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Oval racing in Europe?


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#51 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 13:34

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Google maps http://maps.google.c...r...077162&z=14


To paraphrase Crocodile Dundee... "That's an oval!"

The only oval track to feature an actual village on the infield?

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#52 AAGR

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 13:39

To paraphrase Crocodile Dundee... "That's an oval!"

The only oval track to feature an actual village on the infield?


They do say that in 1945, when the Allies finally reached that part of Europe, they established several 'new' lap records in Jeeps, and captured German Mercedes-Benz staff cars. THE MOTOR made much of this at the time ....



#53 Flat Black 84

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 14:28

Lots of 1/4 mile dirt oval tracks in Australia & New Zealand


With the prominent sprint car presence in OZ and NZ, I get the sense that the racing scene there is somewhat similar to what we've got in the States.

#54 Flat Black 84

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 14:31

A bit off my own topic, but what was the longest "oval" ever used for racing?

#55 kayemod

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 15:13

A bit off my own topic, but what was the longest "oval" ever used for racing?


Probably the M25, apologies if I've confused some of the non uk residents among us.


#56 Amphicar

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 15:28

A bit off my own topic, but what was the longest "oval" ever used for racing?

Not exactly racing but in August 1987 AJ Foyt in the March 84C-based Oldsmobile Aerotech set an unofficial closed course record (257.123 mph) on a 7.7 mile oval at Goodyear's Fort Stockton test track in Texas:

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#57 r.atlos

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 15:38

Incidentally, why is the shorter layout at Brands Hatch called the Indy Circuit? It isn't an oval nor does it (to me) seem to resemble the Brickyard very much. Is it perhaps because it was the layout used when the USAC cars raced at Brands in 1978? Was that layout called something else before Rick Mears and his buddies came-a-calling?

The Indy circuit at Brands Hatch was an oval at Clearways used for Spedeworth racing since about 1968. It should not be confused with the "short" circuit which is, in fact, called "Club Circuit".

#58 kayemod

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 16:05

Cars raced at Hockenheim as early as 1938. The circuit was described as a shortened version of the course used for motorcycle racing (since 1932), so I don't know if the car circuit would have been oval...


The Hockenheimring's original name, at least until 1947 was the Kurpfalzring, according to Wiki it originally followed the line of some forest roads, which was probably why it was only considered suitable for motorcycle racing, at least initially. I'd be most interested to see the original layout, does anyone have anything? I tried Google, and all it seemed to have was a fairly modern giratory system in nearby Heidelberg with the same name.


#59 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 16:10

Darren has the pre-war track on his database - scroll to the bottom of the page:

http://www.silhouet....s/hockenhe.html

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#60 Jim Thurman

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 16:13

There was also the matter of less cheaply-available timber(required in massive quantities) and of course the damper climate in northern Europe is less kind on untreated timber.

Good point. Unfortunately, many of the builders/operators in the U.S. soon discovered the weather wasn't as good as they'd hoped either.

Good job on the website. Thanks for compiling the defunct ovals in the UK and Continent. I dub thee "The Allan E. Brown of the UK."

#61 alansart

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 16:13



Post deleted :)

Edited by alansart, 21 June 2012 - 09:50.


#62 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 16:27

I think that's the later layout, Alan. Check out the link posted by Spaceframe in post 49:

http://www.the-fastl...many/index.html

Click on Hockenheim > 1932-1937.

#63 Flat Black 84

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 16:35

Good point. Unfortunately, many of the builders/operators in the U.S. soon discovered the weather wasn't as good as they'd hoped either.

Good job on the website. Thanks for compiling the defunct ovals in the UK and Continent. I dub thee "The Allan E. Brown of the UK."


Regardless of climate, board tracks were apt to be hazardous and frangible. Over time, the cars tended to pull up splinters and chunks of board and spit them into the faces of trailing drivers. And by the end of a lengthy race, the boards were chewed up and uneven. Belle Isle is a model of solidity by comparison.

#64 David McKinney

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 17:10

The Indy circuit at Brands Hatch was an oval at Clearways used for Spedeworth racing since about 1968. It should not be confused with the "short" circuit which is, in fact, called "Club Circuit".

The information in Post 39 is correct :)


#65 D-Type

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 18:59

The Indy circuit at Brands Hatch was an oval at Clearways used for Spedeworth racing since about 1968. It should not be confused with the "short" circuit which is, in fact, called "Club Circuit".

What a load of complete and utter tosh! The only element of truth in this posting is that Speedworth used the short Clearways oval .

Please check your facts before posting.

Edit: I see David answered first

Edited by D-Type, 20 June 2012 - 19:00.


#66 BRG

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 19:59

It turned out to be quite a procession, with only one real overtake in the whole race. Far too short & twisty a circuit.

Nobody seems to learn. The recent DTM race at Brands used the Indy circuit, for 95 laps I believe, with much the same result.

#67 john winfield

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 09:44

Nobody seems to learn. The recent DTM race at Brands used the Indy circuit, for 95 laps I believe, with much the same result.


I wonder then, if the proposed changes between Druids and South Bank are specifically aimed at making the short circuit more interesting, with easier overtaking, allowing Brands to host as many events in the 'bowl' as possible.

Not sure where this oval is, but it looks very tight. Has an interesting pits feature that Bernie might like to consider for Grand Prix racing.

http://www.ebay.co.u...8#ht_2447wt_799

#68 alansart

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 09:50

I think that's the later layout, Alan. Check out the link posted by Spaceframe in post 49:

http://www.the-fastl...many/index.html

Click on Hockenheim > 1932-1937.


Sorry about that. My Google Earth info was wrong :blush:


#69 wenoopy

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 11:31

I think that's the later layout, Alan. Check out the link posted by Spaceframe in post 49:

http://www.the-fastl...many/index.html

Click on Hockenheim > 1932-1937.


At http://www.circuitsofthepast.nl there is a much more detailed map/plan of the earlier circuits, together with pre 1950 photos and several paragraphs of description. The Western bend (referred to as the Sudkerve) looks to be a wide radius bend of about 120 deg. and there is also a slight kink at the Northern Autobahn crossing. More a pointy egg than an oval, perhaps.

Stu

#70 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 11:36

Lots of 1/4 mile dirt oval tracks in Australia & New Zealand

Where they race proper oval track cars.
Not 'bangers' though there still is some low dollar classes.

#71 arttidesco

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 11:57

It was named the "Indy Circuit" after the USAC Indycars came over in the 70's. Before that I think it was just called the "Short" or "Club" circuit.


1978 Rick Mears won :wave:

#72 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:20

When one thinks of oval racing in Europe, the first circuits that come to mind are the seven great autodromes of the pre-war era: Brooklands (opened in 1907), Opelbahn (1920), Monza (1922), Sitges (1923), Miramas (July 1924), Montlhéry (October 1924) and the lesser-known Fichtenhainbahn in Heide, Germany (1925).

All of these had banked turns, except Miramas, which, while being the longest-ever oval used for racing at 5.0 km (*), had flat turns (and later two chicanes as well).

(*) Although, without checking, there may have been some exhibition races on longer ovals normally used for testing in the US.

Of these seven, only Sitges and Montlhéry were also used post-war, although of course the Monza oval, originally torn down in 1938, was rebuilt with much steeper banking in 1955.

The wooden motordromes and board tracks, incidentally, were a strictly US phenomenon (1909-1931), with the exception of a motordrome in Toronto. I don't believe this was due to the European climate, however, but rather, I reckon there was simply no one like Jack Prince in Europe!

Of course, in addition to the great autodromes mentioned above, there has been plenty of oval racing through the decades on all kinds of venues in many European countries, ranging from around-the-barrels tracks in farmers fields, horse venues and grass courses, to cinder tracks, wooden and concrete velodromes, and American-style paved ovals. If you known where to look, you can find oval tracks of past and present everywhere.

The seven pre-war autodromes have two modern desendants, Rockingham Motor Speedway in the UK and the EuroSpeedway Lausitz (formerly the Lausitzring) in Germany, both built when Champ Car briefly expanded to Europe in the early 2000s.

I'm not sure why circuits like the Grenzlandring or Hockenheim are mentioned on this thread, as these have nothing to do with oval racing - in my view, these are road courses which happen to be oval-shaped (or oval-ish), which is something entirely different (but feel free to disagree). And vice versa, an oval doesn't have to be oval-shaped, of course...

But since Hockenheim came up and it seems to be of interest, here is a brief history of the time up to the 1960s rebuild:

The history of the Hockenheimring, today one of Germany's main permanent racing circuits, began in the early 1930s, when local motorsport enthusiast Ernst Christ conceived a course through the thick woods north-east of town. His plan was embraced by the mayor of Hockenheim, Philipp Klein, and the circuit was built in just over two months, from 23 March to 26 May 1932, essentially by expanding existing forest trails and linking these with a section of the main road between Walldorf and Oftersheim. The resulting 12.045 km Hockenheimer Dreieck, as the course was called, consisted of long straights through the woods, two sharp turns and several fast corners. The inaugural meeting, for solo motorcycles, took place three days after the conclusion of the construction works. Tom Bullus (NSU) and Herbert Kirchberg (DKW) both recorded a lap at 129 km/h average speed and thus shared the first lap record.

While the meeting was a great success, several shortcomings were quickly revealed. The circuit's narrow width barely sufficed for solo motorcycles and did not allow auto races, and the course was also rather dusty as it lacked a tarred surface. Both issues were later addressed, as the circuit was paved in 1935 and widened by one metre in 1936. The final meeting on the original layout was subsequently held in September 1937. Otto Ley (BMW) clocked a record-breaking race average of 154.9 km/h on that occasion, while fellow BMW-rider Karl Gall managed a new lap record at 158.8 km/h.

The circuit was then shortened to 7.725 km (sometimes also reported as 7.692 km) and widened to 7.5 metres between March and September 1938, thus bypassing the old section of public road while also making the course suitable for automobile races (there had previously only been a Mercedes-Benz demo run in August 1936). The new and improved layout was named Kurpfalzring and hosted its first race, the Kurpfalz-Rennen for motorcycles and sports cars, the following month. Less than a year later, Germany was at war, and so the meeting scheduled for October 1939 had to be cancelled. Mercedes-Benz did use the circuit for test runs in April of that year, in preparation for the Tripoli Grand Prix. Hans-Hugo Hartmann recorded an unofficial lap record at 196.8 km/h
on that occasion.

The high-speed circuit was renamed to Hockenheimring after the war, hosting races between May 1947 and September 1963. The only noteworthy change during that time came in 1954, when the circuit was widened to nine metres, while its two main curves, the Ostkurve and Stadtkurve, were banked at six degrees. The construction of a new motorway, which would cut off the southern half of the course, then necessitated a substantial rebuild in the years 1964-1965, and when the Hockenheimring reopened it had become a modern, fully permanent facility (...)



From my website www.wegcircuits.nl

#73 chdphd

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 13:04

1978 Rick Mears won :wave:

Sebastien Bourdais won the 2003 "London ChampCar Trophy" which also ran on the Indy circuit.

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http://www.chdphd.co...mp;GalleryID=22

http://en.wikipedia....hamp_Car_Trophy

#74 lustigson

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 14:07

Here's an oval in the Netherlands: http://goo.gl/maps/NFvp

#75 uechtel

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:24

I'm not sure why circuits like the Grenzlandring or Hockenheim are mentioned on this thread, as these have nothing to do with oval racing - in my view, these are road courses which happen to be oval-shaped (or oval-ish), which is something entirely different (but feel free to disagree). And vice versa, an oval doesn't have to be oval-shaped, of course...


I agree to you, Rob. In my opinion these were classified as "high-speed-circuits", like also Avus or Dessau, maybe also Reims. They were characterized by long "full throttle" passages, but could also have corners or even hairpins. Nevertheless, they were made "fitting" into the landscape. This is where I see the biggest difference to classic ovals (like Indy), which were of a more stadium-like character.


#76 D-Type

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:31

Avus is an oddball. It was originally built as a high speed circuit and later incorporated into an autobahn rather than the other way round. The corners were originally flat but the steeply banked North Curve and slightly banked (I think) South Curve were added later. Hence the unusual layout of the North Curve allows to allow the autobahn to bypass it.

#77 Jim Thurman

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 21:02

The wooden motordromes and board tracks, incidentally, were a strictly US phenomenon (1909-1931), with the exception of a motordrome in Toronto. I don't believe this was due to the European climate, however, but rather, I reckon there was simply no one like Jack Prince in Europe!

Great point Rob. Without Prince, or someone similar, there was no driving force behind construction of the wooden ovals in Europe. I also believe the stories of the deterioration of the tracks to be greatly exaggerated, down to the likely apocryphal story of heads - alternately either children or workmen hastily repairing the track - popping up between boards as races were being run. Though it's quite true that the tracks did not age well and did deteriorate rapidly after a year or two. While the initial cost was (relatively) cheap, the cost of repair and maintenance was great and was a likely cause of tracks falling into disrepair.

#78 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 22:47

Prince was a former bicycle racer, and merely "expanded" his version of a racing track - first for motor bikes, then cars as well. There's no reason why a European bike racer couldn't have come up with a similar plan. I believe the board track phenomenon was largely an economic one - Prince was able to interest private investors, which made all the difference. This would not have been possible in European countries; only the liberal US economy was able to offer these opportunities.

And no, the stories of deterioration are not exaggerated! I've seen pictures and have read believable accounts that could make a grown man cry! These board tracks were lethal, EXTREMELY dangerous when time began gnawing on the foundations. They were, for better or worse, the quintessential US business enterprises: built for the quick buck, and not to last...

#79 Jim Thurman

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:42

Prince was a former bicycle racer, and merely "expanded" his version of a racing track - first for motor bikes, then cars as well. There's no reason why a European bike racer couldn't have come up with a similar plan. I believe the board track phenomenon was largely an economic one - Prince was able to interest private investors, which made all the difference. This would not have been possible in European countries; only the liberal US economy was able to offer these opportunities.

And no, the stories of deterioration are not exaggerated! I've seen pictures and have read believable accounts that could make a grown man cry! These board tracks were lethal, EXTREMELY dangerous when time began gnawing on the foundations. They were, for better or worse, the quintessential US business enterprises: built for the quick buck, and not to last...

Exactly. His idea came from velodromes. That's precisely what I was getting at with: "without Prince, or someone like him, there was no driving force behind construction of the wooden ovals in Europe." It was his courting and attracting of investors.

As far as the last paragraph: "These board tracks were lethal, EXTREMELY dangerous when time began gnawing on the foundations" Yes, exactly what I wrote: time. Most of them didn't fall apart immediately, or during their first event. That's the point I was making. The seasoning rapidly took a toll and led to type of the deterioration described (though I still seriously question the stories about "heads popping through the boards", particularly when it alternates). It's why their run was so short. As you wrote: "built for the quick buck, and not to last..."

Michael, are you feeling contrarian today? Because I'm agreeing! :lol:

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#80 Bob Riebe

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:33

Oval as far as old school U.S. racer were concerned was anything that was all left or right hand turns. So one may not consider some of the Euro tracks ovals but to a U.S. racer they would have been.
There were also "ovals" that had dog-legs or other alterations but to the racers they were just ovals with an annoying part.
Many considered the old Laguna Seca a broken or cracked, as one would break or crack an egg, oval for all practical purposes.

There were few true ovals, but to use the term as a general classification rather than a geometric shape, most, to all, listed here would qualify as far as the old school U.S. racers would think.

#81 wenoopy

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:35

Board Tracks

Somewhat off topic, I know, but the 64.12 mile circuit used for the 1906 GP of France near Le Mans included two "wooden plank" sections which diverted the circuit around villages. They seem to have been regarded as rough and dangerous.

Does one presume that US board tracks would have been constructed of the most readily available cost-effective timbers, i.e. softwoods like pine, which would not have very durable.

Stu

Edited by wenoopy, 24 June 2012 - 05:37.