's championship contender is this year. Massa might be able to help out in the WCC if he continues his resurgence, but the WDC is all Alonso's to fight for now I feel. Massa may have a mathematical chance still, but its hardly a realistic one. I feel it'd be perfectly justified to ask Massa to move aside.

I know a lot of people were upset about Hockenheim in 2010 because team orders weren't legal. Does team orders being legal now make you feel differently if you saw them being used during a race?

Edited by Seanspeed, 11 June 2012 - 14:38.


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#2 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 14:40

It's not like Massa can deliberately block Alonso's rivals for too long - KERS and the DRS have largely seen to that. I dont think Massa's ever close enough to Alonso in qualifying or the race to really help him anyway.

#3 Cavani

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 14:41

ferrari learnt from germany 2010 , they wont mention it on the radio , you will see massa being overtaken in a drs zone or in the end of a straight (typical passing zones) and all teams do that

#4 Jon83

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 14:59

It's no big deal. Part of the sport and was a silly rule in the first place.

Not really sure why we are just talking about this in relation Ferrari. Unless of course people only associate team orders with them.

Same could be said of any of the other teams and has probably already happened with Kimi and Grosjean in Bahrain for instance.

#5 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:03

Not really sure why we are just talking about this in relation Ferrari. Unless of course people only associate team orders with them.

Because its the only team right now that really have one driver with a realistic shot at the WDC. Mercedes' situation is close, but Schumacher has still shown the speed to potentially beat Rosberg this season.

#6 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:03

I usually like your comments, so don't take as an attack, but this is one of the worst question I have read here. What if Massa's t-shiert looked brigther than Fernando's? Should he fire his cleaning man?
I understand your question, but Felipe is nowhere near to be able to be constantly right on Fernando's tail. He is stronger now, maybe he will beat Fernando in qualifying of the middle year, like he did in 2011 (Hungaroring, Spa), but I think Fernando will manage it.


#7 Jon83

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:06

Because its the only team right now that really have one driver with a realistic shot at the WDC. Mercedes' situation is close, but Schumacher has still shown the speed to potentially beat Rosberg this season.


There is no chance (and it pains me to say as a big MSC fan) of him being more likely than Massa to catch his teammate to the point that he will be right in the thick of the championship battle as the season moves towards it's business end.

This is all assuming that in 3 or 4 races time, Alonso is right at the sharp end still. In that same time, Hamilton could be much further ahead of Button for example.

Just my opinion of course and I'd be delighted to see MSC prove me wrong!

#8 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:07

I usually like your comments, so don't take as an attack, but this is one of the worst question I have read here. What if Massa's t-shiert looked brigther than Fernando's? Should he fire his cleaning man?
I understand your question, but Felipe is nowhere near to be able to be constantly right on Fernando's tail. He is stronger now, maybe he will beat Fernando in qualifying of the middle year, like he did in 2011 (Hungaroring, Spa), but I think Fernando will manage it.

They started right alongside each other in Monaco. Massa's a good starter and its not impossible to think of a situation where Massa could find himself in front of Alonso, whether by merit or circumstance.

Its a hypothetical situation, obviously, I'm just curious what people would think if it did happen.

#9 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:07

Another note to the topic: people who always desperately try to condemn Ferrari for using team ordes, haven't seen any series beside F1. DTM and WTCC are the best examples how hard team orders can be applied...

Edited by FerrariAlonso, 11 June 2012 - 15:09.


#10 aditya-now

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:07

With Massa starting to look more comfortable in the car, how would you guys feel if Massa found himself in front of Alonso in a coming race and Ferrari used team orders to get Alonso by? Team orders are perfectly legal now, so its down to whether or not the team want to see their drivers racing each other.

Personally, if I'm making the calls at Ferrari, I say go for it. People will complain, but looking at the championship standings, its already become insanely clear who Ferrari's championship contender is this year. Massa might be able to help out in the WCC if he continues his resurgence, but the WDC is all Alonso's to fight for now I feel. Massa may have a mathematical chance still, but its hardly a realistic one. I feel it'd be perfectly justified to ask Massa to move aside.

I know a lot of people were upset about Hockenheim in 2010 because team orders weren't legal. Does team orders being legal now make you feel differently if you saw them being used during a race?


First Felipe would have to be ahead of Fernando...


#11 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:09

There is no chance (and it pains me to say as a big MSC fan) of him being more likely than Massa to catch his teammate to the point that he will be right in the thick of the championship battle as the season moves towards it's business end.

This is all assuming that in 3 or 4 races time, Alonso is right at the sharp end still. In that same time, Hamilton could be much further ahead of Button for example.

Just my opinion of course and I'd be delighted to see MSC prove me wrong!

True. Just looked at the standings and hadn't seen that Schumacher had that few points, damn.

#12 Jon83

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:11

They started right alongside each other in Monaco. Massa's a good starter and its not impossible to think of a situation where Massa could find himself in front of Alonso, whether by merit or circumstance.

Its a hypothetical situation, obviously, I'm just curious what people would think if it did happen.


If it happened, then Ferrari should be doing the right thing (like they did in Germany 2010) and asking Massa to move over. Like they did also in Melbourne last year.

They got the decision right, just went about it slightly the wrong way and the British media went nuts. Hamilton passed Kovalianen in 2008 which was very similar yet little was said.

#13 Les

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:17

I really don't see this as an issue as Massa never gets anywhere near Alonso!

#14 Anomnader

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:24

I would have no problem with him moving aside for Alonso at this moment in point, just as mentioned that he didn't become a blocker or anything like that.

#15 undersquare

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:35

As a Mac fan I'd be laughing my head off if Ferrari let Felipe hold Nando up for a second!

I'm already delighted that Monty is so loyal to the guy with 11 points to his teammate's 86, when we could be facing the guy who's scored 37 in a Sauber.

Hock 2010 had a lot of factors, one of which was Massa was still in it, and another of which was that after Oz there was clearly a deal to let the faster car through if it made up 3 seconds, but the idea was to let it attack cars in front, not take the win on a plate. Not to mention making up those 3 seconds with a higher engine setting. So Hock was quite deceitful even before they all started lying about it afterwards.

A straightforward and open 'make way Felipe' would be only common sense now, I wouldn't criticise it at all.

#16 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:36

With Massa starting to look more comfortable in the car, how would you guys feel if Massa found himself in front of Alonso in a coming race and Ferrari used team orders to get Alonso by? Team orders are perfectly legal now.


You've answered your own question there.


#17 SCUDmissile

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:54

Right now, I would let Massa take the win. Would be better in the long term, and hopefully bring Felipe back to his usual self with a confidence boosting result.

That said, only if they are running 1-2, as then Alonso would still gain on his rivals.

#18 solochamp07

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:56

Moot question - the blue flags would preclude any need for a radio call to FM.  ;)

#19 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 16:06

Its Massa's job to take points away from Alonso's competitors not Alonso. Definitely Massa would let Alonso through.

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#20 RealRacing

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 16:32

There has been a team hierarchy at Ferrari probably since day one and even more after HH 2010. Unless something really bad had happened to FA at the beginning of the championship and Massa had been way ahead, I believe FA is the de-facto No. 1.

Having said that, and this has been discussed extensively in this forum even recently, early TOs are an unfair advantage, in this case to FA, vs. the rest of the WDC contenders who are still fighting their own teammates (Vettel>Webber, Hamilton>Button, Kimi>Grosjean, Nico>Schumacher).

#21 puxanando

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 16:41

Another note to the topic: people who always desperately try to condemn Ferrari for using team ordes, haven't seen any series beside F1. DTM and WTCC are the best examples how hard team orders can be applied...


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#22 JRizzle86

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 17:31

Massa knows well enough now that if the highly unlikely situation that he ends up in front of Fernando that either.

a) Fernando has retired.
b) He is about to be lapped.
c) The world is about to end

#23 toxicfusion

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 17:48

With F1 a totally different game to what is was in Germany 2010. I can't see a similar situation occurring, the issue was around Hockeinheim overtaking was difficult and near impossible. DRS should (in theory) solve that.

#24 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 18:09

This is a non issue now. Ferrari can do whatever they want and people have to shut up and deal with it.

#25 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 18:42

You've answered your own question there.

Team orders were legal in Austria 2002 as well. People obviously didn't like the decision still. For many, I dont think the issue of team orders is purely a legal one, but also a moral one. For Aus 02, seems most people didn't feel Ferrari were justified in employing team orders so early on. And I would agree. It was way too early and Rubens was hardly performing badly at the time. But its also quite early in this season now and I was just curious if anybody still had a bit of a stricter idea of when team orders became justified.

And of course Ferrari CAN do it. Doesn't mean people would be happy with it or feel it was ok, though.

#26 Tifosi4ever

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 20:20

Team orders were legal in Austria 2002 as well. People obviously didn't like the decision still. For many, I dont think the issue of team orders is purely a legal one, but also a moral one. For Aus 02, seems most people didn't feel Ferrari were justified in employing team orders so early on. And I would agree. It was way too early and Rubens was hardly performing badly at the time. But its also quite early in this season now and I was just curious if anybody still had a bit of a stricter idea of when team orders became justified.

And of course Ferrari CAN do it. Doesn't mean people would be happy with it or feel it was ok, though.


Not too early now. Fernando is the only Ferrari driver in the hunt for the title, so of course if Felipe is just ahead of Fernando, he should let him past. Any team in a similar situation that didn't do this would be mad. It is exactly the same situation as at Merc. If Michael was leading the next GP, and Nico was second, I would fully expect Michael to let Nico past, since his 2 points thus far are not going to mount any sort of championship challenge, whereas Nico's 67 points can realistically win. The 7 points that Michael would take from Nico could mean the difference between winning a WDC or not.

At the moment, of the top teams, Ferrari and Mercedes clearly need to concentrate on 1 driver. McLaren are nearly there, barring a miracle few results for Jenson. Red Bull are nowhere near seeing who is most likely to win, and Lotus are even more evenly matched. So, for the WDC, Fernando and Nico are currently the 2 that should have team mate backup, and McLaren will soon be in this situation too. Marko will probably make sure Seb is in this situation prematurely anyway, so we will have to wait a few more GP's to see if it is Kimi or Romain that is the Lotus challenger.

#27 jstrains

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 20:32

There is no need for team orders, Alonso will finish Massa anyway... :rotfl:

#28 northanmonkee

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 22:18

if felipe found himself in front of alonso , he would yeild if asked , however i hope they would not
do it so obvouisly this time .
doing it out in the open broke his spirit and also caused him untold grief with his home countries press .
it also made ferrari look bad in the eyes of nuetral race fans who dont quite get that
f1 racing is a cut throat buisness first and entertainment second .
team orders happen all the time in all teams and always have .
but maybe they should use code words and like some1 posted above do it in drs zones ect
so if it does happen again it wont be a big issue .




#29 RealRacing

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 22:36

Team orders were legal in Austria 2002 as well. People obviously didn't like the decision still. For many, I dont think the issue of team orders is purely a legal one, but also a moral one. For Aus 02, seems most people didn't feel Ferrari were justified in employing team orders so early on. And I would agree. It was way too early and Rubens was hardly performing badly at the time. But its also quite early in this season now and I was just curious if anybody still had a bit of a stricter idea of when team orders became justified.

And of course Ferrari CAN do it. Doesn't mean people would be happy with it or feel it was ok, though.


There are no morals in F1, this has been widely proven. Having said that, TOs may be legal but they are not moral until one of the drivers has no mathematical chance at the WDC. So, for the people asking when they would be ok to apply, that's the answer. Any time before that gives the preferred driver an unfair advantage against WDC opponents, and, if the case was that he wins the WDC, creates an unworthy champion. Aus 2002 and HH 2010 were unjustified.

Edited by RealRacing, 11 June 2012 - 23:12.


#30 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 23:39

There are no morals in F1, this has been widely proven. Having said that, TOs may be legal but they are not moral until one of the drivers has no mathematical chance at the WDC. So, for the people asking when they would be ok to apply, that's the answer. Any time before that gives the preferred driver an unfair advantage against WDC opponents, and, if the case was that he wins the WDC, creates an unworthy champion. Aus 2002 and HH 2010 were unjustified.


Imo it isn't a moral decision, it is a business decision. And what best achieves the teams goals sets the basis for the decision. Being mathematically eliminated is not a threshold at all for being fair or moral to the drivers, the team doesn't need to be fair to the drivers at all other than what is written in their contracts!

Just think of the drivers that didn't make or were cut from the team, they don't even have a chance to race. Is that fair/moral? What about the morals around getting a drive on an F1 team, it is alot easier if the driver brings money. It is a business and team orders play a part.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 11 June 2012 - 23:40.


#31 RealRacing

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 00:19

Imo it isn't a moral decision, it is a business decision. And what best achieves the teams goals sets the basis for the decision. Being mathematically eliminated is not a threshold at all for being fair or moral to the drivers, the team doesn't need to be fair to the drivers at all other than what is written in their contracts!

Just think of the drivers that didn't make or were cut from the team, they don't even have a chance to race. Is that fair/moral? What about the morals around getting a drive on an F1 team, it is alot easier if the driver brings money. It is a business and team orders play a part.


Business and moral should not be mutually exclusive. IMO it can't, or should not be, only about results. What is the only objective way of being able to tell the right time to help one driver? When the difference between them is 10, 20, 30 points? Maybe in the last 3, 4, 5 races? There's really no fair way of deciding unless No. 2 has no mathematical chance. After all, all results count for a driver, races won, races won against his teammate, etc., not only WDCs (for example, maybe Massa's slump is somewhat a result of Ferrari's neglect towards this idea).

And contracts can be immoral too. Even when Massa had to sign a contract where it says he's No. 2 (which is probably the case), that does not make it right to make such a contract.

Finally, it's not only morals vis a vis a driver I am talking about, but vis-a-vis the sport and spectators (i.e., you and me). If, as a spectator, you pay for a seat to watch a car race (to me that is mostly car to car fights, so overtaking attempts, blocks, etc.), is it ethical for a team to tamper with this very essence of motor racing? Isn't this similar to fixing a boxing fight? A football, a tenis match? Of course, if you just open the newspaper at the end of the season and are happy that your favourite team, driver won (even if that means, for example, that they asked another driver to crash), then this whole line of reasoning is irrelevant.


#32 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 01:07

Business and moral should not be mutually exclusive. IMO it can't, or should not be, only about results. What is the only objective way of being able to tell the right time to help one driver? When the difference between them is 10, 20, 30 points? Maybe in the last 3, 4, 5 races? There's really no fair way of deciding unless No. 2 has no mathematical chance. After all, all results count for a driver, races won, races won against his teammate, etc., not only WDCs (for example, maybe Massa's slump is somewhat a result of Ferrari's neglect towards this idea).

And contracts can be immoral too. Even when Massa had to sign a contract where it says he's No. 2 (which is probably the case), that does not make it right to make such a contract.

Finally, it's not only morals vis a vis a driver I am talking about, but vis-a-vis the sport and spectators (i.e., you and me). If, as a spectator, you pay for a seat to watch a car race (to me that is mostly car to car fights, so overtaking attempts, blocks, etc.), is it ethical for a team to tamper with this very essence of motor racing? Isn't this similar to fixing a boxing fight? A football, a tenis match? Of course, if you just open the newspaper at the end of the season and are happy that your favourite team, driver won (even if that means, for example, that they asked another driver to crash), then this whole line of reasoning is irrelevant.


I hear what you are saying but it is a team sport with two cars on the track and decisions invariably will be made that are seen to be 'unfair' to the drivers. Just think about it in the way cycling races are run, ie. Giro d'Italia, only in F1 it is not as formalized.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 12 June 2012 - 01:08.


#33 RealRacing

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 02:01

I hear what you are saying but it is a team sport with two cars on the track and decisions invariably will be made that are seen to be 'unfair' to the drivers. Just think about it in the way cycling races are run, ie. Giro d'Italia, only in F1 it is not as formalized.


Agree, but those in favor of TOs often fail to see the other side. It´s not a one-sided coin as some want to believe. If it is a team sport (which is also arguable by the way), it still does not justify certain decisions. Depending on how you see F1, TOs are ok or not and they are ok or not at different times of the season for different people. However, the only objectively measurable way of telling when they are ok to be applied is when the other driver has no chance anymore.

#34 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 02:33

Agree, but those in favor of TOs often fail to see the other side. It´s not a one-sided coin as some want to believe. If it is a team sport (which is also arguable by the way), it still does not justify certain decisions. Depending on how you see F1, TOs are ok or not and they are ok or not at different times of the season for different people. However, the only objectively measurable way of telling when they are ok to be applied is when the other driver has no chance anymore.



Team orders are a necessary evil and using them comes with considerable risk, the main one being the cost to the '#2' drivers moral and subsequent effectiveness. Roles have to be clear and accepted within the team for them to have real success.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 12 June 2012 - 02:41.


#35 Kvothe

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 02:38

I don't believe in there being an established one and two and I think there should only be team orders if one of the drivers is mathematically out of contention for the World Drivers Championship. Unfortunately in Massa's case the mathematical chance of him winning a championship appears to be 0.

#36 RealRacing

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 02:48

Team orders are a necessary evil IMO and using them comes with considerable risk, the main one being the cost to the '#2' drivers moral and subsequent effectiveness. Roles have to be clear and accepted within the team for them to have real success.


Fixed that for you. As said, success is not equal to results. In my book, if FA had won in 2010 for example, it would have been a tainted WDC. Success = respectfulness, integrity with the sport, good sportmanship. In 2010 Ferrari not only broke the rules but they were made fools of by everybody. If I was FA, I would have preferred not to win the WDC and not have to endure the mockery of the whole world during the post-race press conference and the general press in the weeks following the HH TO.

#37 teejay

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 02:57

Way too early in the season...

What if Alonso does a Schumi and breaks his legs in a crash in 2 races time and the focus goes onto Felipe to get the major points?

#38 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 03:08

Fixed that for you. As said, success is not equal to results. In my book, if FA had won in 2010 for example, it would have been a tainted WDC. Success = respectfulness, integrity with the sport, good sportmanship. In 2010 Ferrari not only broke the rules but they were made fools of by everybody. If I was FA, I would have preferred not to win the WDC and not have to endure the mockery of the whole world during the post-race press conference and the general press in the weeks following the HH TO.


I guess in your view there are plenty of tainted wdc's then!

#39 revlec

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:04

There is a reason why some people decide to support Ferrari or Alonso.. Just read the answers here..
They don't care and are not interested in playing a fair game. 1 car per team should resolve the issue.

@Halifax
you bring the example of cycling, yes there they have #1 and #2. ALL the teams have their captain in cycling. In F1 teams are different and Ferrari is doing nothing to bring another top driver. If you cant see why some of us say "unfair" advantage, i don't know what to say.

p.s: F1 should learn from MotoGP. Just saying.

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#40 Creepy

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:12

First Felipe would have to be ahead of Fernando...


Yes, kind of so. First Massa would have to be quicker than Alonso and then keep it up without spinning or something.

#41 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:25

Way too early in the season...

What if Alonso does a Schumi and breaks his legs in a crash in 2 races time and the focus goes onto Felipe to get the major points?

Then Ferrari's WDC chances are pretty much over. Massa is doing better, but he'd still need a BIG step forward in performance if I ever saw him realistically fighting for the title, especially this year, where's got only 11 points out of 7 races.

I understand the 'mathematical' argument. I mean, Massa is still hypothetically perfectly capable of winning this still. There's still 325 points up for grab. But sometimes a team has gotta see beyond whats mathematically possible and focus on whats realistic to expect. I mean, mathematically, De La Rosa is still in this, as well.

As for all those saying that its not an issue cuz Massa would have to be in front, thats probably EXACTLY the sort of attitude that cost Ferrari in Hockenheim 2010. They clearly didn't talk before the race about how they felt about the WDC situation with their drivers. I think its about time for Ferrari to sit down with them and maybe tell Felipe that they really NEED Alonso to finish as well as possible, so be prepared to do whats best for the team. That way no ugly team order execution again.

But on the other side, it would again be an unfortunate time to bring up the no.2 role to Massa right as he's on an upswing in performance....

#42 maverick69

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:57

Looks like it:

Domenicali expects the top three drivers to now emerge as the title contenders.

“I think that the end of the day I believe that looking how things are, the championship could be a fight between Fernando, Lewis and Sebastian, that’s what I think. Maybe after Valencia things could be different, but honestly I think the championship could evolve towards a fight between the first three drivers.”


http://adamcooperf1.com/



#43 britishtrident

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 15:42

The only incentive Ferrari could offer Massa to follow team orders is a bigger golden handshake, Massa knows he is finished his performance in the Canadian race was dreadful.