Jump to content


Photo

F1 teams to consider tyre warmer ban.... REALLY !


  • Please log in to reply
54 replies to this topic

#1 PhilG

PhilG
  • Member

  • 474 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 23 June 2012 - 11:56

What on earth are they thinking ... ban tyre warmer to cut costs... its the bit that keeps your $10m car glued to the ground .. one off on cold tyres will pay for enough tyre warmer to last a season.

Ban them to improve the show, by all means, but if you want to save money , save it on all the shiny gin palaces that masquerade as motorhomes and all the stuff that goes with them

The car is 10% of the team budget, a 10% saving in the car is a 1% saving in total spend... a total waste of time.

i race bikes , and we all have warmers , cos its a SAFETY issue.. at little cost .. i despair , i really do.

Advertisement

#2 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,686 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:01

What on earth are they thinking ... ban tyre warmer to cut costs... its the bit that keeps your $10m car glued to the ground .. one off on cold tyres will pay for enough tyre warmer to last a season.

Ban them to improve the show, by all means, but if you want to save money , save it on all the shiny gin palaces that masquerade as motorhomes and all the stuff that goes with them

The car is 10% of the team budget, a 10% saving in the car is a 1% saving in total spend... a total waste of time.

i race bikes , and we all have warmers , cos its a SAFETY issue.. at little cost .. i despair , i really do.


Tyre warmers were not introduced as a safety feature, they were introduced because it enabled the cars to go faster immediately after a pit stop. There are many series that manage quite happily without warmers and they don't all go spinning off into the walls. It might require a change to the compounds, but the worse that will happen is they will be slower after the stop for a lap or 2. If they can't control that then they should not be driving.


#3 PhilG

PhilG
  • Member

  • 474 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:15

Tyre warmers were not introduced as a safety feature, they were introduced because it enabled the cars to go faster immediately after a pit stop. There are many series that manage quite happily without warmers and they don't all go spinning off into the walls. It might require a change to the compounds, but the worse that will happen is they will be slower after the stop for a lap or 2. If they can't control that then they should not be driving.


Throwing something away that you already have doesnt save money, in the same way that going V8 from V10 didnt save a penny.

Having a car struggling on cold tyres trying to hold back one that isnt might seem like fun , but the first time we have a biggy cos somebody pushed on cold rubber , it wont seem so funny them

Pirelli will have to develop a new tyre , which will cost , and then everyone will then have to try to get that tyre to work , which will cost money..

Flawed logic.

Cold tyres give no warning , they just let go, on bikes its a 'no save' moment , in cars i imagine it will be the same on cars that are designed to run at such high speeds with warm tyres.

You can say INDY runs without them , but they always have, and the whole job is designed round that, its not that they had them and took them away.




#4 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,686 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:21

It does save money as they don't buy the kit once and then never have to replace it. It's also less kit that has to be transported around. Personally I'll be quite happy to see them go as they add nothing to racing from a spectator POV.

#5 Octavian

Octavian
  • Member

  • 703 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:26

Throwing something away that you already have doesnt save money, in the same way that going V8 from V10 didnt save a penny.

Having a car struggling on cold tyres trying to hold back one that isnt might seem like fun , but the first time we have a biggy cos somebody pushed on cold rubber , it wont seem so funny them

Pirelli will have to develop a new tyre , which will cost , and then everyone will then have to try to get that tyre to work , which will cost money..

Flawed logic.

Cold tyres give no warning , they just let go, on bikes its a 'no save' moment , in cars i imagine it will be the same on cars that are designed to run at such high speeds with warm tyres.

You can say INDY runs without them , but they always have, and the whole job is designed round that, its not that they had them and took them away.


Your whole post is flawed logic.

A) They buy new warmers every season, these things have a shelf life before the heating elements burn out. So the cost saving is not buying them and then not having to transport, set up and power them.

B) Pirelli develop a new tyre every year so what's different? Now they just factor this is, no big deal.

C) Cold tyres give no warning? Do they? Didn't we just say Pirelli would factor this in to their new design? And nobody is suggesting this is going to be introduced midseason! Teams and drivers (the best drivers in the world whom have all driven in junior series without tyre warmers....) will have plenty of testing time to get used to these.

#6 DrProzac

DrProzac
  • Member

  • 1,922 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:27

What's the point of this? It can't be cost cutting.

#7 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 6,481 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:36

It does seem a trivial thing to discuss cutting, how much would that really save, an extra few kilograms of freight? I wish they would spend the time coming up with real ways to save money.

#8 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,686 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:39

It does seem a trivial thing to discuss cutting, how much would that really save, an extra few kilograms of freight? I wish they would spend the time coming up with real ways to save money.


May seem a trivial thing, but add enough of them together and you save a whole lot. It's a simple thing to save on and one where all teams are affected equally.

#9 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 1,452 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:40

Personally I'll be quite happy to see them go as they add nothing to racing from a spectator POV.


Well, the spectators ARE more important than the sport.

It'd be the end of wet races; anybody fancy aquaplaning on wets with no pressure because they are clap cold?

#10 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,686 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:44

Well, the spectators ARE more important than the sport.

It'd be the end of wet races; anybody fancy aquaplaning on wets with no pressure because they are clap cold?


Absolute rubbish.


#11 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 1,452 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:46

Absolute rubbish.


Really? Ride height doesn't change with pressure?


#12 Tiakumosan

Tiakumosan
  • Member

  • 284 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:50

Are tyre warmers so expensive?

#13 PhilG

PhilG
  • Member

  • 474 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:57

Are tyre warmers so expensive?



Id guess at £2500 a set , but thats based on a a good set of bike ones being £500... they have lots of them , limit the number of sets maybe to 4 per car, but the irony is that they will still all make covers so you cant see what tyres/wear they are getting.




*** a good set of MA Horne F1 warmers is £850 secondhand..

Edited by PhilG, 23 June 2012 - 13:07.


#14 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 1,658 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:57

Absolute rubbish.

Indeed. Before they leave the pit lane, the wet tires already cool down considerably.

#15 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,686 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:57

Really? Ride height doesn't change with pressure?


I didn't say that, but banning tyre warmers would not be the end of wet races. Tyre design would easily get over the problems. As far as racing in the wet goes, the biggest issue there is Parc Ferme.


#16 FerrariAlonso

FerrariAlonso
  • Member

  • 409 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 23 June 2012 - 15:13

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100613

I think this is one of the biggest bullshit. Team spend so much money on lots of things, I can't believe this would be the biggest threat for the budget. Anyway, if they save a certain amount of money with that move, they will spend that on another area.

#17 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 6,852 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 15:14

Probably for the best, those Plankets sound dangerous!

#18 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,906 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 15:14

Plankets?

#19 maximilian

maximilian
  • Member

  • 481 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 15:48

Posted Image

Tyre warmer plankets should definitely be banned. They are an abomination in the pits!

Advertisement

#20 FerrariAlonso

FerrariAlonso
  • Member

  • 409 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 23 June 2012 - 16:00

My apologies! I miss-spelled it. Not planket, but blanket! :)

#21 MrAerodynamicist

MrAerodynamicist
  • Member

  • 13,744 posts
  • Joined: March 99

Posted 23 June 2012 - 16:06

It gets mooted every couple of years, but then the driver will cry danger and the FIA/teams will drop the plan.

#22 Baddoer

Baddoer
  • Member

  • 1,505 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 23 June 2012 - 16:10

Oh the are so expensive. For sure it's better and cheaper to spend some millions on developing self-warming tyre :up:

#23 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 2,949 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 23 June 2012 - 16:26

Bugger me, the way people go on about tyres you'd think the drivers climb in a pair and roll down a hill for a 2012 Grand Prix race.

#24 dweller23

dweller23
  • Member

  • 688 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 16:55

Wow, that's truly great. Bringing back some of the aspects that drivers themselves have to take care of is always welcome. Now what they need is manual gear-shifting and no DRS and we will see who's the best out there.

#25 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 11,923 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 23 June 2012 - 18:29

Can somebody remind us which other series use tyre warmers? It should be easy - they will be the series with multiple fatalities every race, if some of the above claptrap is to be believed.

Get rid of them. They aren't necessary.

#26 WhiteBlue

WhiteBlue
  • Member

  • 2,138 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 18:30

It does seem a trivial thing to discuss cutting, how much would that really save, an extra few kilograms of freight? I wish they would spend the time coming up with real ways to save money.

Tire warmers are not essential if you leave them away it will not change the strategy by much. It will be the same for all and it will simply require more skill by the driver which isn't so bad. The main cost factor is that they will be able to run smaller race teams and save on freight. It would be a good idea though to listen to Pirelli and give them enough time to develop suitable compounds, so that safety issues will be avoided.

When you look at the general need for cost control this will be a very small item compared to engines and chassis aerodynamics. So the fact that it is even discussed indicates to me that the teams and engine manufacturers are in the process of getting it wrong again with general cost control. Same old thing once again. F1 is really good at shooting it's own foot.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 23 June 2012 - 18:33.


#27 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 10,077 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 23 June 2012 - 18:47

How much do they expect to save?

#28 iotar

iotar
  • Member

  • 2,153 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 23 June 2012 - 19:55

Yes, keep KERS and get rid of blankets. Either somebody is trying to make a mockery out of cost cutting or trying to dilute the discussion into trivial details. Most likely to distract from real issues. See: we're doing "something", it's all good.

They complain about lack of tests and then some teams like Ferrari and Red Bull, can afford to develop parallelly multiple exhausts, tunnels or whatever they need. Speaking of which: Whiting had a chance to nip in the bud all the exhaust tricks and now if RB continues to exploit that FIA may need to have another look.

#29 Rob G

Rob G
  • Member

  • 10,932 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 23 June 2012 - 20:09

These are the best drivers in the world. Surely they can manage to drive a few miles on cold tires without throwing the car off the road.

Heck, I do it every morning. :lol:

#30 faaaz

faaaz
  • Member

  • 1,870 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 20:47

These must cost tens and thousands of dollars.

#31 pup

pup
  • Member

  • 447 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 23 June 2012 - 20:49

It's still bizarre to me that the sport is so concerned about the spending side of things and not the income. Why don't they sell ad space on the tire warmers and make money instead? It's not like the cameras don't show close ups of them about fifty times a weekend.

#32 Cool Beans

Cool Beans
  • Member

  • 1,553 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 23 June 2012 - 21:12

I have no strong feelings for or against tyre warmers, but it does seem like cost cutting is not the real reason behind this rule change. They seem to have acquired a taste for lottery, and if there's something even more unpredictable than the current Pirelli 'eggs', it's probably running them cold.
I guess the best drivers will manage the cold tyres well, or more likely a few teams will build cars that manage them well and others will destroy them in the first lap by slipping around.

#33 Octavian

Octavian
  • Member

  • 703 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 23 June 2012 - 21:33

I have no strong feelings for or against tyre warmers, but it does seem like cost cutting is not the real reason behind this rule change. They seem to have acquired a taste for lottery, and if there's something even more unpredictable than the current Pirelli 'eggs', it's probably running them cold.
I guess the best drivers will manage the cold tyres well, or more likely a few teams will build cars that manage them well and others will destroy them in the first lap by slipping around.


The teams don't like a lottery - it's the teams proposing this, not the FIA, not Bernie, no Pirelli. Teams like Ferrari and McLaren do not under any circumstance prefer unpredictable races - why on earth would you think that?

#34 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,906 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 June 2012 - 21:48

The teams don't like a lottery - it's the teams proposing this, not the FIA, not Bernie, no Pirelli. Teams like Ferrari and McLaren do not under any circumstance prefer unpredictable races - why on earth would you think that?


They're all behind Pirelli.

I echo what Beancounter said, it's just a another stupid device to spice up 'the show'. It's funny how so many of us say that term in an ironic sense, and yet that's openly what all the teams are calling it.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 23 June 2012 - 21:49.


#35 travbrad

travbrad
  • Member

  • 690 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 23 June 2012 - 21:55

I'm not against banning tyre warmers, but saying it "cuts costs" is pretty ridiculous, considering what a tiny % of the budget that is, especially after recently introducing KERS which the teams have spent many millions on. This reminds me of a few years back when they brought green tyres to a race to show how they support "energy efficiency", after flying thousands of miles around the world on jets.

At the end of the day the teams are going to just spend the money elsewhere anyway. The teams will always spend as much money as they possibly can to gain a competitive advantage. Their budgets won't be reduced at all, just shifted to other areas.



The teams don't like a lottery


Depends which team you are talking about. I'm sure a team like Sauber doesn't mind the way things have been going this year. Also a better show = more viewers = potentially more revenue for all the teams.

Edited by travbrad, 23 June 2012 - 23:00.


#36 Cool Beans

Cool Beans
  • Member

  • 1,553 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 23 June 2012 - 22:15

The teams don't like a lottery - it's the teams proposing this, not the FIA, not Bernie, no Pirelli. Teams like Ferrari and McLaren do not under any circumstance prefer unpredictable races - why on earth would you think that?

Well I don't know. Amidst all this lottery there has been not a single bad word from the teams. They all love it. And they even said nobody will probably ever get to grips (hah!) with the current Pirellis.
But this is not a debate about the shitty tyres so I'll leave it there.

#37 Bartel

Bartel
  • Member

  • 887 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 23 June 2012 - 22:17

They were going to ban them years ago. I could care less if they get banned or don't, if they are banned it could make it pretty exciting if 2 cars stopped on the same lap fighting for the lead and came out of the pits nose to tail, first driver to warm their tyres up will have a crack at the win.

#38 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,706 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:07

They complain about lack of tests and then some teams like Ferrari and Red Bull, can afford to develop parallelly multiple exhausts, tunnels or whatever they need.


Makes a mockery of the supposed RRA.

Although tyre warmers aren't needed it does seem a strange item to single out under the guise of cost saving.

Edited by P123, 23 June 2012 - 23:10.


#39 smoothcrim

smoothcrim
  • Member

  • 426 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:12

get rid of them,i want to see the cars skating around for 2-3 laps before they warm up.

Advertisement

#40 HP

HP
  • Member

  • 14,383 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:17

They were going to ban them years ago. I could care less if they get banned or don't, if they are banned it could make it pretty exciting if 2 cars stopped on the same lap fighting for the lead and came out of the pits nose to tail, first driver to warm their tyres up will have a crack at the win.

But when one driver pits a lap earlier than the other the outcome will be pretty obvious.

Not that I mind them getting rid of tire warmers. But it seems to me that maybe that was the only thing teams could agree on.

Also while it's true that the transportation costs for the team will get a bit cheaper, how much money could they save if having 1 or 2 people less on the pit crew?

This cost saving measure is a cheap bargaining tool. And Todt, having been a team boss that has discussed such things with other team bosses himself, should know it.

Edited by HP, 23 June 2012 - 23:17.


#41 jondon

jondon
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:21

DRS also costs money, can we please ban it too?

#42 Cool Beans

Cool Beans
  • Member

  • 1,553 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:24

Also while it's true that the transportation costs for the team will get a bit cheaper, how much money could they save if having 1 or 2 people less on the pit crew?

Also a stack of blankets takes up less space than the foldable chairs the pit mechanics sit on during races. I don't see those proposed for cost cutting.

#43 engel

engel
  • Member

  • 5,037 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:31

I still for the life of me can't understand the cost saving argument for tyre warmers that gets recycled every couple of years. Each car gets 11 sets of dry tyres and 7 sets of wet tyres per grand prix. 18 sets per car, 36 sets per team. 3 years ago the cost of a set tyre warmers was £2200. Call it £2500. So a team spends £90,000 on its tyre warmers. Even if they throw the tyre warmers away at the end of the season I bet they spend more on plastic folding chairs for their hospitality areas that they throw away at the flyaway races than they spend on tyre warmers.

Fine if they want to ban it on sporting grounds, but on cost saving grounds? It's just ... silly.Pirelli (or whichever tyre manufacturer) will spend way more re-engineering the tyres

#44 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,881 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:31

for sporting reasons its fine, but not for cost, as sooner or later your going to bin your car one way or another (or get collected) because of cold tyres, and thats expensive. wiping the side off a indycar is thought to cost 250,000 dollars easily.

if they want to really save costs they would limit the aero upgrades teams do, along with wind tunnel time and cfd etc. the top teams are itterating stuff so much and so fast, thats where the money is going atm.

im pretty sure hrt wasnt saving a few hundred million over the top teams on tyre blankets.

#45 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 6,249 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 23 June 2012 - 23:52

Tyre warmers were not introduced as a safety feature, they were introduced because it enabled the cars to go faster immediately after a pit stop. There are many series that manage quite happily without warmers and they don't all go spinning off into the walls. It might require a change to the compounds, but the worse that will happen is they will be slower after the stop for a lap or 2. If they can't control that then they should not be driving.

The heros in all so called pro series crash regularly on cold tyres. That is after they have been told on the radio they have cold tyres. it is then you realise these guys are not very special or smart at all.
I am neither for or against them, tyre warmers do not completly warm the trye anyway, just take the cold edge away.
Though as someone below says manual shifts will probably sort the men from the boys, and make them drive better too.

#46 mtknot

mtknot
  • Member

  • 720 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:34

What on earth are they thinking ... ban tyre warmer to cut costs... its the bit that keeps your $10m car glued to the ground .. one off on cold tyres will pay for enough tyre warmer to last a season.

Ban them to improve the show, by all means, but if you want to save money , save it on all the shiny gin palaces that masquerade as motorhomes and all the stuff that goes with them

The car is 10% of the team budget, a 10% saving in the car is a 1% saving in total spend... a total waste of time.

i race bikes , and we all have warmers , cos its a SAFETY issue.. at little cost .. i despair , i really do.


May be an ulterior motive to push Pirelli to make tyres with a wider operating temperature (but same life).

#47 CSquared

CSquared
  • Member

  • 625 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:19

Each car gets 11 sets of dry tyres and 7 sets of wet tyres per grand prix. 18 sets per car, 36 sets per team. 3 years ago the cost of a set tyre warmers was £2200. Call it £2500. So a team spends £90,000 on its tyre warmers.

Do they really have a set of warmers for each allocated set of tires? I would think 2 sets per driver would be sufficient. You don't need to warm tires you're not going to be using in the next 30 minutes.

So now the teams will be going through immense trouble to set their tires out in the sunniest spots. That'll be a laugh. Then they'll start coming up with "cheats" like magnifying glasses, mirrors, etc.

The time lost to a pit stop will be increased, so they might try harder to avoid stops.


#48 BMW4life

BMW4life
  • Member

  • 741 posts
  • Joined: August 03

Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:51

Wow, that's truly great. Bringing back some of the aspects that drivers themselves have to take care of is always welcome. Now what they need is manual gear-shifting and no DRS and we will see who's the best out there.



Well, if you can't tell who the best drivers out there are right now, manual gearboxes, no tire warmers and no DRS won't help you. :rotfl:

Since you feel there is so much skill in involved in shifting gears manually, may I suggest tuning in to watch NASCAR at sears point tomorrow? I'm assuming you're not American, but if H-pattern shifters and no traction control is what separates the boys from the men, then the men are right here, stateside. It's the only major series on the face of the earth with h-pattern gearboxes you guys crave soooooo much!

:rolleyes:

#49 DILLIGAF

DILLIGAF
  • Member

  • 3,209 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:24

These are the best drivers in the world. Surely they can manage to drive a few miles on cold tires without throwing the car off the road.


+1

#50 hunnylander

hunnylander
  • Member

  • 4,448 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:33

May be an ulterior motive to push Pirelli to make tyres with a wider operating temperature (but same life).

This.