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#1 SirRacer

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 13:42

There has been a lot of voices saying that they are hearing again the typical off throttle blowing from last year, specially from RedBull.

Can anyone explain me what were the regulations that the FIA introduced this year to avoid the off throttle blowing and how did the RedBull get over them to keep doing it?


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#2 Bartel

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 13:45

The Red Bull definitely seems alot more corse getting back on the gas and in the downshift. I have noticed it more than ever here in Valencia

#3 TC3000

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 14:04

AKAIK (but I could be wrong), off throttle blowing was/is not banned per se.
Remember, that when the FIA tried to "ban" it last year in Silverstone, there were many people, engine manufacturers,
claiming that they need to do it, for reliability reasons.
In the case of Renault, they claimed to need "cold blowing" to cool their exhaust valves.
As the engines are "frozen", it's unlikely, that they would be able to stop doing it now, if what they said at the time was true.

What the FIA (the teams in then end, as part of the F1 commission) did, was changing the location of the exhausts, therefore
off throttle blowing is not banned.
Just to use it in the form of the EBD (exhaust blown diffuser).
It was assumed/thought that with the new location of the exhausts, there would not be any significant aerodynamical advantage to be had,
by doing it.

#4 jrg19

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 14:07

RedBull also has the split floor/diffuser in Valencia, which is probably worth around 4 tenths.

#5 Kelateboy

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 14:18

There has been a lot of voices saying that they are hearing again the typical off throttle blowing from last year, specially from RedBull.

Can anyone explain me what were the regulations that the FIA introduced this year to avoid the off throttle blowing and how did the RedBull get over them to keep doing it?

All the Renault and Mercedes powered engines have off throttle blowing. Not sure about Ferrari and Cosworth powered engines though.

#6 prty

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 16:48

The thing that is clear is a very strong correlation between the quality of Vettel's driving and the amount of EBDs there is.

#7 Aieljose

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 17:10

Im really getting sick with this team. Seems the only way they can win is when they exploit the rules in some way. Does anyone actually believe they need to blow off throttle for reliability?? Seems like a convenient excuse in my eyes. I mean are we to believe that in all the time used to develop the engine engineers overlooked one of the most important aspects in cooling and reliability?? How naive can you possibly be?

#8 TC3000

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 17:52

well this "engine blowing" goes back a while, and was done, by some teams/manufacturers before it became "en vouge" to use it to gain extra downforce.
There are technical reason, why you would want to do it, and they are independent of aerodynamics.
One, could/would be to counteract engine braking/KERS charging for a more consistent driver feel under braking (KERS charging vs. non KERS charging, and it#s effect on effective brake balance)
But as people have seen/learned how powerful it can be to use it for aero reasons, they try to hang on to it.
It's always difficult to "unlearn" something, or to get the "Jenny back into the bottle".


#9 Disgrace

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 18:43

Im really getting sick with this team. Seems the only way they can win is when they exploit the rules in some way.


What if the team you support were doing this?

You can't blame Red Bull for exploiting rules that are badly written, nor for getting more performance out of said rules than other teams. Other teams need to step it up, or the FIA needs to clamp down, and I think the fans prefer the former option.

If a team is dominant, like Red Bull last year, then all credit should go to their better design team. Only then it's only a question of preference whether you like the team or not, how they conduct themselves or their policies.

If we get a situation where a team is dominant, and they conduct themselves in a highly disagreeable manner (as I found Ferrari under their dream team guise for example) then we have a problem.

Edited by Disgrace, 23 June 2012 - 18:44.


#10 prty

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 18:53

[...]

Other teams need to step it up

[...]

If a team is dominant, like Red Bull last year, then all credit should go to their better design team.


That's the whole problem of it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Renault engine is a lot more efficient for blowing the difusser. Plus as it's the one who has less fuel consumption, they can use it for longer or pay less of a price.

They found themselves in that position out of pure dumb luck, as when the engines were homologated in 2006, no one had this in mind. And the others are stuck with their engines, so there's nothing they can do. In fact, if you remember, Red Bull was so vocal about the Renault engine, but when the EBD thing came up, they suddenly shut up.

Edited by prty, 23 June 2012 - 18:54.


#11 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 19:02

Can anyone explain me what were the regulations that the FIA introduced this year to avoid the off throttle blowing and how did the RedBull get over them to keep doing it?


FIA didn´t ban off throttle blowing. Blown diffussers aren´t banned either.

FIA fixed a range of legal exhaust positions and angles - further away from diffusers- (anti EBD rule), and a maximum ammount of gasses that can be produced when the driver isn´t accelerating (anti off-throttle blowing rule).

RB seems to be getting the most downforce from engine gasses within these limits. They aren´t even exploiting any kind of loophole or being smart, as some suggest here. Their exhaust are pointing inside the legal range, their engine is producing gasses under the max ammount off-throttle. They´re just doing a better job.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 23 June 2012 - 19:06.


#12 Aieljose

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 19:03

What if the team you support were doing this?

You can't blame Red Bull for exploiting rules that are badly written, nor for getting more performance out of said rules than other teams. Other teams need to step it up, or the FIA needs to clamp down, and I think the fans prefer the former option.

If a team is dominant, like Red Bull last year, then all credit should go to their better design team. Only then it's only a question of preference whether you like the team or not, how they conduct themselves or their policies.

If we get a situation where a team is dominant, and they conduct themselves in a highly disagreeable manner (as I found Ferrari under their dream team guise for example) then we have a problem.

What was so disagreeable in how ferrari operated in the early 2000's? What did they do that is so very different to how redbull are operating now?? I see no difference. It's just the typical hypocracy that when ferrari do something controvercial then it's cheating but when redbull does it then it just a clever interpretation of the rules. :rolleyes:
To answer your question, yes, i think it's normal to feel abit different when your team is exploiting the rules but that goes for anyone. I would definitely not want to win with a cloud of controversy over my head and would probably feel a little guilty if it happened.

#13 Disgrace

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 19:22

What was so disagreeable in how ferrari operated in the early 2000's? What did they do that is so very different to how redbull are operating now?? I see no difference. It's just the typical hypocracy that when ferrari do something controvercial then it's cheating but when redbull does it then it just a clever interpretation of the rules. :rolleyes:


You used that word, not me. I was referring to their behaviour in general (for example, distasteful staged photo finishes) which has nothing to do with the rules. My point is that is something that fans can freely be divided upon, that's all. The differences are in eras, both are cases of one team doing highly superior jobs, but times have changed. The field is generally stronger/tighter and races more exciting, for example.

To answer your question, yes, i think it's normal to feel abit different when your team is exploiting the rules but that goes for anyone. I would definitely not want to win with a cloud of controversy over my head and would probably feel a little guilty if it happened.


:up:

I'm sure people prefer winning without controversy, but if cheating (for example in extreme cases) or simply exploiting bad rules (grey areas) gets results and the cash to get more results, I don't think such guilt exists.

#14 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 19:29

There are not clever interpretations or grey rules involved in this issue.

The regulations are crystal clear. Your exhaust must be placed inside a range of positions and aim to a certain direction. Your engine can´t produce more than a certain ammount of gasses off-throttle. RB are doing a better job than the rest to gain downforce inside these rules.

#15 joshb

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 19:34

The thing that is clear is a very strong correlation between the quality of Vettel's driving and the amount of EBDs there is.


there's also very strong correlation between people bitching and whining and Vettel's performances

#16 Group B

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 19:39

there's also very strong correlation between people bitching and whining and Vettel's performances

People don't like one driver winning too much, especially if it's at the expense of their hero, especially if they're young and breaking records, and in some cases, sadly, especially if they're German. Just look at MS; there was bitching about team orders, traction control, Ferrari owning the FIA, yada, yada, yada.

#17 ashley313

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:06

Off throttle blowing is less about exhaust position and more about the regulation regarding throttle valves. They may not be open if the driver is not making a torque request. A torque request is a depression of the throttle pedal. This is how I understood the rule as introduced over the winter, and how people like Craig Scarborough have explained it. How an engineer gets around that I know not, but I do know all of the data is available to the FIA and that if RBR were doing something against the rules, they would be caught. I'd have to guess they've just nailed a really nice, smooth torque curve that lends more confidence out of the corners, and gives gear options. Changing the inlet trumpets (you run taller ones in extremely hot conditions) can also change the sound of the engine a bit. It isn't just certain chassis that work better in hotter climates, some engines do too. Not surprising that the Renault unit performed well in the heat of Bahrain and now in Valencia.

I have to laugh at people who criticize RBR or any team for "exploiting the rules". That's the point of F1. That's what teams have done throughout the history of the sport. Bernie Ecclestone even says he would do the same. There is no "spirit of the rules" in F1.

#18 ali.unal

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:42

People don't like one driver winning too much, especially if it's at the expense of their hero, especially if they're young and breaking records, and in some cases, sadly, especially if they're German. Just look at MS; there was bitching about team orders, traction control, Ferrari owning the FIA, yada, yada, yada.

I don't think it's anything to do with nationalities, but I accept otherwise that there is a strong correlation between a certain driver's success and legality of the car hereof. That is the biggest hypocricy in my opinion. Exploiting a rule -if any and a big IF- is not a reason to bash or get angry. It means their design office is doing a better job. Formula 1 is all about exploiting to gain performance. In one of these days, I shall not be surprise if one of those people would come out and say, "Hey Vettel or Hamilton is pressurising the gas pedal too long!"

#19 Rick911

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 12:12

Im really getting sick with this team. Seems the only way they can win is when they exploit the rules in some way. Does anyone actually believe they need to blow off throttle for reliability?? Seems like a convenient excuse in my eyes. I mean are we to believe that in all the time used to develop the engine engineers overlooked one of the most important aspects in cooling and reliability?? How naive can you possibly be?


RBR cheating or just innovating? How about historic innovations that exploited the rules of the day? Wings, ground effects, turbocharging, the half fuel car, raised nose, barge boards. It doesn't seem like more complex rules have been the answer. If the rule book was thinner then cheating or the perception of cheating would disappear, with the last rule being, "final decision rests with BCE."