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New Redbull legality rumours


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#1 Anomnader

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:48

As Sebastian Vettel sped well clear of the otherwise tightly bunched Valencia field in Formula One qualifying, the latest rumblings about the legality of his 2012 Red Bull began to grow louder.

A new Adrian Newey penned floor has debuted on the RB8 this weekend, which according to some sources produces a kind of 'double diffuser' effect.

And veteran photographer Darren Heath said he heard from his regular trackside vantage point in practice "what sounds like off throttle blowing" coming from German Vettel's car.

Then, with the chasing seven drivers all separated by a similar margin, Vettel stunned the paddock late on Saturday by going almost four tenths faster than his nearest qualifying rival, Lewis Hamilton.

So with hundredths or thousandths proving decisive among his chasing rivals, is there is a 'secret' to Vettel's several tenths gap on Saturday?

"What is your secret?" Hamilton, agreeing with the questioner, smilingly enquired of his rival after qualifying.

"Can't tell you," the German smiled back.

The smiles might not last for long. Germany's Bild newspaper said the situation could lead to Formula 1's "next protest threat against Red Bull".

Briton Hamilton is quoted by the newspaper as saying: "You only have to look at his car to know where the big gap comes from."

The McLaren driver is expecting to be beaten by the upgraded Red Bull on Sunday.

"My boss wouldn't like me to say this but ... my target is to finish where I am," he said.

Williams' Pastor Maldonado starts third, but many in the paddock consider Romain Grosjean's Lotus to be Vettel's real challenger for victory.

Asked by Marca newspaper if he could be Formula 1's eighth different winner of 2012, the Frenchman answered: "I could be!

"I will start the race with the desire to win," he confirmed, according to the French language RMC Sport.

"But I think that if Vettel keeps his pace, he is untouchable."


http://www.f1sa.com/...c...&Itemid=157

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#2 Mackey

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:57

Well. it seems they have recovered their Q3 trick, i think they have found a loophole to use off-throttle again.

#3 krapmeister

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:59

The thing is, if RBR and Renault are doing their off-throttle blowing trick again surely the FIA with the SECU will spot this very easily and be able to decide if a clear infraction of the rules or not.

I know, I know it is Charlie Whiting though so... :drunk:

Edited by krapmeister, 24 June 2012 - 11:28.


#4 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:09

RB are always thinking on the limit of the rules. Always. Aside from the off-throttle, look at the duct. Another very clever interpretation of the rules. Red Bull are using the ramp to loophole the 50mm minimum radius rule and have a 100mm height tunnel when 100mm height hole/tunnel is illegal. Kudos to RB for clever out of the box thinking.

#5 Anomnader

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:12

Can you explain: 100mm height tunnel when 100mm height hole/tunnel is illegal

A bit better please.

#6 sumpthy

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:15

Why don't Red Bull try not cheating for once?

#7 jrg19

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:19

I guess we could say they are just doing the best job atm.

#8 Wlleiotl

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:21

hasnt heath come out with this rubbish before?

#9 Fastcake

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:22

You know I hope Red Bull get hit hard for this. It's getting extremely tiring having legality discussions every weekend, so if they are doing something illegal a disqualification might convince everyone to behave for a few races.

#10 JockinSA

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:23


And if they have found a new method of doing their floors, Bl..dy good luck to them! To me it just shows that the rest of the grid's design teams are not in the same ballpark. All that it shows is that the rest of them are whiners and moaners because they have not got the nowse to do the same. Oh and before anyone says that I am biased towards Red Bull, forget it. As far as I am concerned the whole lot of them are just a bunch of "Hollywood " actors playing at going motoracing, but the moment anyone there does something to adjust the script because they have the brains to do it then everyone shouts foul because the ending does not suit the film. And that includes all of the "Fan Boys" that scribble here. Oh and as so many people here are so omniscient with regards to the whys and wherefores of the technology used in this game, please tell us oh so lowly morons how you would do better than Charlie Whiting in a concise and factual manner. Having met the bloke on a number of occasions, and dealt with him, I find that the sneering and bad mouthing that goes on on this site is rather puerile. My opinion is that if you don't know what the ins and outs are, either keep quiet or find out the facts before yaps are opened.



#11 Dalin80

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:24

The holes in the bodywork above the floor and infront of the rear wheels have always struck me as a grey area and red bull certainly dont mind pushing the rule book so to speak so it wouldnt be a massive surprise if the FIA have to clean up a few details again.

#12 krapmeister

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:25

RB are always thinking on the limit of the rules. Always. Aside from the off-throttle, look at the duct. Another very clever interpretation of the rules. Red Bull are using the ramp to loophole the 50mm minimum radius rule and have a 100mm height tunnel when 100mm height hole/tunnel is illegal. Kudos to RB for clever out of the box thinking.


:up:

And they aren't the only ones to push the limits - in recent years F-duct (Mclaren), DD (Brawn) and DDRS (Merc) are but 3 examples. Just what F1 should be about...

#13 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:27

:up:

And they aren't the only ones to push the limits - in recent years F-duct (Mclaren), DD (Brawn) and DDRS (Merc) are but 3 examples. Just what F1 should be about...


I'm not a fan of RB, but I totally agree.

#14 kosmos

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:30

Why don't Red Bull try not cheating for once?



If the other teams know that RB is cheating, why they don't do the same?, is because they are not smart enough?.

#15 hulmerist

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:31

Why don't Red Bull try not cheating for once?


because they're getting away with it? that's what f1 is about and they know it's unlikely that a race result will be changed like in monaco, they'll just be told not to do it in future

#16 Bloggsworth

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:36

:up:

And they aren't the only ones to push the limits - in recent years F-duct (Mclaren), DD (Brawn) and DDRS (Merc) are but 3 examples. Just what F1 should be about...



Not quite. The F Duct was not within the purview of the rules as they existed, neither was the double-diffuser, they were both a result of "Thinking outside the box" - On the other hand, exhaust blowing is specifically excluded.

#17 krapmeister

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:39

Not quite. The F Duct was not within the purview of the rules as they existed, neither was the double-diffuser, they were both a result of "Thinking outside the box" - On the other hand, exhaust blowing is specifically excluded.


TBH I was more referring to the tunnel rather than the exhaust blowing when I said that, my bad - but as I posted earlier, if they are exhaust blowing as deemed illegal by the rules then surely it is an easy spot for the FIA with the SECU?

#18 Bloggsworth

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:41

TBH I was more referring to the tunnel rather than the exhaust blowing when I said that, my bad - but as I posted earlier, if they are exhaust blowing as deemed illegal by the rules then surely it is an easy spot for the FIA with the SECU?


Ever had a conversation with a lawyer? They are trained to make you believe that black is white...

#19 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:41

Briton Hamilton is quoted by the newspaper as saying: "You only have to look at his car to know where the big gap comes from."


This is classic Hamilton. If he isnt on pole its because someone has a hugely better car than him. Always the same. He has had the best car all Season. Qualifying results show that. He was just schooled yesterday by a qualifying and F1 master.

Well done RB :up: They have really improved their car so that it is now on equal pace with Mclaren. Their drivers are doing a much better job. And as usual the whingers crawl out ....

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#20 BernieEc

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:45

This is classic Hamilton. If he isnt on pole its because someone has a hugely better car than him. Always the same. He has had the best car all Season. Qualifying results show that. He was just schooled yesterday by a qualifying and F1 master.

Well done RB :up: They have really improved their car so that it is now on equal pace with Mclaren. Their drivers are doing a much better job. And as usual the whingers crawl out ....


I luv the way you make it seem like drivers at red bull are approaching god status. LH qualifies on the front grid and its the car....but when vetted does its down to his mastery.....not really the car...or the upgrades they just slapped....try and be a bit more objective please!!

#21 Anomnader

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:47

I luv the way you make it seem like drivers at red bull are approaching god status. LH qualifies on the front grid and its the car....but when vetted does its down to his mastery.....not really the car...or the upgrades they just slapped....try and be a bit more objective please!!


:up: :up:

#22 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:49

I luv the way you make it seem like drivers at red bull are approaching god status. LH qualifies on the front grid and its the car....but when vetted does its down to his mastery.....not really the car...or the upgrades they just slapped....try and be a bit more objective please!!


Maybe you should be telling that to Lewis too.

#23 sumpthy

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:49

If the other teams know that RB is cheating, why they don't do the same?, is because they are not smart enough?.


Because McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes et al don't cheat because they have the morals that come with being proper race teams and not an unscrupulous corporate energy drinks giant of course.

#24 Anomnader

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:50

Because McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes et al don't cheat because they have the morals that come with being proper race teams and not an unscrupulous corporate energy drinks giant of course.


You got it :D

#25 krapmeister

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:50

I luv the way you make it seem like drivers at red bull are approaching god status. LH qualifies on the front grid and its the car....but when vetted does its down to his mastery.....not really the car...or the upgrades they just slapped....try and be a bit more objective please!!


Well TBF I don't see Webber getting a mention...

#26 ayali

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:50

If you can't beat em whine about em right :lol:
Gotta love the Newey approach
Kudos to Red Bull

:cool:

#27 krapmeister

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:52

You got it :D


*cough* spygate *cough* liegate *cough*

#28 sumpthy

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:53

Well TBF I don't see Webber getting a mention...


Red Bull give Webber a repainted Toro Rosso to make Vettel look better. Everyone knows that.

#29 WTGL

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:53

Legality rumours? :rolleyes: Look at the pole laps, it's obvious Vettel was driving better, hugging the barrier by around 5 meters closer than Hamilton who choked yet again with the fastest car. Where was Webber with this mystical floor ???

#30 krapmeister

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:54

Red Bull give Webber a repainted Toro Rosso to make Vettel look better. Everyone knows that.


:lol:

#31 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:56

Legality rumours? :rolleyes: Look at the pole laps, it's obvious Vettel was driving better, hugging the barrier by around 5 meters closer than Hamilton who choked yet again with the fastest car. Where was Webber with this mystical floor ???


:up:

Although Webber had huge problems with his car so he didnt do anything wrong. Having no DRS is quali is gonna make it pretty hard.

Red Bull drivers are killing it this year.

#32 alframsey

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:59

Legality rumours? :rolleyes: Look at the pole laps, it's obvious Vettel was driving better, hugging the barrier by around 5 meters closer than Hamilton who choked yet again with the fastest car. Where was Webber with this mystical floor ???

You really believe McLaren have the fastest car at this circuit? No chance.

#33 JockinSA

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 12:13

You got it :D


Just as a matter of interest, is your acronym based on the fact that you are trying to be another Ralph Nader? Reason I ask this is that your feeds sound just like him, using inuendo, half truths and other methods to try and get your point across. And look and what happened to him in the light of history.

#34 f1rules

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 12:26

about the new rear package i don't know, but the off throttle, i think it will be impossible to hide, due to the ecu

#35 Anomnader

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 12:36

Just as a matter of interest, is your acronym based on the fact that you are trying to be another Ralph Nader? Reason I ask this is that your feeds sound just like him, using inuendo, half truths and other methods to try and get your point across. And look and what happened to him in the light of history.


Nope don't know even who he is? Half truths? hmm better that then the full on trolling and lying annd bashing main see to do.

for your information I didn't make anything up in this thread, if you want to point it out?

Unless you think denying that McLaren is the fastest car of the field is a lie?

Edited by Anomnader, 24 June 2012 - 12:37.


#36 Goron3

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 13:16

Just spotted this thread and yes, I'm at the race (have been all weekend) and RB are clearly blowing their diffuser again but it doesn't sound anywhere near as bad as it did last year when I was at silverstone.

I know it gives the Red Bull some extra pace (hence Vettels pace) but does the extra downforce helps look after the tyres?

#37 JockinSA

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 14:14

Nope don't know even who he is? Half truths? hmm better that then the full on trolling and lying annd bashing main see to do.

for your information I didn't make anything up in this thread, if you want to point it out?

Unless you think denying that McLaren is the fastest car of the field is a lie?


First, then I suggest that you look up who Ralph Nader was in the field of automotive history, and how he twisted the truth to get his desired result, right or wrong. Second, please reread your opening thread statement and the way you have headed it very carefully. It reads to me as the ultimate in inuendo. Half truths are defined as the passing of information that may have some truth used to create an impression of right or wrong doing with out the actuality of the actual truth being displayed, for ones own benefit. You have taken other peoples comments, whole or partial, in your opener to give credence to your position on this matter without you giving your personal reasoning in following these clips. This is the foundation of propaganda dissemination.
As to whether the McLaren is the fastest car out there today, I could not give a tinkers. If it is, then the drivers are not up to giving their best, would you not say? Other wise they would be in P1 and P2 would they not? Objectively then they could not have been the fastest cars out there during qualifying could they?
I repeat again that a lot of people who post should think objectively about what they are saying before they put "pen to paper" and imo look utterly ridiculous in the final analysis of the subject under discussion.

#38 Starish

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 14:30

Just spotted this thread and yes, I'm at the race (have been all weekend) and RB are clearly blowing their diffuser again but it doesn't sound anywhere near as bad as it did last year when I was at silverstone.

I know it gives the Red Bull some extra pace (hence Vettels pace) but does the extra downforce helps look after the tyres?

Didn''t have off throttle at Silverstone last year -.-

#39 PassWind

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 14:52

Someone should write to Mr Heath on a face palm card, off throttle blowing is not banned.

And these some sources are pretty darn hard to find on the floor, other than the tidbits about how Lewis felt about hit race potential not much to see here if anything at all.

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#40 Octavian

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 14:58

As I said on the RBR thread - it seem the tactic from them this year is to introduce a quasi legal device on a car, enjoy an advantage for a couple of race (they'd have won today with this new floor and obviously they won with the floor slot in Bahrain) knowing that it will be banned under a clarification but they wont be penalised for it. Clever tactic but I don't like it, I wouldn't like it from any team - I think in future penalties should be introduced.

As for off throttle blowing - it's totally disgusting that teams are still trying to implement this to whatever degree.

#41 Octavian

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 15:54

Posted Image

Here's the new floor. Ingenious!

#42 Group B

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 16:39

Just spotted this thread and yes, I'm at the race (have been all weekend) and RB are clearly blowing their diffuser again but it doesn't sound anywhere near as bad as it did last year when I was at silverstone.

I know it gives the Red Bull some extra pace (hence Vettels pace) but does the extra downforce helps look after the tyres?

If you can hear it so can everyone else, which means the other teams can either join in or protest.

I find it interesting that the people who's hearing is apparently most accute just happen to be foruming fans of Vettel's chief competition.

#43 CHIUNDA

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 16:48

Maybe you should be telling that to Lewis too.


Wasn't aware McLaren had performance upgrades on the car this weekend. Please enlighten.

#44 CHIUNDA

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 16:51

Legality rumours? :rolleyes: Look at the pole laps, it's obvious Vettel was driving better, hugging the barrier by around 5 meters closer than Hamilton who choked yet again with the fastest car. Where was Webber with this mystical floor ???


And where has Button been with this mythical fastest car?

#45 CHIUNDA

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 17:02

As I said on the RBR thread - it seem the tactic from them this year is to introduce a quasi legal device on a car, enjoy an advantage for a couple of race (they'd have won today with this new floor and obviously they won with the floor slot in Bahrain) knowing that it will be banned under a clarification but they wont be penalised for it. Clever tactic but I don't like it, I wouldn't like it from any team - I think in future penalties should be introduced.

As for off throttle blowing - it's totally disgusting that teams are still trying to implement this to whatever degree.


TBH that is brilliant ... there are few teams, one in particular that i would like to display this kind of strategic "thinking out of the box" - but that is just me wishing. McLaren ... i am looking at you

#46 cilurnum

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 17:07

If the other teams know that RB is cheating, why they don't do the same?, is because they are not smart enough?.

Yep, that's about the size of it. If other teams can't manage it it's cheating.

#47 PaulC2K

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 18:08

And if they have found a new method of doing their floors, Bl..dy good luck to them! To me it just shows that the rest of the grid's design teams are not in the same ballpark. All that it shows is that the rest of them are whiners and moaners because they have not got the nowse to do the same. Oh and before anyone says that I am biased towards Red Bull, forget it. As far as I am concerned the whole lot of them are just a bunch of "Hollywood " actors playing at going motoracing, but the moment anyone there does something to adjust the script because they have the brains to do it then everyone shouts foul because the ending does not suit the film. And that includes all of the "Fan Boys" that scribble here. Oh and as so many people here are so omniscient with regards to the whys and wherefores of the technology used in this game, please tell us oh so lowly morons how you would do better than Charlie Whiting in a concise and factual manner. Having met the bloke on a number of occasions, and dealt with him, I find that the sneering and bad mouthing that goes on on this site is rather puerile. My opinion is that if you don't know what the ins and outs are, either keep quiet or find out the facts before yaps are opened.

Well congrats on doing a great job of upping the standards on here! You've clearly no interest in F1, but you have got an interest in insulting peoples views, on subjects your quite happy to insult. Thank goodness you're above all that childishness.

First, then I suggest that you look up who Ralph Nader was in the field of automotive history, and how he twisted the truth to get his desired result, right or wrong. Second, please reread your opening thread statement and the way you have headed it very carefully. It reads to me as the ultimate in inuendo. Half truths are defined as the passing of information that may have some truth used to create an impression of right or wrong doing with out the actuality of the actual truth being displayed, for ones own benefit. You have taken other peoples comments, whole or partial, in your opener to give credence to your position on this matter without you giving your personal reasoning in following these clips. This is the foundation of propaganda dissemination.
As to whether the McLaren is the fastest car out there today, I could not give a tinkers. If it is, then the drivers are not up to giving their best, would you not say? Other wise they would be in P1 and P2 would they not? Objectively then they could not have been the fastest cars out there during qualifying could they?
I repeat again that a lot of people who post should think objectively about what they are saying before they put "pen to paper" and imo look utterly ridiculous in the final analysis of the subject under discussion.

Says the person attacking someone for posting a copy & paste of another sites article, and providing the source for it. Its their wording, from their header and the entire article story. HE hasnt taken other peoples comments (bla bla bla) to make his point, the ARTICLE has, to make THEIR point. Why should the OP back up their comments, do i now have to back up the nonsense you've come out with, because i've quoted you??
Whoever Nader was, and whether or not he twisted the truth, is irrelevant IMO but if you want to go on your little crusade maybe you should aim it at the person who wrote what you're 'snearing and bad mouthing' about. You might want to look up what your getting your knickers in a twist over, because its not a 'Jock' in SA you're coming across as. :rolleyes:

#48 Jon83

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 18:13

Why don't Red Bull try not cheating for once?


When have RBR "cheated" can I ask?

#49 sumpthy

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 18:19

When have RBR "cheated" can I ask?


When have RBR not cheated?

#50 Mc_Silver

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 18:20

When have RBR not cheated?


:rotfl: