Jump to content


Photo

Ecclestone: Customer cars could return in 2013


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 D.M.N.

D.M.N.
  • RC Forum Host

  • 7,256 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 22 June 2012 - 10:38

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100562

If it helps teams in severe financial difficulty, then I'm all for it. :up: Would prefer a customer car team than no team at all. What I wouldn't want though is for a team to 'team up' with a leading team, ie. say Caterham takes this year's Red Bull, I wouldn't want them to be able to just jump straight up into the midfield, because then there's an argument that that is not very fair to the other smaller teams - in my opinion.

Advertisement

#2 Tonka

Tonka
  • Member

  • 834 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 22 June 2012 - 10:48

Another of Bernie's nonsense suggestions that'll divert interest away from the German Bribery case.



#3 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 1,645 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:06

Why not work with single car teams/liveries? It wasn't always 2 cars/team. If they want cost reduction, how about more single driver teams? When they have more cash, they can field a second or third car. More like the old Indycar way.

#4 wrighty

wrighty
  • Member

  • 3,627 posts
  • Joined: November 06

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:39

Why not work with single car teams/liveries? It wasn't always 2 cars/team. If they want cost reduction, how about more single driver teams? When they have more cash, they can field a second or third car. More like the old Indycar way.


couldn't agree more, we're a long way now (thankfully) from the 'has to be a 2-car team and we'd like the 50 squillion dollar bond that we pay back to you if we're happy that you're serious...' farce we had several years ago.....F1 looked then like it was too full of its own self-importance, and that came from the top of the sport, so i'd be all in favour of single-car teams and split-sponsorship if it helps get more cars and more fans and more sponsors involved on the positive side of the sport.

#5 iotar

iotar
  • Member

  • 2,153 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:45

Horrible idea. Can they lock him up please?

#6 sadler

sadler
  • Member

  • 67 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:46

The whole point of Formula One is that teams build their own cars, if they no longer do that, it just becomes another series. We have 24 cars all within 4 seconds of each other. The last time we had a full grid you would typically see 7 to 8 seconds field spread.

Don't fix something that isn't broke!

#7 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,683 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:48

The whole point of Formula One is that teams build their own cars, if they no longer do that, it just becomes another series. We have 24 cars all within 4 seconds of each other. The last time we had a full grid you would typically see 7 to 8 seconds field spread.

Don't fix something that isn't broke!


What was F1 before that rule was introduced? Just another series?

#8 Tonka

Tonka
  • Member

  • 834 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:49

Why not work with single car teams/liveries? It wasn't always 2 cars/team. If they want cost reduction, how about more single driver teams? When they have more cash, they can field a second or third car. More like the old Indycar way.


Teams with a single car lose out on development. Two cars - twice the number of testbeds.



#9 zztopless1

zztopless1
  • Member

  • 185 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:49

couldn't agree more, we're a long way now (thankfully) from the 'has to be a 2-car team and we'd like the 50 squillion dollar bond that we pay back to you if we're happy that you're serious...' farce we had several years ago.....F1 looked then like it was too full of its own self-importance, and that came from the top of the sport, so i'd be all in favour of single-car teams and split-sponsorship if it helps get more cars and more fans and more sponsors involved on the positive side of the sport.


Agree with the sentiment, however I have a feeling that relative to other costs, running one car over two probably doesn't save that much in materials, manufacturing or man hours. In fact I would even suggest that it could be a net negative, given the relationship between sponsor livery tv exposure and their overall budgets...

#10 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,683 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:52

Teams with a single car lose out on development. Two cars - twice the number of testbeds.


So what? That would be the teams choice and doesn't answer the question of why not allow single car entries.

#11 Rob

Rob
  • Member

  • 8,273 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:55

About time too. Anything that encourages more entries is a good thing.

#12 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,683 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:56

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100562

If it helps teams in severe financial difficulty, then I'm all for it. :up: Would prefer a customer car team than no team at all. What I wouldn't want though is for a team to 'team up' with a leading team, ie. say Caterham takes this year's Red Bull, I wouldn't want them to be able to just jump straight up into the midfield, because then there's an argument that that is not very fair to the other smaller teams - in my opinion.


The major argument over customer cars is down to money, with midfield teams worried they could lose out, but that's easily addressed by ruling that customer teams do not get a share, or get a much reduced share, of the prize money.


#13 GSiebert

GSiebert
  • Member

  • 1,902 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:01

Could work if the rules were not changing every year, making one year old cars obsolete.

#14 Rob

Rob
  • Member

  • 8,273 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:07

The major argument over customer cars is down to money, with midfield teams worried they could lose out, but that's easily addressed by ruling that customer teams do not get a share, or get a much reduced share, of the prize money.


If they're going to lose out in terms of performance then they could always run a customer car themselves - they wouldn't have to do R&D and they'd be more competitive.

#15 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,683 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:09

If they're going to lose out in terms of performance then they could always run a customer car themselves - they wouldn't have to do R&D and they'd be more competitive.


I don't mind the idea of a customer team, but I do believe there should be bigger benefits and rewards to being a full team.


#16 Slowinfastout

Slowinfastout
  • Member

  • 9,681 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:15

I'll take that more seriously when it's going to be the FIA talking about this, because a fair amount of rules would need to be changed to make something like that happen..

Right now all this represents is a diversion from the budget cap talks that the other players are pushing for with the Concorde negos..

Edited by Slowinfastout, 22 June 2012 - 12:17.


#17 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,683 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:18

I'll take that more seriously when it's going to be the FIA talking about this, because a fair amount of rules would need to be changed to make something like that happen..


I'm sure this is just BE answering a question and not something he has called a press conference to announce, so it's a discussion point but not something to get too excited about. Unless of course there is something in the new Concorde agreement about it.

#18 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:35

It got to be more specific about who is entering and who is selling. I believe we do not live in the age of expecting an Eruopean racing team to enter formula One now.
It is more lilely that the move comes from good economy, such as USA, Brazil India or even China.

- Will Force India sell car to the new team faced by Chandok? No I say Chandok will buy car from Lotus.
- Red Bull will sell its cars to STR, and they will run One team rather than two. Red Bull will NOT sell any cars to any other team.
- USA team will buy car from Mclaren.
- Brazil team will do the same, more likely that it is Ferrari and Felipe in the car.
- Donno about China, moest likely Merc, and with Chinese Driver, and they will out source even running of the team.

So if so how would the F1 politicalscapes look?

#19 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:41

I love the way Bernie always makes it sound like impoverished teams are nothing to do with him, when he deliberately loads the dice away from them and gives nearly all the money to the top end of the grid (not to say what he gives away to the leeches).

Personally I much prefer to have one class of car in a race than two, anyway. There would be all kinds of problems with customer cars, what's fair and so on, because afaic any constructor would always deserve more kudos than a customer team, and so would not deserve to be beaten by one.

Then pretty quickly we'd have constructors converting to customer teams.

Advertisement

#20 Slowinfastout

Slowinfastout
  • Member

  • 9,681 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:49

Considering what it takes to build a competitive car in F1 these days, who would ever switch from being a customer to becoming a constructor?

The small teams are already using the big teams hardware, be it wind tunnels or even complete powertrains.. I think it's clear such a measure would seal the current handful of big teams into being the constructors and the rest would forever be stuck into buying stuff from them.

But this is all academic IMO since it's not going to happen.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 22 June 2012 - 12:50.


#21 King Six

King Six
  • Member

  • 3,230 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 22 June 2012 - 13:38

Throw them out of the constructors championship if they use customer cars and I'm all for it. If the only other option is that the teams go bust then this is the only solution left...personally if F1 is in a situation where it can only exist if one or two companies make the cars and engines for the entire grid, then F1 might aswell shut itself down instead of turn into IndyCar...

#22 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,547 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 22 June 2012 - 13:49

What was F1 before that rule was introduced? Just another series?

I guess so. A time when fans made do with a 1500 cc based spectacle, when they had witnessed 16 cylinder 600hp monsters just 30 years before, therefore putting the new f1 on a more equal profile with sportscar racing at least.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 22 June 2012 - 13:50.


#23 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,547 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 22 June 2012 - 13:53

Throw them out of the constructors championship if they use customer cars and I'm all for it. If the only other option is that the teams go bust then this is the only solution left...personally if F1 is in a situation where it can only exist if one or two companies make the cars and engines for the entire grid, then F1 might aswell shut itself down instead of turn into IndyCar...


Only three companies will make the engines precisely!

I don't see a problem with teams using year old cars.

What else will they the superseded race chassis do? Sit in the team's museum or on demo duties. Hardly a good use, when nascar chassis are raced for years and years, likewise for Indycar racing.

Force India already use the rear end out of a McLaren while Sauber use that out of a Ferrari and Caterham using the rear end out of a Red Bull, what difference if they have the tub and aero as well?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 22 June 2012 - 13:54.


#24 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,588 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 22 June 2012 - 13:55

This is obviously not just Bernie's idea, and F1 used to work this way at times in the past 50 seasons.

But the current setup sort of closes part of what was possible then, I would like to see.

1) Enter 1 or 2 car teams, you have as a team to commit to the full season, failure to show for just one will mean exclusion from the championship as well loss of 'x amount' which have to be deposited into an account before the season start.

2) Build a car and you are a constructor, and can battle for the constructors championship, buy a car and you only score towards the drivers championship, and the supplier of your car does not get credit for points scored by your car.

3) No limit on number of teams, if you want to race commit to a season and show for qualifying. Fastest 26 cars who can qualify within 107% will race, rest are done for the weekend.

I have a bunch of other changes in mind but for customer cars, this is it.

:cool:

#25 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,547 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 22 June 2012 - 13:59

I don't mind the idea of a customer team, but I do believe there should be bigger benefits and rewards to being a full team.

Simply permit the IP of a superseded car to be sold. The new team will still need to make any extra spare themselves, if they do not understand the flexy floor then after they break the supplied ones well then their performance will start to deteriorate!!