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How long until DRS causes a serious accident?


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#51 baddog

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:40

Sure it can fail and screw up the balance of the car, but arguing for a ban because of the danger kinda reminds me of this:

Thats not the problem, the problem is potentially arriving in a high speed braking zone with almost no downforce..

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#52 Ali_G

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:47

Thanks to the DRS drivers don't have to take unnecessary risks to overtake. So it makes racing safer.


It's not racing.

#53 F.M.

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:48

I agree with the OP.

DRS, by definition, is unsafe. The fact that the officials reserve the right to turn it off in inclement weather and certain situationsspeaks volumes. How many other parts of a modern Formula One car can be deactivated beyond the team's controls?

For example, I have never heard anyone being told by race control during bad weather "your engine is being turned down to 16000 rpm"; "you must pit and change to wet tyres", "your fuel mix is being made more lean". From the team, maybe; but never from the officials. That is because it is a maxim of motorsport that you race using every tool available to you. You push to the maximum in the dry; you push to the maximum in the wet. That Charlie Whiting can decide to weld part of your toolbox shut just elucidates the artificiality of it.
Imagine the 110m Hurdles at the Olympics. Semi-finals are dry so the race is run as normal. Two hours later its raining heavily so the race coordinator says to the athletes in the final: "It's quite slippery out there, so we've taken away the hurdles. It's just gonna be a straight sprint now". :well:

The myopia of the Formula One fiefdom is astounding. Instead of addressing the problem, they find a short term workaround. The cars have a mechanical cancer (dirty air) which prevents overtaking and instead of chemotherapy (stricter regs on the rear of the car) to try and deal with the problem, Bernie and co. prefer a spot of wig shopping (DRS) to cover it up.

That has happened. Ferrari had to pit for full wets when they started on interns behind the safety car.

They tell all teams to start on full wets with a safety-car start, while sometimes teams feel the inters are the better choice.

#54 OS X

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:53

Not true. Teams are obliged to use wet tires with a SC start in the rain. I vaguely remember Ferrari getting a DT penalty for being on the wrong tires years ago. Now they just loiter behind the SC (if they can keep up due to deg. :p) until it is dry enough for inters.


What I meant was if it begins as a dry race and then it starts raining cats and dogs, race control can say:
'DRS is deactivated'

You would never get the message:
'Your engine has been limited to 16000 rpms' or
'Your car has been put on a leaner fuel mix' or
'You must stop for wet tyres on the next lap'.

DRS, Kers, Tyres, Engine et cetera, they are all tools which help you to win a race. All of these, bar the go go gadget wing, is controlled by driver and team. The fact that DRS is subject to so many stipulations adds to its artificiality. It's a tool but only when we decide to give it to you.

#55 FredrikB

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:59

It's not racing.

Maybe so. Thats another issue. This thread is about safety.

#56 Brother Fox

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:16

I simply can't workout in my head how some people like DRS ? Are you actually one of them ?

No I'm just bemused at the call to have it banned on safety grounds. I think it's artificial and would like to see it go.

Actually, my problem is not with a moveable rear wing as such, but the application - only trailing car, within 1 second, in the DR zone etc ... Too gimmicky

#57 Burtros

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:23

It's just another part of the car that can break, there's many parts that, if broke, would cause an accident. Plus 'next to no' rear downforce is a bit of an exaggeration.



Brilliant reply.

Front wings can come off, get stuck under the front wheels. Ratzenburger would tell you that were he still around. Yet, we still have them in F1 and it still happens from time to time resulting in terrifying smashes. Why are people not calling for them to be banned?

If you dont like DRS, thats fine, but this whole saftey argument is utter nonsense.



#58 spacekid

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:26

I hate DRS.

However, I don't think it should be banned on grounds of safety, I don't see it being more of a risk than, say, trying to change 4 wheels in 3 seconds or having a standing start.

I think it should be ditched because it neuters racing. I just don't equate one car blasting past another with an 'overtake'. Piquet on Senna at Hungary - that was an overtake. DRS severley reduces the chances you'll get to see that. There has to be a better solution.

#59 tifosi

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:30

But the problem is that we had examples of car being 1-2s faster but being unable to pass. How do you fix that.


Get rid of all the stupid aero crap.

I mean come on, assuming you've watched F1 more than 2 years, could you really get that excited about Hamilton's pass on Alonso? He pushed a button and instantley had a MUCH faster car. It was 100% inevitable and had absolutely zero suspense.

I understand as a fanboy you could blow a load watching it, but I'm tallking about from a per racing persepctive, how fun is it to watch what is essentially Mariokarts? And yes, I give credit where credit is due. Hamilton caught Alonso, got within the required 1 second and pulled away afterwards, but the fact is the pass was a complete and total joke. It had no suspense at all and required absolutely no skill other than some very slight pressure of the thumb. Whoopee!

The OP of this thread discussed the dangers of DRS failure. Well we have had many dangerous effects due to catastrophic wing failures. Get rid of the stupid things. Go back to cars that relied on superior suspension, good balanced chassis, and strong powerful engines. In other words, cars WE would all love to be driving.

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#60 tifosi

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:31

Thanks to the DRS drivers don't have to take unnecessary risks to overtake. So it makes racing safer.



Jeezus :down:

I don't want anyone hurt, but christ.

#61 muramasa

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:38


Maybe its been discussed and analyzed already, but Merc's DRS is unique, its actuator is in endplates rather than center bulge. I wonder Merc's system is somewhat flawed.

#62 Tsarwash

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:48

Get rid of all the stupid aero crap.

I mean come on, assuming you've watched F1 more than 2 years, could you really get that excited about Hamilton's pass on Alonso? He pushed a button and instantley had a MUCH faster car. It was 100% inevitable and had absolutely zero suspense.

I agree that DRS is taking the suspense out of important overtakes, and people are now taking less overtaking risks, knowing that they can wait for the DRS zone. BUT, given that the teams and the FIA are NOT going to get rid of all that 'stupid aero crap' this year or next, how do we avoid the 'Trulli Train' issues that plagued the last decade of the sport ?

I suspect that one of the main reasons why the teams and FIA will not get rid of the complex aeros is because it's one of the only places where they can make a big difference in performance these days, and each team would have to lay off a hundred staff, who would be aero specialists. If they did lose all the aero crap, then F1 would no longer be the premier motorsport event. All sorts of categories would become much faster, and F1 would lose it's prestige rapidly.


#63 FredrikB

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:13

Jeezus :down:

I don't want anyone hurt, but christ.

Fantastic reply. Please elaborate.

#64 mlsnoopy

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:19

Abandon this 30yo basic config of F1 car and come up with and introduce brand new spec car.


But didn't they try something like that in 2009?

Get rid of all the stupid aero crap.

I mean come on, assuming you've watched F1 more than 2 years, could you really get that excited about Hamilton's pass on Alonso? He pushed a button and instantley had a MUCH faster car. It was 100% inevitable and had absolutely zero suspense.

I understand as a fanboy you could blow a load watching it, but I'm tallking about from a per racing persepctive, how fun is it to watch what is essentially Mariokarts? And yes, I give credit where credit is due. Hamilton caught Alonso, got within the required 1 second and pulled away afterwards, but the fact is the pass was a complete and total joke. It had no suspense at all and required absolutely no skill other than some very slight pressure of the thumb. Whoopee!

The OP of this thread discussed the dangers of DRS failure. Well we have had many dangerous effects due to catastrophic wing failures. Get rid of the stupid things. Go back to cars that relied on superior suspension, good balanced chassis, and strong powerful engines. In other words, cars WE would all love to be driving.


See that was exactly the point of my first post. Safety isn't the problem but the fact that Hamilton passed Alonso. That is exactly why alot of people are angry at the DRS.

Edited by mlsnoopy, 12 June 2012 - 12:20.


#65 Jon83

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:20

KNEEEEEEEE JEEEEERRRRRRKKKKKKK


To what?

It is a perfectly reasonable question to ask.

Edited by Jon83, 12 June 2012 - 12:20.


#66 tifosi

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:35

While i'admit i'm not a big fan of DRS, it did spice things up. Better than watching a parade, IMO.


Im sorry, and I agree the parade thing is a bore, but how is watching someone simply push a little button and suddenly having a car that per the regulations isn't even remotely in the same class spicing things up.

I mean is it really that exciting for you when an LMP1 car passes a GTC?

Soccer (football to you non-'mercs) is a really defensive game and can get pretty boring. I think for every goal you score you should have to remove one defender. That would spice things up a bit!

#67 Kucki

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:35

We have seen several accidents caused by DRS.. where a driver once committed to a drs pass is going so much faster than the car in front that they are unable to avoid tail-ending them when the defending driver does anything unexpected.

The system makes racing worse (drivers now avoid, and are instructed to avoid, passing anywhere else), is somewhat dangerous, doesn't usually even work as intended.. It seems like all lose to me.



If we look at the battle between Hamilton and Alonso for example. We saw Hamilton beeing all over Alonso around the circuit, he could have made several exciting attempts, for example into the hairpin, he always backed out of it, because he knew he could just cruise by with DRS later on.

It was really sad moment for me to watch as a long time F1 fan to know, there we could have seen another great fight between two greats, and instead we see him drive by like you do other cars on a highway.

If only we would have drivers today like Ayrton Senna, or Nigel Mansell, they wouldnt be afraid to speak out against this BS. I just hope we will go back to real racing before many of the current grid retires. Its a shame.

Edited by Kucki, 12 June 2012 - 12:37.


#68 tifosi

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:38

But didn't they try something like that in 2009?



See that was exactly the point of my first post. Safety isn't the problem but the fact that Hamilton passed Alonso. That is exactly why alot of people are angry at the DRS.


Point 1 - No, not really.

Pouint 2 - No, any DRS pass is the same, its inevitable and quite boring to see someone simply apply a tiny bit of pressure with his thumb and suddnely be in a car that isn't even in the same class as the other cars.

#69 undersquare

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:40

Maybe its been discussed and analyzed already, but Merc's DRS is unique, its actuator is in endplates rather than center bulge. I wonder Merc's system is somewhat flawed.

Yeah I think so. And they WILL fix it since it gave them a DNF.

I don't think DRS is a big safety issue. IMO for the sport they need a smaller gap than 50mm with a longer zone to use it.

#70 undersquare

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:42

Pouint 2 - No, any DRS pass is the same, its inevitable and quite boring to see someone simply apply a tiny bit of pressure with his thumb and suddnely be in a car that isn't even in the same class as the other cars.


It looks a bit like that, till you notice all the passes they couldn't do.


#71 tifosi

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:45

It looks a bit like that, till you notice all the passes they couldn't do.


So because the regulations don't allow proper racing, Mariokart really does it for you.

#72 muramasa

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:58

But didn't they try something like that in 2009?

it was only cosmetic change. Huge front / rear wings and flat / stepped bottom with diffuser attached at the end of it havent changed and is now 30 years old.

I'm not saying ground effect will be savior. But mid-2000s GP2 cars had only trivial GE features like tiny sideskirts and semi-wingcar bottom, and the racing was fantastic. Just give it a try, I'd say.


#73 undersquare

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 13:10

So because the regulations don't allow proper racing, Mariokart really does it for you.

Well I agree DRS is a kludge. But it's a partially successful kludge IMO, in that it doesn't always allow an overtake, only sometimes. In Canada it made the difference once the car behind was really close, through having better tyres.

It looks too dramatic with the 50mm slot, that's why I think they should reduce it, but maybe lengthen the zone.

#74 iotar

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 13:20

It will only create a serious incident when some "pure racing", nostalgia driven fan shoots himself in protest.

Have you seen Buemi's accident? Ban wheels, they are more dangerous.
Have you seen Raikkonen wing falling off incident. Ban wings, they are more dangerous.

Edited by iotar, 12 June 2012 - 13:22.


#75 dau

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 13:32

Thats not the problem, the problem is potentially arriving in a high speed braking zone with almost no downforce..

Not really. Neither diffuser nor front wing are affected by DRS - unless you have some ingenious device linking DRS to some FW F-duct of course. Even the rear wing has still a second flap that will create downforce, although being less effective than before. DRS is supposed to cut overall drag by about 15-18%. As most of an F1 car's drag comes from its wings, i'd by surprised if they'd lose more than 20% of downforce. That's not "almost no downforce".

I'd also like to hear about those DRS related accidents you mentioned.

#76 Clatter

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 13:42

I'm pretty sure we had passing on the straights with a 15kph speed difference long before DRS.


Quite rare occurence when it's the front running cars, and certainly less so since the engines have been limited.

#77 tifosi

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:02

. Safety isn't the problem but the fact that Hamilton passed Alonso. That is exactly why alot of people are angry at the DRS.


I don't really see that. I see the same posters making the same arguements against DRS since the beginning of the year. Some people just do not appreciate "push-to-pass" gimmicks such as you find in Mario-kart. What's next, shoot little beams at them to drop 30 horsepower?

Maybe we can put little "power boost" pillows around the track that give your KERs an extra push.

#78 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:09

Not really. Neither diffuser nor front wing are affected by DRS - unless you have some ingenious device linking DRS to some FW F-duct of course. Even the rear wing has still a second flap that will create downforce, although being less effective than before. DRS is supposed to cut overall drag by about 15-18%. As most of an F1 car's drag comes from its wings, i'd by surprised if they'd lose more than 20% of downforce. That's not "almost no downforce".

I'd also like to hear about those DRS related accidents you mentioned.


I allready mentioned them:
- Silverstone: Koboyashi vs. Schumacher. DRS enabled for the first time in damp conditions. Schumacher underestimates the speed difference due to the first time to use it there.
- Spain: Speed difference between Senna and again Schumacher was huge. The weaving in the braking zone didn't help either. I don't want to dig up that discussion, but I support JV for the first time.;)
- I don't know other incidents. F1 coverage is in general not very good, so you can't see everything.

#79 muramasa

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:21

I suspect that one of the main reasons why the teams and FIA will not get rid of the complex aeros is because it's one of the only places where they can make a big difference in performance these days, and each team would have to lay off a hundred staff, who would be aero specialists. If they did lose all the aero crap, then F1 would no longer be the premier motorsport event. All sorts of categories would become much faster, and F1 would lose it's prestige rapidly.

Even if they overhaul aero and introduce ground effect, as long as they dont deploy standard parts for large area of the car, aero will be as important as it is now.

Reason why they dont change things is because they pursue parity so much that their brains stuck.
Also conservativeness plays big role there, as it does in many part of the society. Keep things only because it's been this way, even tho it's lame, irrelevant and obsolete for long time - in motorsport, LMP cars being "2-seater", (and that "having to have space to put one suitcase in the car" rule still there?) is another good example for that.


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#80 Clatter

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:25

Safety isn't the problem but the fact that Hamilton passed Alonso. That is exactly why alot of people are angry at the DRS.


I agree safety isn't an issue, but as a Hamilton fan I'm certainly not angry because he passed Alonso. I was against DRS, or rather the manner it has been implemented since it was announced.

#81 dau

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:32

I allready mentioned them:
- Silverstone: Koboyashi vs. Schumacher. DRS enabled for the first time in damp conditions. Schumacher underestimates the speed difference due to the first time to use it there.
- Spain: Speed difference between Senna and again Schumacher was huge. The weaving in the braking zone didn't help either. I don't want to dig up that discussion, but I support JV for the first time.;)
- I don't know other incidents. F1 coverage is in general not very good, so you can't see everything.

Oops, didn't see your post then.

Ok, those are DRS related of course, but both accidents were mainly caused by drivers making silly mistakes and both could've easily happened without DRS. I don't think those examples are useful to prove how dangerous DRS is.

@Clatter: I wasn't thinking about the last few engine freeze years when i wrote "long before DRS". Cars having massive top speed differences were not exactly uncommon in the past. We just got used to a max difference of about 10-15kph in the last decade or so.

#82 Suntrek

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 14:41

The thing is, i think everyone if forgetting that F1 itself, is a dangerous sport. Let's look at the alternative:

More powerful engines
Less aero
Ban on electronics


The whole thing boils down to the same thing : It's unsafe.

While i'admit i'm not a big fan of DRS, it did spice things up. Better than watching a parade, IMO.


Yes, F1 is mundamentally unsafe, but on the conrtary to the things you've listed is DRS just a gizmo ploy invented by the FIA.

It has notinng to do with either car performance or the relibility prospects of the car in question. Look at what you've written and imagine the same without DRS.
'What would for example - Ayrton Senna's or Nigel Mansell's verdict be?

And if you want spice - please try some other sport, Or sniff saffron, I've heard the scent is lovely.

Edited by Suntrek, 12 June 2012 - 14:46.


#83 ViMaMo

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 15:02

There isnt any alternative to DRS. If anyone thinks 2012 tyres will offset that, im not entirely sure how it will pan out; you might get processions between pitstops. Thats why a badly laid DRS zone gets plastered now and then, its just happening now. Next race pls with DRS on.

#84 Kucki

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 16:00

There isnt any alternative to DRS.


Gee how did we ever had racing without DRS for 60+ years?? Must have been a dream.

#85 sharo

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 16:02

Safety is just a component of the whole DRS problem - every such appendage adds a certain probability for failure.

We had a very good example in Canada: MS did a real classic late braking overtake against Kobayashi at the hairpin (the detection zone), on the straight Koba got back his position without any effort.

Another masterfully executed real overtake was Rosberg's at the last chicane. Can't remember against whom.

Edited by sharo, 12 June 2012 - 16:04.


#86 ViMaMo

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 16:27

Gee how did we ever had racing without DRS for 60+ years?? Must have been a dream.


Oh my god, why didnt i think of that? :rolleyes:


#87 Romulan

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 17:16

How long until DRS causes a serious accident?

This question is called a 'leading question'. ". . . a leading question or suggestive interrogation is a question that suggests the answer or contains the information the examiner is looking for."

dav115 is suggesting that DRS will cause a serious accident.

The following is another example of a 'leading question':

Why has Schumacher become such a car breaker?

Mauseri is suggesting that Michael Schumacher is a "car breaker".
http://forums.autosp...howtopic=169328



http://en.wikipedia....eading_question

#88 peroa

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:21

According to AMuS the drivers have approached Charlie and asked him to ban DRS for next year because of safety concerns.
http://www.auto-moto...12-6053992.html

#89 03011969

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:43

According to AMuS the drivers have approached Charlie and asked him to ban DRS for next year because of safety concerns.
http://www.auto-moto...12-6053992.html

Maybe the drivers should only trigger DRS when they feel it is safe to do so?

I've not read the article (as I can't read German and translations usually lose subtle details), but I presume they're talking mainly about qually, where you can use DRS at (almost) any part of the lap, so does enable you to have DRS open at dangerous points on the circuit. Still doesn't mean you have to use it there though.

As for the races, the DRS zone is usually pretty much dead straight, so I don't see the issue, apart from perhaps by increased closing speeds.

The reason DRS was introduced was because of processional racing. I think the Pirelli tyres have been somewhat instrumental in aiding overtakes anyway, but IMHO DRS has proven helpful in avoiding processions, which isn't to say it hasn't made overtaking too easy at *some* circuits, but they do seem to be tuning the zones year on year so they are learning and improving it appears.

#90 peroa

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:58

Yeah it's about opening DRS in Q every time possible and the resulting instability of the car at some corners..
IMHO, it's a minor issue, I'd like to think that the drivers don't like it because it's just to artificial.

#91 TomNokoe

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 13:17

I've always thought that they should use KERS instead of DRS. I.e Car behind gets KERS, other car doesn't.