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1966 Jaguar XJ13 - the project continues...


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#1 Nev

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:12

I'm still here! Beavering away in the background on my own project and I thought some of you might be interested to see progress so far? Here's a couple of videos.

As you may know, my aim is to exactly recreate the XJ13 as it was in 1966 and before it was rebuilt following its crash in 1971. The dream is to see it carry on where Jaguar left off and see it on a track with the GT40s, Ferraris etc. There is still an enormous amount to do but here's the first two videos of its build. A lot has happened since I took these videos and as soon as I can make time and get my a**e in gear I will continue the series.

Part One

Part Two

One of the "problems" of using modern CAD/CAM/laser-cutting etc is that a replica can end up being truer to the original plans/dimensions than a 1960s hand-made original can be. However I don't plan to introduce any assymetry of the one-and-only original! The original was at JD Classics recently and Jaguar Heritage presumably gave permission for it to be measured to help with a new post-1973 body for the "Walter Hill" replica they have there (a bit strange when Jaguar Heritage have always asserted they will never allow for this to happen). It seems the "original" differs right-to-left by as much as an inch in some dimensions. Think I'll stick with Sayer's original 1966 version!

The monocoque you see in the video is the first all-steel "trial" version. Once we are happy all is as it should be we will set it aside and make the aluminium/steel final version. While this is going on, the body outer surfaces are being fabricated in original-spec aluminium so they can be fitted to the "trial monocoque" just to verify all is as it should be.

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#2 kayemod

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:15

One of the "problems" of using modern CAD/CAM/laser-cutting etc is that a replica can end up being truer to the original plans/dimensions than a 1960s hand-made original can be. However I don't plan to introduce any assymetry of the one-and-only original! The original was at JD Classics recently and Jaguar Heritage presumably gave permission for it to be measured to help with a new post-1973 body for the "Walter Hill" replica they have there (a bit strange when Jaguar Heritage have always asserted they will never allow for this to happen). It seems the "original" differs right-to-left by as much as an inch in some dimensions. Think I'll stick with Sayer's original 1966 version!



Yes, that's something I've come across as well. As you say, modern CAD/CAM has made everything a lot easier, but it's quite surprising how asymmetric some vehicles turned out to be years ago, and that's not just one-offs from small producers either, even outfits like Ford and BL weren't immune. This is going back to the 70s, but at Specialised Mouldings we always reckoned that we'd done a more accurate job on cars like the Chevron B16 or Lola T70 than Ford were able to manage on their Capri and Cortina or BL on their TR7, both of which we'd done panels for. We did fibreglass bonnets and boot lid spoilers for a special edition Fords, and some entire bodies for early TR7s, things like side creases and bonnet bulges were significantly different from one side to the other. No idea if they ever corrected it, but the door on one side of a 70s Capri was about half an inch longer than the other, so it didn't just happen on exotic stuff like the XJ13.


#3 Geoff E

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 12:58

The Renault 6TL had the right rear wheeel 2.5 inches further back than the one on the left.

#4 kayemod

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 13:02

The Renault 6TL had the right rear wheeel 2.5 inches further back than the one on the left.


Wasn't that a conseeequence of a slightly odd reeear suspeeension layout?


#5 Geoff E

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 13:28

Wasn't that a conseeequence of a slightly odd reeear suspeeension layout?


Yeeees.;)


In the words of Autocar ... "Torsion bars are used throughout the Renault range, those at the front being longitudinal and those at the rear lateral. As you cannot run one torsion bar through another, Renault have adopted an eminently sensible solution - make one wheelbase longer than the other." ...


#6 millau

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 18:03

Thoroughly enjoyed the videos
Keep them coming
Geometry issues no surprise!!
M
:up:

#7 Jagjon

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 19:03

The Renault 6TL had the right rear wheeel 2.5 inches further back than the one on the left.


Amongst others the Renault 4 had wheelbase different on one side to the other, which caused some head scratching when we had one to repair the accident damage.
Regarding car bodies being different side to side, as a youngster I recall being told by one far more experienced, that the man wasn't born yet who could see both sides of a car at once! I can remember panels & doors being too large for the apartures they were meant to fit, Tr's Healeys Jaguars etc while Italian panels were another experience with excess metal or wings even arriving in 2 halves.
One aspect of restoring old cars to todays standards is that they loose that original look, panel fit & paint is often far too good.


#8 kayemod

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 19:34

One aspect of restoring old cars to todays standards is that they loose that original look, panel fit & paint is often far too good.


I've been particularly struck by this when looking at 1930s Mercedes and Auto Unions at the FoS. Paint finishes and panel fits are comparable to a present day Mercedes or Audi, and nothing like the cars originally appeared. Although these cars were beautifully engineered in their original form, Auto Union in particular didn't seem to put much effort into making them look pretty where it didn't really matter, a few aspects of old Auto Unions looked rather agricultural in their surface finish, though of course I'm going mainly on old photos here. Cars appearing at Goodwood look very different from that.


#9 Jagjon

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 19:52

I've been particularly struck by this when looking at 1930s Mercedes and Auto Unions at the FoS. Paint finishes and panel fits are comparable to a present day Mercedes or Audi, and nothing like the cars originally appeared. Although these cars were beautifully engineered in their original form, Auto Union in particular didn't seem to put much effort into making them look pretty where it didn't really matter, a few aspects of old Auto Unions looked rather agricultural in their surface finish, though of course I'm going mainly on old photos here. Cars appearing at Goodwood look very different from that.

I recall the pre war Mercedes that was at Donnington Collection, that car had atmosphere.
Maybe the problem is the people with the money to buy these old cars expect everything to look like their modern car, ie straight panels with perfect fit & paint.
I quite like to see older cars look as in "to be back in the day" if at all possible & presentable, at least some VSCC & Bugatti owners appreciate this.
I hate going to car shows & just see rows of cars that all look to be the same with hardly any original panels, paint or trim.
Something that seems to be missed, is once you restore any car with new this & that and especially new panels then you may as well build a replica or fake because you loose that old atmosphere & look of an original car.
You may as well go to a kit car show.
Mechanical condition being important it must be better to leave something to survive "as is" providing brake steering etc is safe.

#10 arttidesco

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 19:56

The Renault 6TL had the right rear wheeel 2.5 inches further back than the one on the left.


As did the Renault 3 & 4 for the same reasons :stoned:

#11 elansprint72

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 21:17

The Renault 6TL had the right rear wheeel 2.5 inches further back than the one on the left.


My '73 R5 was similar, however the designers were not completely stupid: they calculated that the average Gaul was about five feet tall and four feet around the middle (they did not have a metric tape-measure) so they designed-in which torsion bar should be at the front and which behind and the handling was therefore perfect (although the roll-angles could be lurid at times). Where it all went wrong was on the RHD versions, Mr average Rosbif customer being 6ft tall with a 32" waist; I was the bravest driver alive on right-handers but on left-handers circumcision was the name of the game. ;)

Edited by elansprint72, 18 June 2012 - 07:59.


#12 Nev

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:28

I was the bravest driver alive on right-handers but on left-handers circumcision was the name of the game.;)

Must have been a really tight fit in the cockpit for it to have made that much difference ....


#13 F1aero999

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 18:51

Nev,

Thats absolutely fascinating, I have been following your previous posts over the last few years. Thanks for taking the time to make the video and showing, please keep us updated on progress and good luck to a brave project.

F1aero.

#14 Nev

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 04:59

Thanks for the positive encouragement - need all I can get!

Thinking ahead a little, my BIG issue is that Appendix K of the FIA rulebook won't necessarily allow the car to race with the Big Boys. My dream/ambition is to carry on where Jaguar left off and see the car on track against the cars it was designed to compete with - GT40s, Ferrari 330 P3/P4, Chaparral etc. Although replicas are acceptable for the FIA, they need to be replicas of cars that actually raced in period. For this reason, even if Jaguar wanted to race the original (perhaps unlikely ...) they wouldn't be able to!

Are there any sympathetic MSA/FIA readers of this forum who may be able to offer some guidance/glimmer of hope? Anyone know of a "development car" (one that didn't actually race in period) that is currently racing in historics with a FIA HTP "Passport"? Are countries like the US/Australia a little more open-minded?

#15 Peter Morley

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 09:26

Thanks for the positive encouragement - need all I can get!

Thinking ahead a little, my BIG issue is that Appendix K of the FIA rulebook won't necessarily allow the car to race with the Big Boys. My dream/ambition is to carry on where Jaguar left off and see the car on track against the cars it was designed to compete with - GT40s, Ferrari 330 P3/P4, Chaparral etc. Although replicas are acceptable for the FIA, they need to be replicas of cars that actually raced in period. For this reason, even if Jaguar wanted to race the original (perhaps unlikely ...) they wouldn't be able to!

Are there any sympathetic MSA/FIA readers of this forum who may be able to offer some guidance/glimmer of hope? Anyone know of a "development car" (one that didn't actually race in period) that is currently racing in historics with a FIA HTP "Passport"? Are countries like the US/Australia a little more open-minded?


There are certainly some cars that have been raced in historics that were only tested in period - such as the 1960 Walker Climax F1 car, 1976 6 wheel March F1 and the 1954 Kieft V8 Climax F1 which was never finished in period.
You probably have far more documentation to show that your car is exactly like the original so it should be possible to get the papers - talking to someone like Marcus Pye (who is one of the appointed UK registrars for the period) is probably the way to go.

Given the time it can take for the papers to appear there is a tendency for race organisers to just ask that the papers have been applied for - no requirement that the car will definitely get them!

#16 elansprint72

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 12:30

Let's hope that Peter is correct; I think that everyone would love to see this car racing. :up:

#17 Option1

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 14:11

Let's hope that Peter is correct; I think that everyone would love to see this car racing. :up:

Definitely! :up:

Neil

#18 Garsted

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 17:42

Doesn't Lord March make his own rules for the Revival? 1966 just scrapes in.

Its a fascinating project, and I wish you every success in bringing it to the track. It would be intriguing to get an idea of how it may have fared had it ever been raced in period, but I think two things will prevent us ever knowing;
1) the competition (GT40s and the like) underwent intensive development at the time and have no doubt enjoyed quite a bit since, and
2) I am sure you will be unwilling to undertake any such development to your car. I can't imagine that the rear end of the XJ13 would have stayed like that for long when all the other cars sprouted Kamm tails and "spoilers" at the back and trim tabs etc (as on the P$s) at the front. Indeed the XJ13 was already looking a bit out of date in this regard when it appeared.

Never the less, its an inspiring car and project, all the best with it

Steve

Edited by Garsted, 19 June 2012 - 17:55.


#19 Nev

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 18:31

It would be intriguing to get an idea of how it may have fared had it ever been raced in period, but I think two things will prevent us ever knowing;
1) the competition (GT40s and the like) underwent intensive development at the time and have no doubt enjoyed quite a bit since, and
2) I am sure you will be unwilling to undertake any such development to your car. I can't imagine that the rear end of the XJ13 would have stayed like that for long when all the other cars sprouted Kamm tails and "spoilers" at the back and trim tabs etc (as on the P$s) at the front. Indeed the XJ13 was already looking a bit out of date in this regard when it appeared.
Steve


I agree Steve - we will probably never know. I am under no illusions. The finished car will not have had the benefit of the best part of 50 years exponential development and stands little or no chance of keeping station with today's historic racers no matter who is behind the wheel. Won't stop me trying though .....

Would the XJ13 have put up a good fight against Ford/Ferrari in the mid 1960s? That isn't a question my project can ever answer and is perhaps something that should remain as part of the "myth/legend".

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#20 Sharman

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 20:06

As did the Renault 3 & 4 for the same reasons :stoned:


As ex-chairman of a Renault Main Dealer I can add the 16 to those already mentioned

#21 Dutchy

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:13

on left-handers circumcision was the name of the game.;)
[/quote]

I wonder if you really meant that!

Edited by Dutchy, 22 June 2012 - 12:14.


#22 Nev

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 19:39

Crawled out from under my XJ13 long enough to post some stuff about shortening driveshafts, transaxles, Mike Kimberley and XJ13 development etc.

Jaguar XJ13 - Building the Legend

There are two previously unpublished Jaguar memos the historians amongst you may find interesting.

Anyone spot the loose tool tip in the video? No sniggering please(I was too busy pointing the camera to notice) :blush:

#23 Nev

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 11:35

Dare I publish another video to You Tube? Here it is anyway (lights blue touchpaper and retires to a safe distance) ;)

Building The Legend - Engine "Bits & Bobs"

The reason I used crap (non-copyright) music on my last Shackleton video was to keep on the right side of YouTube. Now that I have added less-crap (copyright) music the video isn't available in certain countries :well:

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#24 Glengavel

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 13:30

Dare I publish another video to You Tube? Here it is anyway (lights blue touchpaper and retires to a safe distance);)

Building The Legend - Engine "Bits & Bobs"

The reason I used crap (non-copyright) music on my last Shackleton video was to keep on the right side of YouTube. Now that I have added less-crap (copyright) music the video isn't available in certain countries :well:

Posted Image


I hope the use of Pink Floyd's 'On The Run' isn't a bad omen!

#25 Glengavel

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 13:32

Dare I publish another video to You Tube? Here it is anyway (lights blue touchpaper and retires to a safe distance);)


The reason I used crap (non-copyright) music on my last Shackleton video was to keep on the right side of YouTube. Now that I have added less-crap (copyright) music the video isn't available in certain countries :well:


I hope the use of Pink Floyd's 'On The Run' isn't a bad omen!

Edited by Glengavel, 15 March 2013 - 13:32.


#26 Nev

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 12:43

Even though the pics are a month old now I thought some of you might be interested in seeing the project so far:
 
http://www.xj13.eu/X...ake-shape-.aspx
 
july2013_monocoque_006.jpg

Edited by Nev, 02 February 2014 - 13:24.


#27 Nev

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 13:26

A short video showing progress to date.

http://tinyurl.com/qz4o3xy

Progressing slowly but steadily towards the dream of seeing the finished car squaring up to those mighty GT40s on a racetrack one day :)

I can dream can't I ??



#28 Tuboscocca

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 16:39

A short video showing progress to date.

http://tinyurl.com/qz4o3xy

Progressing slowly but steadily towards the dream of seeing the finished car squaring up to those mighty GT40s on a racetrack one day :)

I can dream can't I ??

Nev saw all 4 parts!  Very impressive!! (including the dog and Jethro Tull(?) in part1).

 

:up: :up: :up: Michael



#29 Tim Murray

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 18:33

These videos are fascinating, showing things I've never seen before, like putting the body buck together. More please, Nev.

Nev saw all 4 parts! Very impressive!! (including the dog and Jethro Tull(?) in part 1.

:up: :up: :up: Michael


The music is Focus (live) in both parts 1 and 2 - Sylvia, House of the King and Hocus Pocus.

#30 Tuboscocca

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 21:05

These videos are fascinating, showing things I've never seen before, like putting the body buck together. More please, Nev.


The music is Focus (live) in both parts 1 and 2 - Sylvia, House of the King and Hocus Pocus.

Sorry Tim..in the first part it reminded me on Jethro Tull  (appropriately for the time of XJ13!!), because of the flute--senior moment?? Thanks for explaining..

 

Michael



#31 Tim Murray

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 21:09

No apology necessary Michael - I haven't a clue what the jazz accompaniment to part 3 is.  :blush:



#32 Tuboscocca

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 22:51

No apology necessary Michael - I haven't a clue what the jazz accompaniment to part 3 is.  :blush:

Thanks Tim. It is now time for Nev to explain the used music , instead to show mostly elderly people who waste their time to beat  panels or playing with timber or to show us a barking dog??? :stoned:

 

Michael



#33 arttidesco

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 23:59

Wow ! Must be very satisfying seeing a dream like this come together, look forward to to seeing your XJ 13 in action  :smoking: