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Kimi vs Grosjean 2012 [merged]


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Poll: Kimi vs Grosjean 2012 [merged] (308 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will score first so much desired win for Lotus team?

  1. Kimi (186 votes [60.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 60.59%

  2. Romain (82 votes [26.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.71%

  3. They won't win (39 votes [12.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.70%

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#1251 Wander

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 21:45

Grosjean's Valencia and Canada performances were brilliant though and he was legitimately better in those races than Räikkönen. With the recent races having gone the way they have, though, I just wonder if that is going to be repeated again any time soon.

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#1252 908T

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 21:56

Anyone else remember the time when Romain was leading this poll?

I know, right?!

Too bad Iotar is not around anymore. I would've loved to hear his story of how things have gone in the last couple of races!

Do not be stupid! Ofcourse he is here. Just check out all the "new" ID:s that write more than 50 messages per 24 hours.... :rotfl:

#1253 midgrid

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 21:56

Race suspensions:

Grosjean 1 - 0 Raikkonen

Romain on top again!

:p

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

Edited by midgrid, 02 September 2012 - 21:57.


#1254 Mauseri

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 21:58

Grosjean's Valencia and Canada performances were brilliant though and he was legitimately better in those races than Räikkönen. With the recent races having gone the way they have, though, I just wonder if that is going to be repeated again any time soon.

Well, judging from Button weekend, things may change rapidly in a dramatic way. It's clear that Romain can be fast, but in the odd case when he was faster than Kimi, it was a case of Kimi having poor weekend....

#1255 908T

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 22:09

Well, judging from Button weekend, things may change rapidly in a dramatic way. It's clear that Romain can be fast, but in the odd case when he was faster than Kimi, it was a case of Kimi having poor weekend....

Well, exactly. He is very fast when there is nobody close to his car, but the main problem is that he can not react to what is happening around him. Maybe he can not see or guess the things happening around him? :confused:

#1256 The Kanisteri

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 10:18

Do we need thread Kimi vs Jerome d´Ambrosio 2012 now?

All you happy chaps can join in that thread to discuss how Mr. d´Ambrosio wipes floor with Räikkönen...;)

#1257 Anderis

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:01

As far as Raikkonen leading Grosjean in WDC is deserved at the moment, Grosjean was undoubtedly quicker driver before Hungarian GP. If not the failure in Valencia, he would be leading Raikkonen in standings after that race, despite couple of the 1st lap accidents. If not those accidents, he would be leading Kimi even more clearly.

And although F1 is not only about speed, but about bringing points home and that's why I confess Raikkonen has deservedly more points than Grosjean, who was doing unpredictable things on 1st lap too often. But some of Kimi's fans don't want to see that Grosjean was quicker driver in the first part of this season, saying that Grosjean had advantage only in quali but in races Kimi was much better, which was not always true. There were several races that Raikkonen was quicker than Grosjean, but there were also several races where Grosjean had better pace or at least could manage the advantage from quali to the end of the race, making him at least a match for Raikkonen before Germany.

All in all, it seems that Raikkonen has the edge over Grosjean since Hungary, but his struggles against Grosjean in first half of the year made me think his start of the season wasn't as good as some want to think. The big Kimi's advantage is that he can stay out of the trouble and rarely make mistakes. But his pace isn't consistently astonishing as some want to believe. ;)

#1258 spinster

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:10

As far as Raikkonen leading Grosjean in WDC is deserved at the moment, Grosjean was undoubtedly quicker driver before Hungarian GP. If not the failure in Valencia, he would be leading Raikkonen in standings after that race, despite couple of the 1st lap accidents. If not those accidents, he would be leading Kimi even more clearly.

And although F1 is not only about speed, but about bringing points home and that's why I confess Raikkonen has deservedly more points than Grosjean, who was doing unpredictable things on 1st lap too often. But some of Kimi's fans don't want to see that Grosjean was quicker driver in the first part of this season, saying that Grosjean had advantage only in quali but in races Kimi was much better, which was not always true. There were several races that Raikkonen was quicker than Grosjean, but there were also several races where Grosjean had better pace or at least could manage the advantage from quali to the end of the race, making him at least a match for Raikkonen before Germany.

All in all, it seems that Raikkonen has the edge over Grosjean since Hungary, but his struggles against Grosjean in first half of the year made me think his start of the season wasn't as good as some want to think. The big Kimi's advantage is that he can stay out of the trouble and rarely make mistakes. But his pace isn't consistently astonishing as some want to believe.;)


I hope you are joking not even worth an answer on this

#1259 korzeniow

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:23

I hope you are joking not even worth an answer on this


So why are you replying in first place?

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#1260 wiry

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:26

I hope you are joking not even worth an answer on this

:D i think he's still bitter that Kimi chose not to sign with his team and preferred Lotus to them.

#1261 spinster

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:36

So why are you replying in first place?


Because i cant understand people writing this kind of things

#1262 korzeniow

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:48

Because i cant understand people writing this kind of things


Well, I already see two post that try to ridicule an author and his arguments but I don't see any counter arguments.

#1263 spinster

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:58

Well, I already see two post that try to ridicule an author and his arguments but I don't see any counter arguments.


because I said I don't want to even have it a go and post counter arguments...

#1264 FenderJaguar

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:58

Grosjean was undoubtedly quicker driver before Hungarian GP


I don't agree. Grosjean was very quick on several tracks but he wasn't quicker in Malaysia, China or Bahrain. Not really. He didn't have that much time to show how much slower he was in Malaysia but that's another story. In China it was the tiregamble that let Kimi down.
I think Kimi was the quicker driver in Barcelona as well btw.

The races where Grosjean had the edge was around Monaco, Canada and maybe Valencia. But more so in qualifying pace. From Silverstone and onwards I think Kimi has been on it. Germany was great from Kimi and very poor from Grosjean. In Hungary Kimi pulled out some magic laps.

But I think it is correct that Kimi is more on it from Silverstone and onwards and that he is closer to his true potential than what he was at the beginning of the year. But I don't see that as a sign of weakness. It's really good to be on it just a couple of races into a season having had a break for 2 years.

Add to that some of the racing that Kimi has done like the pass into Eau Rouge yesterday. He is definitely one of the best racers out there.

Edited by FenderJaguar, 03 September 2012 - 12:43.


#1265 ScuderiaSV1

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:06

Well, I already see two post that try to ridicule an author and his arguments but I don't see any counter arguments.


In order to be considered 'quicker,' you actually have to compete in the race.

Australia - retire Lap 1
Malaysia - retire Lap 3
Monaco - retire Lap 1
Valencia - retire Lap 40 (though no fault of his own)
SPA - retire Lap 1

The only races Romain actually outperformed Kimi was Canada and Valencia IMO. He only finished ahead of Kimi in China because of a strategy gamble. I bet Lotus would love to have that decision back now given their position in the WDC standings.

I'm not sure how he came to the conclusion that Romain was outperforming Kimi up to that point. You don't get points on Saturday

Edited by ScuderiaSV1, 03 September 2012 - 12:07.


#1266 Ze Bum

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:06

I think there are only 2 races where Grosjean has had better race pace than Kimi: Canada and Valencia.

In all other races he's been slower or crashed.


#1267 Vesuvius

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:09

As far as Raikkonen leading Grosjean in WDC is deserved at the moment, Grosjean was undoubtedly quicker driver before Hungarian GP. If not the failure in Valencia, he would be leading Raikkonen in standings after that race, despite couple of the 1st lap accidents. If not those accidents, he would be leading Kimi even more clearly.

And although F1 is not only about speed, but about bringing points home and that's why I confess Raikkonen has deservedly more points than Grosjean, who was doing unpredictable things on 1st lap too often. But some of Kimi's fans don't want to see that Grosjean was quicker driver in the first part of this season, saying that Grosjean had advantage only in quali but in races Kimi was much better, which was not always true. There were several races that Raikkonen was quicker than Grosjean, but there were also several races where Grosjean had better pace or at least could manage the advantage from quali to the end of the race, making him at least a match for Raikkonen before Germany.

All in all, it seems that Raikkonen has the edge over Grosjean since Hungary, but his struggles against Grosjean in first half of the year made me think his start of the season wasn't as good as some want to think. The big Kimi's advantage is that he can stay out of the trouble and rarely make mistakes. But his pace isn't consistently astonishing as some want to believe.;)


only races were Grosjean has been faster than Kimi have been Valencia and Montreal and even in those tracks Kimi was stuck behind traffic so his speed coudln't really be compared to Grosjean who had free air.

#1268 spinster

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:10

only races were Grosjean has been faster than Kimi have been Valencia and Montreal and even in those tracks Kimi was stuck behind traffic so his speed coudln't really be compared to Grosjean who had free air.


@korzeniow

other people give you the reasons ;-)

#1269 Torsion

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:34

As far as Raikkonen leading Grosjean in WDC is deserved at the moment, Grosjean was undoubtedly quicker driver before Hungarian GP. If not the failure in Valencia, he would be leading Raikkonen in standings after that race, despite couple of the 1st lap accidents. If not those accidents, he would be leading Kimi even more clearly.

And although F1 is not only about speed, but about bringing points home and that's why I confess Raikkonen has deservedly more points than Grosjean, who was doing unpredictable things on 1st lap too often. But some of Kimi's fans don't want to see that Grosjean was quicker driver in the first part of this season, saying that Grosjean had advantage only in quali but in races Kimi was much better, which was not always true. There were several races that Raikkonen was quicker than Grosjean, but there were also several races where Grosjean had better pace or at least could manage the advantage from quali to the end of the race, making him at least a match for Raikkonen before Germany.

All in all, it seems that Raikkonen has the edge over Grosjean since Hungary, but his struggles against Grosjean in first half of the year made me think his start of the season wasn't as good as some want to think. The big Kimi's advantage is that he can stay out of the trouble and rarely make mistakes. But his pace isn't consistently astonishing as some want to believe.;)



While I really hope to see Romain do well in F1, I don't think based on what we have seen this year, you can call him faster than Kimi. What is the point of being aggressive, if that speed/driving style causes him to crash 7/12 times? We can call him fast if his speed is controlled and reliable.

Having said that Romain did outperform Kimi on a couple of races, which is perfectly natural between team mates, but hardly makes him faster than the Kimster as you claim, I feel.

#1270 BackOnTop

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:46

The poll would have been irrelevant if it weren't for the alternator failure at Valencia; Grosjean would likely have won that race, he was in a strong position to retake the position from Alonso.

Despite his errors this season, people need to remember Grosjean has also had his share of excellent drives. However, many will allow their anger to cloud their judgement and see Grosjean solely as the causer of an unfortunate incident.

More like he was in a strong position to T-Bone Alonso in Valencia itself. Opportunity missed :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#1271 korzeniow

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:53

@korzeniow

other people give you the reasons ;-)


I didn't need any arguments, I wasn't agreeing with anyone, I just don't like that style of debate

#1272 spinster

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 13:09

I didn't need any arguments, I wasn't agreeing with anyone, I just don't like that style of debate


i'm sorry for that :)

#1273 MP422

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 13:14

As far as Raikkonen leading Grosjean in WDC is deserved at the moment, Grosjean was undoubtedly quicker driver before Hungarian GP. If not the failure in Valencia, he would be leading Raikkonen in standings after that race, despite couple of the 1st lap accidents. If not those accidents, he would be leading Kimi even more clearly.

And although F1 is not only about speed, but about bringing points home and that's why I confess Raikkonen has deservedly more points than Grosjean, who was doing unpredictable things on 1st lap too often. But some of Kimi's fans don't want to see that Grosjean was quicker driver in the first part of this season, saying that Grosjean had advantage only in quali but in races Kimi was much better, which was not always true. There were several races that Raikkonen was quicker than Grosjean, but there were also several races where Grosjean had better pace or at least could manage the advantage from quali to the end of the race, making him at least a match for Raikkonen before Germany.

All in all, it seems that Raikkonen has the edge over Grosjean since Hungary, but his struggles against Grosjean in first half of the year made me think his start of the season wasn't as good as some want to think. The big Kimi's advantage is that he can stay out of the trouble and rarely make mistakes. But his pace isn't consistently astonishing as some want to believe.;)



They say the same for Alonso and hail him as sooo complete and amazing... cause he brings home the points and rarely makes mistakes.

#1274 BackOnTop

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 16:02

Well, judging from Button weekend, things may change rapidly in a dramatic way. It's clear that Romain can be fast, but in the odd case when he was faster than Kimi, it was a case of Kimi having poor weekend....

So can Maldonado, Perez, Kobayashi!

It still doesn't make them anywhere near being compared to the 6 World Champions on the grid. All 6 are way beyond what these guys are doing when they first got into F1 themselves.

I did not hear Peter Sauber say..
-we need to keep Kimi's "Mental State" intact....
-that Kimi can be forgiven of crashes because he's a rookie...
-that a "Race Ban" is gonna help Kimi realize his folly..

All Kimi Raikkonen did was drive quick in his first year and sign a contract with Mclaren. :up: :up:

Also, how long will these guys keep getting opportunities to get it right. During Kimi-Alonso early days, they would have been kicked out of the team for damaging so many cars that cost millions to make/repair & deflating overall team morale with stupidity. These days sponsors & team principle contacts prolong careers of drivers like Maldonado while a potentially quick Bottas has to sit and watch Maldo & Grosjean wreck their cars every other week.

Must be highly deflating. I can safely say that Bottas would not be crashing like Gro. But I won't be proved right/wrong because Bottas has no money to pay.

Edited by BackOnTop, 03 September 2012 - 16:11.


#1275 Hayden

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 21:47

So can Maldonado, Perez, Kobayashi!

It still doesn't make them anywhere near being compared to the 6 World Champions on the grid. All 6 are way beyond what these guys are doing when they first got into F1 themselves.

I did not hear Peter Sauber say..
-we need to keep Kimi's "Mental State" intact....
-that Kimi can be forgiven of crashes because he's a rookie...
-that a "Race Ban" is gonna help Kimi realize his folly..

All Kimi Raikkonen did was drive quick in his first year and sign a contract with Mclaren. :up: :up:

Also, how long will these guys keep getting opportunities to get it right. During Kimi-Alonso early days, they would have been kicked out of the team for damaging so many cars that cost millions to make/repair & deflating overall team morale with stupidity. These days sponsors & team principle contacts prolong careers of drivers like Maldonado while a potentially quick Bottas has to sit and watch Maldo & Grosjean wreck their cars every other week.

Must be highly deflating. I can safely say that Bottas would not be crashing like Gro. But I won't be proved right/wrong because Bottas has no money to pay.

:up: :up: :up: :up:

#1276 DarkknightRises

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 01:50

lmao, how can 1 claim romain is faster than Kimi when all the amazing pace of E20 was only shown on kimi 's cockpit???

In valencia and silverstone, Romain had upgrades on his car while kimi had to wait for his turn, still, without being forced wide by maldonado and romain during the start, i believe kimi will be up there at the beginning and challenge vettel and not stuck behind traffic.

Also, ever since Kimi said he found his own setup in hockenheim, Romain has been falling behind ~~ he only outqualify kimi in hungary when kimi made wrong setup choices in Q3~b4 that, kimi was 3-4tenth faster than him...again during the race, romain had absolutely no edge against kimi, especially the final stint~!! the only race when romain was owning kimi is monaco~~ and still, kimi was facing problem with his steering, and didnt manage to do any fps~~

so in conclusion, idk how some can claim romain is faster than kimi???

in fact, kimi gonna start to show more and more speed from him as he's getting used to the E20 cockpit !

This season has just started for kimi

Edited by DarkknightRises, 04 September 2012 - 01:51.


#1277 aditya-now

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 02:03

This season has just started for kimi


And he has already once made up a one win/one second place deficit in points to still take the WDC with just two races to go....

#1278 wrcva

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 02:10

So can Maldonado, Perez, Kobayashi!

It still doesn't make them anywhere near being compared to the 6 World Champions on the grid. All 6 are way beyond what these guys are doing when they first got into F1 themselves.

I did not hear Peter Sauber say..
-we need to keep Kimi's "Mental State" intact....
-that Kimi can be forgiven of crashes because he's a rookie...
-that a "Race Ban" is gonna help Kimi realize his folly..

All Kimi Raikkonen did was drive quick in his first year and sign a contract with Mclaren. :up: :up:

Also, how long will these guys keep getting opportunities to get it right. During Kimi-Alonso early days, they would have been kicked out of the team for damaging so many cars that cost millions to make/repair & deflating overall team morale with stupidity. These days sponsors & team principle contacts prolong careers of drivers like Maldonado while a potentially quick Bottas has to sit and watch Maldo & Grosjean wreck their cars every other week.

Must be highly deflating. I can safely say that Bottas would not be crashing like Gro. But I won't be proved right/wrong because Bottas has no money to pay.


Great post! :up:

#1279 Wander

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 20:54

Qualifying head to head now 8-6 for Grosjean. (All results with both drivers present counted regardless of any car issues etc.)

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#1280 Mauseri

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:23

Qualifying head to head now 8-6 for Grosjean. (All results with both drivers present counted regardless of any car issues etc.)

Too bad race finish something like 14-2 for Kimi. But to Romains credit, when he finishes, he is not far off, even if behind. Will be great driver with some more experience to handle the pressure. You can make a fast driver win races and championship, but with a slow one, it's more difficult. If Romain can survive this rough period, he will become a force in my opinion. As a Kimi fan I cannot put myself into denial about that. It could well hit a rock back.

Edited by Mauseri, 13 October 2012 - 21:26.


#1281 weareracing

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:35

Totally agree with Mauseri, the quali stat is largely, but not wholely, irrelevant.
Race-day is what counts and when Romain negotiates the opening few laps HE DELIVERS.
Imagine the Championship positions for Lotus AND Romain if he had consistently negotiated those first few laps.
Makes a BIG DIFFERENCE in revenue terms at the end of the season, probably worth more than the income received from TOTAL sponsorship.
Just a thought.

#1282 Niceone

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:49

Kimi - Finished 100% of race laps this year (only driver whose managed to do this)
Romain - Finished 66% of race laps this year

#1283 Trust

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:20

Anyone writing the score?
Results in qualifying is what interests me.

Just pure results, no ifs, coulds, shoulds etc.


Thanks.

#1284 Lord_Shaitan

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:18

Grosjean - Raikkonen 10:6

#1285 wiry

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:25

Grosjean - Raikkonen 10:6

nope, it is 9-7 (not counting Italian GP, of course)

Edited by wiry, 28 October 2012 - 14:26.


#1286 Vesuvius

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:27

Yup 9-7 quali battle, race battle have been already won by Kimi.

#1287 Trust

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:27

So Kimi needs to win all three remaining races to come on top. I'm not sure should I count Monza because Romain wasn't driving there, even though he was guilty for that.

EDIT: Vesuvius and how much is in races?

Edited by Trust, 28 October 2012 - 14:28.


#1288 artista

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:30

Grosjean - Raikkonen 10:6

Don't take it personally, it has really nothing to do with you, but I keep not understanding why on earth Malaysia counts for Grosjean when Qualifying result was Räikkönen 5th and Grosjean 7th.


#1289 Vesuvius

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:35

So Kimi needs to win all three remaining races to come on top. I'm not sure should I count Monza because Romain wasn't driving there, even though he was guilty for that.

EDIT: Vesuvius and how much is in races?


Races are 8-2 for Kimi ( that's when both have finished) when we count all races despitate DNF's it's 15-2 for Kimi.

#1290 darkkis

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:00

It would be ridiculous not to count the DNFs as they've been mainly Grosjean's own fault. :rolleyes:

#1291 Muppetmad

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:04

Some DNFs, such as Valencia, weren't Romain's fault though - I imagine it'd be fairly easy to go through the DNFs and ascertain which were his fault and which weren't.

#1292 Wander

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:13

Kimi has still destroyed Grosjean in the races. Qualifying performance more or less even.

#1293 Lord_Shaitan

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:12

Don't take it personally, it has really nothing to do with you, but I keep not understanding why on earth Malaysia counts for Grosjean when Qualifying result was Räikkönen 5th and Grosjean 7th.

You're right, sorry :blush: .

To clarify ;) . Please correct me if I'm wrong again.

As for Gro: 1. Gp Aus, 2. GP Bah, 3. Gp Spa, 4. Gp Mon, 5. Gp Can, 6. Gp Eur, 7. Gp Hun, 8. Gp Sin, 9. Gp Jap,
As for Rai: 1. GP Mal, 2. GP Chi, 3. Gp Gbr, 4. Gp Ger, 5. Gp Bel, 6.Gp Kor ,7. Gp Ind

#1294 artista

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:25

You're right, sorry :blush: .

To clarify ;) . Please correct me if I'm wrong again.

As for Gro: 1. Gp Aus, 2. GP Bah, 3. Gp Spa, 4. Gp Mon, 5. Gp Can, 6. Gp Eur, 7. Gp Hun, 8. Gp Sin, 9. Gp Jap,
As for Rai: 1. GP Mal, 2. GP Chi, 3. Gp Gbr, 4. Gp Ger, 5. Gp Bel, 6.Gp Kor ,7. Gp Ind

Oh, don't worry! It's not just you who says that. The guys of FOM do also write that on screen when they give the team-mate score, even if the official FIA documents give Räikkönen in front in Malaysia. That's why I said it was nothing personal against you or what you were saying :)

Yep, that's how I remember the list.

#1295 Topsu

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:08

Who will score first so much desired win for Lotus team?

It was Kimi.

#1296 Wingcommander

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:07

198 - 90. The other driver brings home points, the other one repair bills.

#1297 Topsu

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:45

198 - 90. The other driver brings home points, the other one repair bills.

I don't think the crash was Grosjean's fault. Still, a crash it was.

#1298 sniper80

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 19:11

Kimi has a way to stay out of trouble this year very much more than any other driver on the grid, that is remarkable. The only times getting near trouble was in Hungary with Grosjean leaving the pits, and with Alonso in Suzuka, which was a racing incident that ended badly for Alonso.

I also find the difference betweek Kimi & Romain getting bigger in the last couple of races. Maybe Kimster has more updates on the car, maybe he is fully back at 100% potential, or Romain is not 100% since his one race ban?

#1299 Trust

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 19:12

There is no need to put down Grosjean after Kimi's todays performance. Leave it up, boys.

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#1300 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 19:15

I also find the difference betweek Kimi & Romain getting bigger in the last couple of races. Maybe Kimster has more updates on the car, maybe he is fully back at 100% potential, or Romain is not 100% since his one race ban?

I think that's quite obvious. Romain is far too cautious now. It's even affecting his qualifying performances now, which isn't a good sign as that's where he usually shines.