70 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

Can anyone confirm the date of the December 1968 Winton meeting? I have the edition of RCN with the report but it doesn't mention the date.

It was the first time the John Cierpicki/Ken Cox Cooper-Ford 289 raced; a Cooper T53 of disputed origins.

[David McKinney]

If you had the previous issue you would obviously have looked at the Coming Events list? The other possibility is in one of the specialist columns in the same issue as reports the meeting

[Allen Brown]

If you had the previous issue you would obviously have looked at the Coming Events list? The other possibility is in one of the specialist columns in the same issue as reports the meeting

I do have Dec 1968 (these RCNs were once owned by a London-based Kiwi of great generosity) but it doesn't have a calendar. Or if it does, I can't see it for looking.

[Ray Bell]

As the resident RCN specialist, I guess I should weigh in here...

Either the December 1967 or January 1968 issue will have the calendar for the year. This will be (or should...) referred to in the contents listing at the front of the magazine (P4) along with things like Blowbacks, Classifieds etc. If it's not listed, still go through the magazines as it should be there. Typically it will be after Bits & Pieces and possibly Blowbacks.

Then there's another possibility, if you look at the previous Winton report (October, quite likely) there may be a tag at the end of the report, "Next Winton Meeting is ....."

I didn't know this car was in dispute, but there's always a chance with stuff that was essentially worthless once the Climax engine came out.

[wagons46]

Can anyone confirm the date of the December 1968 Winton meeting? I have the edition of RCN with the report but it doesn't mention the date. .

RCN January 68 had the "Official 1968 Calendar" and nominates December 1 as the Winton meet, together with Warwick Farm and Baskerville.

[Allen Brown]

Thank you both for this.

To answer Ray's question about the disputed history, I should first say that Alan Bannister has researched his car in detail and I have no reason to doubt that his conclusion that it is an ex-Yeoman Credit car. My problem is that when Ken Cox bought his Cooper lowline in order to fit a Holden engine (c1966), it was said to be the ex-Moss F1-7-61 but when the ex-Ken Cox Cooper - by now with a Ford 289 in it - was bought from John Cierpicki (c1970), it was said to be the ex-YC F1-4-61. So something's gone wrong here. Either it wasn't F1-7-61 that Ken Cox bought, or it wasn't F1-4-61 that Cierpicki sold, or there were two Ken Cox Coopers. The Bob Punch libre car which ran at the same time as Cox's and was also a lowline and advertised as ex-YC may be mixed up in all this.

It's been on my to-do list for nearly 30 years and it really is time to get it sorted out. These libre race results might help.

Allen

[David McKinney]

I believe Ken Cox raced F1-7-61 from 1966 to 1969, except 1968, when he drove Ken Cierpicki's F1-4-61

Does that help?

[Ray Bell]

The lineage of these cars is not my bag, but AFAIK the Cox Cooper (once or twice driven most aggressively by Bryan Thomson?) went to Bob Minogue and then to Des Lascelles.

As such, it became the only 2.5-litre F1 car to run as a F5000 (Warwick Farm, 1972) in a F5000 race in Australia. I think that's right, and I think I also have a colour slide of it somewhere at that meeting. It was painted a lime green colour with a purple stripe following the Bowmaker-type pattern, it actually looked pretty good and had a fair bit of glistening chrome about it.

It was, thus, one of only four cars to run a Ford engine in F5000 in Australia... at least that I can think of:

Don Fraser's Cicada
Des Lascelles' Cooper
Stan Keen's Elfin
David Walker/Chris Amon/John Cannon Lotus

And Allen, I'm pretty sure it's 'Banister', not 'Bannister'. Let me know if I'm wrong and I'll delete this line.

[David McKinney]

The lineage of these cars is not my bag, but AFAIK the Cox Cooper (once or twice driven most aggressively by Bryan Thomson?) went to Bob Minogue and then to Des Lascelles.

I think the ex-Thomson car, when it got its non-Climax engine, was raced by Fred Wheelhouse and Wayne Ford with Holden power, though that of course was a T51 (high-line), not a T53(low-line). Unless you're saying Thomson borrowed the later Cox car. Or one of them...

Minogue and Lascelles raced the ex-Cierpicki/Cox T53 with a Ford V8 replacing the Holden engine

Cox ran his own T53 with Ford V8 engine in 1969, having previously used a Holden, but as I've also got Minogue's name (with a question-mark) alongside that car, I'm wondering if that's where some of the confusion lies

[Ray Bell]

I think you're referring to the Cooper owned by Thomson there, David, the one that was fitted with a supercharged Climax (which later went into the Mallala?)?

I'm talking about him racing one of the Cooper-Fords, or maybe one of the Cooper-Holdens...

[Lee Nicolle]

The lineage of these cars is not my bag, but AFAIK the Cox Cooper (once or twice driven most aggressively by Bryan Thomson?) went to Bob Minogue and then to Des Lascelles.

As such, it became the only 2.5-litre F1 car to run as a F5000 (Warwick Farm, 1972) in a F5000 race in Australia. I think that's right, and I think I also have a colour slide of it somewhere at that meeting. It was painted a lime green colour with a purple stripe following the Bowmaker-type pattern, it actually looked pretty good and had a fair bit of glistening chrome about it.

It was, thus, one of only four cars to run a Ford engine in F5000 in Australia... at least that I can think of:

Don Fraser's Cicada
Des Lascelles' Cooper
Stan Keen's Elfin
David Walker/Chris Amon/John Cannon Lotus

And Allen, I'm pretty sure it's 'Banister', not 'Bannister'. Let me know if I'm wrong and I'll delete this line.

Did DGs Cicada use a Ford? It used a Chev when Steven was driving it.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, Don's Cicada had a Ford in it...

Stephen put in a Chev engine he had in a boat.

[Lee Nicolle]

Yes, Don's Cicada had a Ford in it...

Stephen put in a Chev engine he had in a boat.

I believe John Goss also used a Ford fleetingly in one of his cars. I have seen reports of that on the 5000 thread.

[john medley]

I dont know if this helps, but......
The Thompson supercharged car was a T51, the Lascelles green/green T53 he put in a ditch at Amaroo hillclimb came to NSW with Bob Minogue painted red and black(I recall watching BM racing it at Amaroo), perhaps still owned by Ken Cox. I know I discussed with Geoff McGrath the idea of buying it, GMcG preparing and JM racing it as an early 5000-- probably in 1972. I have always believed this T53 became Alan Banister's. John Dalton, whose nephew was a TNFer, may have had a hand in that T51.
Possible sources still around include Bob Minogue, Stumpy Russell,Bryan Thompson, Bob Healey....

[ellrosso]

Yes, Goss had a 302 Ford in the Matich A53 near the end of his ownership.

[Allen Brown]

The Thompson supercharged car was the ex-McKay/Stillwell T51 F2-14-59 and this car went to Fred Wheelhouse and was presumably the Cooper-Holden he was racing in 1967 and in early 1968. That car then went to Wayne Ford in mid-1968. I don't know when Wheelhouse first raced the Cooper-Holden because his early 1967 car was described as a "Frejay".

Blanden says Wheelhouse also acquired the ex-Austin Miller 283 ci Cooper-Corvette (T51 F2-20-59) around this time. Wheelhouse entered a 4660cc Cooper at Phillip Island 24 Nov 1968 alongside Wayne Ford in his former Cooper-Holden. 4660cc happens to be exactly 283 ci so I guess that's Wheelhouse in F2-20-59.

Going back to the T53s, Blanden says just what Ray and John have said here: that the Ken Cox Cooper-Ford 289 V8 went to Bob Minogue then to Des Lascelles and eventually to Alan Banister (whose name I misspelt earlier). But Blanden has Cox buying one T53 (F1-7-61 from Stan Jones' bankruptcy sale in 1966) yet selling a different one (Banister says his car is F1-4-61). Did Cox really race two different T53s, both with Holden engines?

Adding to the confusion is Bob Punch's Port Phillip Motors Cooper T53 that had a Holden engine in 1968 and then a Ford Falcon engine in 1969; and Max McPherson's Cooper-Holden which I know nothing about.

Anyone remember the Bob Punch car?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted byellrosso
Yes, Goss had a 302 Ford in the Matich A53 near the end of his ownership.

Shouldn't have forgotten that one, should I?

Goss did drive this car, fitted with the Cleveland 302-based Molloy Ford and a totally new nose with full-width wing, and dubbed it the A55.

First appearance was in practice at Sandown in 1978 for the Rothmans round, they had valve or valve seat trouble and put it away. Then it was turned out for the Oran Park round at the other end of the series, Goss tried hard to make it competitive and lapped in something like 1:07.8, but that wasn't competitive enough and he pulled out the Repco-engined car at the end of the day and did a lap in the sixes to put himself three rows further forward on the grid.

Sorry, Allen, this is all an aside you probably don't need.

[Lola5000]

Can anyone confirm the date of the December 1968 Winton meeting? I have the edition of RCN with the report but it doesn't mention the date.

It was the first time the John Cierpicki/Ken Cox Cooper-Ford 289 raced; a Cooper T53 of disputed origins.

Allen ,I can ask Minogue if you like about the Cooper.

[Allen Brown]

Allen ,I can ask Minogue if you like about the Cooper.

Yes please Rob. I'd be interested to know if he bought it from Cox directly and where John Cierpicki fitted in. And whether Cox had more than one Cooper-Holden to his knowledge.

Are Ken Cox and Bob Punch still around?

[Lola5000]

Yes please Rob. I'd be interested to know if he bought it from Cox directly and where John Cierpicki fitted in. And whether Cox had more than one Cooper-Holden to his knowledge.

Are Ken Cox and Bob Punch still around?

Years ago i had dinner in a Chinese dinner with I think Ken Cox,will send you a PM with Bobs email,as I'm sure he can offer a lot re 5 litre cars and the historic years,as he got it going with the Lola T430.

[Allen Brown]

Years ago i had dinner in a Chinese dinner with I think Ken Cox,will send you a PM with Bobs email,as I'm sure he can offer a lot re 5 litre cars and the historic years,as he got it going with the Lola T430.

Thanks Rob - I've sent him an email.

[Ray Bell]

If my memory's holding up, Ken Cox died in the seventies...

Once again, Thommo is a part of the recollection. As he was dying, Ken gave Bryan a drive at Winton in his Farrell and the super-forceful Thommo demolished the field.

[john medley]

Ken Cox deceased

[Allen Brown]

How about Bob Punch? Is he still alive?

[Ray Bell]

Who would know?

He's from Melbourne, of course. Brian Shead, Brian Sampson, Bob Minogue, Chris Hocking?

[ron simmonds]

I have been in touch with David Fogg, who was a personal friend of Ken Cox, and David has said he will put some info on this forum when he joins up to this site. David is a life member of the Benalla Auto Club, and the author of a very interesting book called" Foggy Memories"which covers his interesting life in business and motor sport. Cheers Ron.

[Lola5000]

I have been in touch with David Fogg, who was a personal friend of Ken Cox, and David has said he will put some info on this forum when he joins up to this site. David is a life member of the Benalla Auto Club, and the author of a very interesting book called" Foggy Memories"which covers his interesting life in business and motor sport. Cheers Ron.

Nice man,please give David my regards ,Rob Bailey.

[ron simmonds]

Will do Rob. Spoke to Foggy and he is on the case. Cheers Simmo.

[davidfoggfortytwo]

[quote name='ron simmonds' date='Jun 22 2012, 06:38' post='5781155']
Will do Rob. Spoke to Foggy and he is on the case.
Many thanks to Ron Simmonds and Rob Bailey for their kind comments. The December meeting at Winton 1n 1968 was held on the 30th November and the 1st of December. I have a copy of the Programme and was assista nt Clerk of course at the meeting. The Ken cox Lowline Cooper was owned by Johny Cierapicki , a huge strong man who felled trees for a living. To the best of my knowledge this car was ex Roy Salvadori which could be confirmed by Kens son Wayne with whom I am still in touch. There is an extensive article in a magazine titled Motor Racing Australia ( pages 64-66 ) written by Ray Bell who I assume is the same Ray Bell who is a regular on this forum and if so should have a copy which he could date. I have a copy. At the time of that meeting the Cooper held the lap record for over 1500cc Racing Cars. In relation to the Bob Punch Cooper it was not a Lowline but a Cooper Bristol fitted with a Ford Falcon engine. Hope this information helps.

[Ray Bell]

David, what car is this article you mention about?

I don't recall writing an article about a Cooper of this type at all.

Those issues of MRA have an issue number rather than a date on them, if you can give me that number I'll see what I can find.

[Allen Brown]

Many thanks to Ron Simmonds and Rob Bailey for their kind comments. The December meeting at Winton 1n 1968 was held on the 30th November and the 1st of December. I have a copy of the Programme and was assista nt Clerk of course at the meeting. The Ken cox Lowline Cooper was owned by Johny Cierapicki , a huge strong man who felled trees for a living. To the best of my knowledge this car was ex Roy Salvadori which could be confirmed by Kens son Wayne with whom I am still in touch. There is an extensive article in a magazine titled Motor Racing Australia ( pages 64-66 ) written by Ray Bell who I assume is the same Ray Bell who is a regular on this forum and if so should have a copy which he could date. I have a copy. At the time of that meeting the Cooper held the lap record for over 1500cc Racing Cars. In relation to the Bob Punch Cooper it was not a Lowline but a Cooper Bristol fitted with a Ford Falcon engine. Hope this information helps.

Hello David

Firstly, thanks very much for your post. Could you confirm with Wayne whether this car was indeed the ex-Salvadori car or the ex-Moss car (which is what John Blanden's book suggests it was)? I'd also be very interested to know if Ken Cox had more than one Cooper of that style. Blanden says he raced both the ex-Salvadori lowline Cooper and the ex-Moss lowline Cooper which I assume is a mistake.

Also, could I get a scan of the entry list from that Winton programme you have? It may give engine capacities for that car and for other interesting libre cars from that time.

[Ray Bell]

Here's the story to which he refers, I had completely forgotten I wrote it! The story was finished on 29th September, 2001, I have undoubtedly spoken to Wayne Cox, Bob Minogue, Mick Ronke, Claude Morton and Jim Russell in putting this together.

Odd Jobs – Ken Cox’s Cooper Ford V8

As the argument raged about whether Australia should adopt F5000 or a 2-litre Formula, a backyard conversion in Northern Victoria already had a V8 monoposto on the circuits.

KEN COX, it could be said, was larger than life. Historic racer and long-time ‘outlaw’ racer, Terry Cornelius remembers the Benalla-based driver as an inveterate competitor, who always raced in a white tee-shirt, bare arms twirling the wheel.

He raced at speedways, on dirt tracks and bitumen from the forties onwards, driving whatever anyone would put under him, and giving his all in ever one of them. “You knew if Ken he would drive it like a demon,” Terry says.

One of his main benefactors was timbergetter John Cierpicki, more of a ‘chopper’ than Ken Tyrrell and a contemporary in running a Cooper in the sixties. John had no family and a successful business, so when an auction was held to liquidate assets of a Stan Jones business and the assets included a Lowline Cooper, John outbid all others to satisfy his passion for racing.

Mick Ronke, now the man behind Winton, was the son of the tow-car driver in this team. “I remember going and getting the car from a disused chook shed in Camberwell,” he told MRA, “it was the car that Roy Salvadori had raced and John bought it without an engine.”

This came about just as the ‘red motor’ was released for Holdens, and there was collaboration with Norm Beechey’s engine man, Jack Wilson, as a 179 was put together with the help of Kerry Luckins at Paul England’s workshop. Repeated blowups led to strengthening strips of steel being welded along the sides of the conrods.

“When the Holden was put in, there was one chassis tube that had to be cut,” recalls Wayne Cox, then just a youngster watching his father and his efforts. Ken Cox was in his early forties at this time. “When the Ford engine went in they were able to put that tube back in place.”

The car raced for a few years with the Holden engine, living through a near-disaster when Ken caught a bunch of Formula Vees in the narrow ‘neck’ of the back straight of Hume Weir and launched himself as he misjudged a desperate passing move trying to make up time in a handicap.

The car wasn’t badly damaged, but Ken was thrown out – minus his shoes – and very lucky to get away with it.
Not long afterwards the Ford V8 engine was to be installed.

It was an era of everpresent change. Suspension design made great strides as the sixties progressed, wings were to come on the scene, wheel widths rapidly grew as lower profile and ever-wider tyres became available and proved faster.

The car was to be transformed, but to retain vitually all the parts that came from that Camberwell chook shed.

Wheels were made up by somebody, just who is now forgotten, while somebody also made up an adaptor bellhousing. Claude Morton, a long time friend of Ken’s and Norm Beechey’s chief mechanic, was given the job of bringing the Colotti gearbox up to scratch.

“The crownwheel and pinion were looking a bit sad,” Claude told us, “so I was given the job of setting up a new pair.”

The engine was a 289 at first. “It had reworked heads and a cam, and it used a 4-barrel carburetor.” Claude can’t remember what type of carby was used. The exhausts were made up at Alan King’s panel beating shop over a dozen VBs.

The car was ready to race with a fairly hefty amount of torque at its disposal to help it pull out of some of the slow corners on the tight circuits of Hume Weir and Winton. It was also to race at Calder and Phillip Island
Later a 302 bottom end was fitted, and then came a mismatched installation of 351 heads. It seems that the Cleveland and Windsor engines have different water passages, so a session with an electric welder was to fill in the unwanted gaps in the heads. Keeping them hot to avoid cracking was the job of a pot-belly stove.

The car’s first appearance was at Winton on December 16, 1968. It had been about ten months since it had blown up its last Holden engine at Hume Weir, but now it was to come to a minor kind of prominence at a time when the argument was raging about whether or not Australia should adopt F5000. The Cooper, it could be argued, was ready.

It was also an era in which racing was become increasing modern, but this was not so apparent on the country circuits in Victoria, though some modern cars were filtering through.

The first race brought a win, too, with an electrical fault spoiling a third spot in the main event. Hume Weir a fortnight later saw instant stardom as the duo led the master of the monoposto races of that era, Peter Macrow, from the start of each of their clashes. Second places and a class lap record was the outcome.

Calder brought a DNF in January and a crash in March, but along with that came a stirring battle with Peter Larner in the Brabham 1100 and another class record. Winton’s over 3000cc record also fell in March and another ding-dong with Larner, along with another win.

So the scene was set for a string of David and Goliath battles with smaller cars. Mostly they were twin-cams in the F2 mould, Macrow, Bob Minogue and David Collins among them.

Back from crash repairs in May, the Winton record fell again and he split Macrow and Collins, while the June Hume Weir saw him a crowd-pleaser with his through-the-field run to second place, September’s as a part-time leader in the Riverina Gold Cup dicing with Minogue until a hose blew off.

It seems that this was when the engine change took place, for they were missing for a couple of meetings before turning out at the March Winton in 1970. But more trouble struck, this time in the form of officialdom, with Ken ruled out of the meeting for a minor infringement between the pits and the circuit as he headed out for practice.
Bryan Thomson was roped in to start from the rear of the grid, doing a fine job in the main event to be up challenging for second place when both halfshafts broke.

The had it together again a few weeks later at Hume Weir and Ken effectively gave Bob Minogue a terrible time as Tony Stewart ran away in front of them in the main event. When the Cooper had to slow (probably with overheating), Minogue almost won this race as Stewart also slowed.

By this time, of course, F5000 had happened in Australia. Not that Ken was getting involved in any of that serious racing. He had stopped going to Calder, and he never took the car to Phillip Island, where the gearing was probably too limiting with this big engine.

Another car had been fitted with a V8 by Ern Abbott, the Brabham formerly raced by Kevin Bartlett, and it turned up at Winton in May to be seen to be no match for the well-tried Cooper and its energetic driver. A win in the minor race from Bob Punch’s Elfin was followed by mechanical ills that kept the car from the September Hume Weir, then at the November Winton he ran against such cars as Niel Allen’s Elfin ME5.

It seems that the little Benalla team felt it was time to move on. Bob Minogue was in the car by the March Winton and was to race it for a number of meetings before selling it to Des Lascelles.

So by the middle of 1972, a Cooper whose heritage dated back to 1961 at least, and which had been very much unmodified along the way with the exception of the engine and the wheels, was in a land very foreign to its native country Victoria as Lascelles put in an entry for the F5000 race at Warwick Farm in September.

The car looked the part, except when it was seen alongside the other competitors. Big wings, huge wheels and slicks, the modern monocoque chassis of the Lola T300 and even the ‘older’ cars like Warwick Brown’s McLaren M10B.

Needless to say, it was outclassed by a large margin. But it was an enigma, not noticed at the time. The last racing car owned by Stan Jones, a car from the Jack Brabham Cooper era, it was at the end of its road.

One who drove it was Jim ‘Stumpy’ Russell, who did some practice laps at Hume Weir. “It was terrible to drive,” he says. “The gearchange was back to front, Ken used to just stick it in a gear and drive it!”

Russell’s efforts in the car brought Cox’s ire too, for he took a line out of Scrub Corner the same as he normally did in his own car, crossing the kerb as he went. This bent the front upright on the car and had Cox very upset.

When Minogue bought the car he first of all had to fix the overheating caused by the mismatched heads. Once this was overcome he found it to be an ill-handling beast (this comment from an Elfin Mono driver!). “It was like getting a F5000 and taking the wings off and fitting hard old rubber,” he said.

“The worst thing about it was the gearbox, you had to be really careful with that. It wasn’t built to take that kind of torque,” Bob added. Indeed, reports frequently mention Cox starting slowly, as if he was treating the Colotti kindly in deference to its shortcomings.

So why, after having raced a more modern car against it, and having found it to be very ‘wide’ on those narrow circuits, did he buy the beast? “Well, it would have to be a challenge!”

No doubt this car is now a totally-refurbished Cooper Climax in some expensive collection. No doubt very few will ever look at it, narrow Cooper wheels, sand-cast Webers and that lumpy Coventry Climax 2.5 engine glistening below bright lights and realise its rugged past.

The world of the racing car is indeed strange. From the International grid to a liqidator’s chookshed, a few years being tossed around by some of the real daredevils of the sport and tended by enthusiasts who never saw a world title race in their lives. From anonymity to the specialist rebuilders to become prettier than new again.

But if anyone was looking at this car to see what a Formula 5000 should be, to know what those cars would do when they arrived, they were deluding themselves. When this car ran with the real ones it was truly and oddjob.

Ray Bell

Wayne Cox (son) or his sister may have photos, I can give you phone numbers but they are ten years old.

Pics are in RCN:
Jan 69 p64
July 69 P35
Nov 69 P 64
May 1970 P35
Thomson pic April 70 P49

[Ray Bell]

Further...

Adrian Ryan writes of that December 1968 Winton meeting:

Local star Ken Cox had done a beautiful job of slotting a 289 V8 into the Cooper chassis and shared third row with Bob Punch's Cooper Holden. There were seven other starters.

So Punch's car existed alongside of the Cox car.

Some time between May and September 1969 the Cox car changed colours. Perhaps this threw Blanden?

A keen eye will note that I have the Winton date as December 16, I have no idea why I've made that error, it was always scheduled for December 1 and it seems that this is the date on the programme.

[DanTra2858]

Ray thanks for a wonderfull history of one of Australia's Coopers, where is the car now & could you post some of the Photos so all may bask in the History of this car & the people that made it happen.

[Lola5000]

Is Claude Morton still alive?
So often I can remember him in the 80s in the old tow truck,sitting across from the start /finish line at the old Winton short track.

[wagons46]

Sadly I believe Claude left us in 2006.

[Lola5000]

Sadly I believe Claude left us in 2006.

In those years the VHRR had some great people ,many have passed on,some great times,lot of fun in those days at the historic meetings.

[Allen Brown]

That's a great story Ray! This establishes a very firm history of this car from Stan Jones in 1966 through to Des Lascelles in 1972. Alan Banister is positive that this Ken Cox car is the one he bought in 1978 and still owns today. He believes it to be an ex-Yeoman Credit car once driven by Salvadori which ties in with the F1-4-61 chassis number he uses for it.

However ... Blanden's histories state that Stan Jones had bought a different lowline: the ex-Moss F1-7-61 which Gardner had crashed at Sandown Park in March 1963 and which had been stored at Ray Gibbs' place before Gibbs rebuilt it with "a frame of unknown origin". As Gibbs was also storing the ex-Salvadori F1-4-61 that Salvadori had crashed very heavily at Warwick Farm in Feb 1962, I'm now wondering if these two effectively became one and that the Yeoman Credit features Banister has found on his car are due to the ex-Moss car being rebuilt using the frame of the ex-Salvadori car. Anyone still with me here?

Ray Gibbs would have been skilled enough to create a second car out of everything that was left. Which brings me to the Bob Punch car. This was described when when advertised by Punch's Port Phillip Motors (Hampton, Victoria) in Racing Car News Oct 1967 as a "Lowline Cooper 1963", "ex-Yeoman Credit car" less engine having "done 1 season only". The timing is consistent with Gibbs completing it about a year after Ciepicki bought the Stan Jones car but I'm speculating; it could have entirely different origins of course.

Punch raced this car in 1968 with a 2990cc Holden engine and then in 1969 with a Ford Falcon engine before advertising it in early 1970. I don't know what became of it but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the car in the Lukey Museum in the late 1970s which was bought by Art Valdez in the early 1980s. Keith Sparks did the rebuild; anyone have any knowledge of this car?

And, sorry to ask again, but is Bob Punch still alive?

Edited by Allen Brown, 30 June 2012 - 08:59.

[austmcreg]

That's a great story Ray! This establishes a very firm history of this car from Stan Jones in 1966 through to Des Lascelles in 1972. Alan Banister is positive that this Ken Cox car is the one he bought in 1978 and still owns today. He believes it to be an ex-Yeoman Credit car once driven by Salvadori which ties in with the F1-4-61 chassis number he uses for it.

However ... Blanden's histories state that Stan Jones had bought a different lowline: the ex-Moss F1-7-61 which Gardner had crashed at Sandown Park in March 1963 and which had been stored at Ray Gibbs' place before Gibbs rebuilt it with "a frame of unknown origin". As Gibbs was also storing the ex-Salvadori F1-4-61 that Salvadori had crashed very heavily at Warwick Farm in Feb 1962, I'm now wondering if these two effectively became one and that the Yeoman Credit features Banister has found on his car are due to the ex-Moss car being rebuilt using the frame of the ex-Salvadori car. Anyone still with me here?

Ray Gibbs would have been skilled enough to create a second car out of everything that was left. Which brings me to the Bob Punch car. This was described when when advertised by Punch's Port Phillip Motors (Hampton, Victoria) in Racing Car News Oct 1967 as a "Lowline Cooper 1963", "ex-Yeoman Credit car" less engine having "done 1 season only". The timing is consistent with Gibbs completing it about a year after Ciepicki bought the Stan Jones car but I'm speculating; it could have entirely different origins of course.

Punch raced this car in 1968 with a 2990cc Holden engine and then in 1969 with a Ford Falcon engine before advertising it in early 1970. I don't know what became of it but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the car in the Lukey Museum in the late 1970s which was bought by Art Valdez in the early 1980s. Keith Sparks did the rebuild; anyone have any knowledge of this car?

And, sorry to ask again, but is Bob Punch still alive?

This has been covered on at least one other thread (Tasmanian Coopers), but as I understand it, the Bob Punch Cooper was not a Type 53, but one of the later Yeoman Credit 'Special' cars (Blanden calls it a Type 56 but I cannot vouch for that).
It was raced in Victoria with Falcon 6 cylinder engine, then in 1970 sold to Vic Butler in Tasmania who continued to race it with Falcon engine, There is more than one photo of Butler in the car in this form on Lindsay Ross' Old Race Photos website.

The car was then sold to Mick Cooper, who fitted a Datsun engine and raced it in Tasmania in mid 1970s. I posted a photo of it in this form in the Tasmanian Coopers thread a year or so ago. Allen I can send you that photo if you need it.

According to Blanden (not always correct but I have no reason to doubt this one) it was then re-purchased in late 70s by the ever-present Ray Gibbs and and has been restored and sold to UK carrying (according to Blanden) the identifier YCF161.

So, the Bob Punch car has nothing to do with the Cooper T53s being discussed here.

Rob Saward

[David McKinney]

Bob Punch did have the ex-Yeoman Credit T56-based car I believe, Rob, and it did pass through Ray Gibbs's hands (more than once), but the dates I have for it don't fit with the T53 under discussion. Perhaps he had one of those as well...

[Ray Bell]

I'm going to have to find my photo of Lascelles in the car at the Farm...

It certainly was out of place among the MR5s, T300s, M10Bs, A50s and the sweet new P8 no matter how good it looked all painted and polished.

[Allen Brown]

Thanks very much for that Rob. I am inclined to believe what Blanden says about the import as he clearly saw the car in the mid-1960s when it arrived in the US. The date Blanden gives for it first racing is March 1968 which I can't contradict but Punch had already advertised it in Oct 1967 so I will keep looking. However, Blanden must have the timing of the Falcon engine wrong as Punch's car in April and November 1968 - and indeed at that 1 Dec 1978 Winton meeting that started this conversation - was a Cooper-Holden, not a Cooper-Ford.

I think the Falcon came in early 1969. Punch advertised the car in Feb 1970 which ties in with it going to Vic Butler in 1970, Blanden had it going to R. Gregson in Tasmania in 1969 which can't be right. Yes, I'd be very grateful for that picture of Mick Cooper racing it (allen@oldracingcars.com).

Although a T53 and a T56 look quite similar, the dimensions are quite different aren't they? Presumably fitting a Chev V8 and later a Ford Falcon V8 to a FJ chassis is quite a feat.

David - do you know who had it in the UK post Harper?

[David McKinney]

David - do you know who had it in the UK post Harper?

Not sure, Allen

I don't keep up with movements as carefully as I used to...

[davidfoggfortytwo]

[quote name='Ray Bell' date='Jun 27 2012, 09:11' post='5794783']
David, what car is this article you mention about?

I don't recall writing an article about a Cooper of this type at all.

Those issues of MRA have an issue number rather than a date on them, if you can give me that number I'll see what I can find.

Hello to Ray Bell. The article in question is under a heading " odd Jobs" then the actual heading is " Ken Cox's Cooper Ford V8". pages 64-66. Unfortunately I don't have the actual magazine but there is a full colour advertisement for Caltex Havoline Racing showing the winner of the Honda Indy 300 in 2001 which may enable you track it down. It is definately signed off by Ray Bell. Hope this helps.

[davidfoggfortytwo]

Thanks very much for that Rob. I am inclined to believe what Blanden says about the import as he clearly saw the car in the mid-1960s when it arrived in the US. The date Blanden gives for it first racing is March 1968 which I can't contradict but Punch had already advertised it in Oct 1967 so I will keep looking. However, Blanden must have the timing of the Falcon engine wrong as Punch's car in April and November 1968 - and indeed at that 1 Dec 1978 Winton meeting that started this conversation - was a Cooper-Holden, not a Cooper-Ford.

I think the Falcon came in early 1969. Punch advertised the car in Feb 1970 which ties in with it going to Vic Butler in 1970, Blanden had it going to R. Gregson in Tasmania in 1969 which can't be right. Yes, I'd be very grateful for that picture of Mick Cooper racing it (allen@oldracingcars.com).

Although a T53 and a T56 look quite similar, the dimensions are quite different aren't they? Presumably fitting a Chev V8 and later a Ford Falcon V8 to a FJ chassis is quite a feat.

David - do you know who had it in the UK post Harper?

Sorry Allen can't help you there.

[davidfoggfortytwo]

Hello David

Firstly, thanks very much for your post. Could you confirm with Wayne whether this car was indeed the ex-Salvadori car or the ex-Moss car (which is what John Blanden's book suggests it was)? I'd also be very interested to know if Ken Cox had more than one Cooper of that style. Blanden says he raced both the ex-Salvadori lowline Cooper and the ex-Moss lowline Cooper which I assume is a mistake.

Also, could I get a scan of the entry list from that Winton programme you have? It may give engine capacities for that car and for other interesting libre cars from that time.

Hello Allen,
Ken most certainly did not have two Cooper Lowlines or similar cars but ran a Cooper Bristol which was Holden powered prior to the Lowline. I will talk to Wayne as soon as possible and seek confirmation that this was the Salvadori car.
Am happy to scan or copy the Winton Programme for you. How do I get it to you?

[Terry Walker]

Hi there David Fogg-- fancy meeting you here. Terry Walker (old mate of Norm Pola's, ex AHOC/LCC)

[Allen Brown]

Am happy to scan or copy the Winton Programme for you. How do I get it to you?

Could you send a scan to allen@oldracingcars.com?

Many thanks

[davidfoggfortytwo]

Hi there David Fogg-- fancy meeting you here. Terry Walker (old mate of Norm Pola's, ex AHOC/LCC)

Hello there " Fast Tracks " Terry Walker long time no talk. Last meeting at AHOC/LCC re-union. Fond memories of dear old Norm. Am to re-marry on 4th Aug and Graham Diffen is coming over.
Kind Regards
David

[davidfoggfortytwo]

Could you send a scan to allen@oldracingcars.com?

Many thanks

Will do Allen.