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Why the Valencia safetycar?


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#1 908T

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 15:38

Why the Valencia safetycar?

No broken cars on the track, very little trash on the track.

So why the safetycar???

:confused:

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#2 Afterburner

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 15:41

I was wondering this during the race myself. They throw the SC for a few bits of debris but leave the marshals to fend for themselves when pushing Vettel's car off the track. Sounds legit. :drunk:

The immature conspiracy theorist in me says they wanted to take Vettel's lead away to make the race interesting, given Valencia's reputation as a snoozefest. :p

#3 D.M.N.

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 15:51

Why the Valencia safetycar?

No broken cars on the track, very little trash on the track.

So why the safetycar???

:confused:

I don't think they wanted to repeat what happened in the GP2 race:

#4 908T

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 16:01

I was wondering this during the race myself. They throw the SC for a few bits of debris but leave the marshals to fend for themselves when pushing Vettel's car off the track. Sounds legit. :drunk:

The immature conspiracy theorist in me says they wanted to take Vettel's lead away to make the race interesting, given Valencia's reputation as a snoozefest. :p

Yes. Very peculiar.
An unnecessary safetycar to cut off Vettel's lead but no safetycar after the Vettel DNF and the Grosjean DNF when we in fact had broken cars on the track.
As if somebody wanted another driver to win!

I just wonder what might have happened to the Alonso win if the safetycar had not come out unnecessarily but had come out after the Vettel and Grosjean DNF?

#5 ivand911

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 16:04

Still there is question why there was not SC when Vettel and RG parked their cars on the track? Was that to give locals something to celebrate about?
Some times SC comes out for something very small on the track, but in this case we have people on the track , and cars racing 5 meters from them.

#6 ExFlagMan

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 16:04

Chunks of broken wheel in the middle of the track at one of its fastest points with limited marshals access points to the track and no view of approaching cars - also well into the race so cars spread out all round the track. Would any of you want to be the one to go out and retrieve the bits?

#7 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 16:14

I think that the TR also lost part of the floor. So there was plenty of debris all over the track.

If a piece would have been stuck in a front wing or there would have been a puncture then the teams (or just RB) would have complained about no SC.

But there is no excuse for no SC after the Vettel retirement. That was beyond stupid.

Edited by Diablobb81, 25 June 2012 - 16:14.


#8 908T

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 16:15

Chunks of broken wheel in the middle of the track at one of its fastest points with limited marshals access points to the track and no view of approaching cars - also well into the race so cars spread out all round the track. Would any of you want to be the one to go out and retrieve the bits?

I do not remember seeing any chunks of a broken wheel in the middle of the track.
Could You point me to a link where there is a video that shows those chunks in the middle of the track?

#9 D.M.N.

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 16:19

But there is no excuse for no SC after the Vettel retirement. That was beyond stupid.

I think they thought they could clear it as there would have been a good 90 seconds before the cars came back around as they were all bunched together.

#10 Jon83

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 16:23

Perhaps had Vergne not tried to get back to the pits at full speed it wouldn't have been necessary? Perhaps still though.

I did flinch a little when I saw the marshals on track pulling Vettel's car our the way (I think it was that incident anyway) under waved yellow flags.

#11 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 16:24

I think they thought they could clear it as there would have been a good 90 seconds before the cars came back around as they were all bunched together.


That's what gets people killed.

http://www.youtube.c...tailpage#t=107s

#12 ExFlagMan

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 16:45

I do not remember seeing any chunks of a broken wheel in the middle of the track.

I recall seeing a large chunk in the track just after the accident - plus the fact that both cars had large chunks of wheel missing - the bits have to go somewhere.
Its probably not the larger bits you have to worry about, the drivers probably have a chance of seeing them, its the small bits and the strips of alloy that get machined off the wheels during the initial stages of contact that are a problem.

Could You point me to a link where there is a video that shows those chunks in the middle of the track?

No - cos I don't tend to spend my time trawling Youtube - and BCE will have pulled any videos anyway, if past events are any evidence.

#13 nemtudom

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:06

I think it's more interesting why there was no SC after Vettel's DNF. That was a really scary moment, the cars were going pretty fast and there can always be a careless driver like Alonso in Brazil in 2003.


#14 sesku

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:09

JEV drive too fast and spreading a lot of debris along the track. No marshall want to go to middle of circuit to clean the debris even under yellow flag, The car still move 100kph+. That why safety car was needed. Vettel and Grosjean parked theirs car at the side of the track making it "safe" enough for the marshal to push the car out of track under yellow flag.

#15 Les

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:10

That's what gets people killed.

http://www.youtube.c...tailpage#t=107s


The crazy thing is at 1:55 in the vid there is a green flag waving just behind the marshals pushing Vettels car!

#16 Pyrone89

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:23

Why the Valencia safetycar?

No broken cars on the track, very little trash on the track.

So why the safetycar???

:confused:

The track was full of debry. Driving on would be risking loads of broken cars (funny story that after the SC the 2 leaders actually stopped :D, but that is for a later moment).

#17 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:25

The question is why no SC on Vettel's stop...

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 25 June 2012 - 17:25.


#18 midgrid

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:25

There was a piece of wheel-rim on the racing line at the point of contact between Vergne and Kovalainen. I'm sure that Charlie Whiting didn't want to risk a repeat of Felipe Massa's 2009 injury.

#19 Pyrone89

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:30

The question is why no SC on Vettel's stop...

Good question, it should have been. That was some scary shit.

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#20 August

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:35

The race wasn't a show so they needed a show car.

#21 908T

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:38

There was a piece of wheel-rim on the racing line at the point of contact between Vergne and Kovalainen. I'm sure that Charlie Whiting didn't want to risk a repeat of Felipe Massa's 2009 injury.

Any video of that?

#22 RealRacing

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:39

See Valencia Race thread for some more opinions on this. It´s obvious F1 management wants F1 to be a show, increase viewership and, in general, making it a profitable enterprise is above sporting considerations. It does not hurt the track, which has faced criticism, if a local driver, and the whole pack, is able to close on the lead (which was big so the race was boring) in order to create a more exciting race (Indy and Nascar wrote the book on this). As for the SC absence during Vettel incident, it was not as necessary, the race was in its final stage, the local was leading, fans at the circuit are happy...

#23 908T

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:43

As for the SC absence during Vettel incident, it was not as necessary, the race was in its final stage, the local was leading, fans at the circuit are happy...

I see! Fair and sportsmanlike win....

#24 Massa

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:47

It's pathetic. It was a hard day for Ferrari and Alonso haters. :)

#25 Clatter

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:47

Still there is question why there was not SC when Vettel and RG parked their cars on the track? Was that to give locals something to celebrate about?
Some times SC comes out for something very small on the track, but in this case we have people on the track , and cars racing 5 meters from them.


The RG breakdown I can understand as he stopped right next to a gap, but the SV one was ridiculous.

#26 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:48

Slightly puzzled by the 'in it's final stages' comment a couple of posts ago, it was barely 5 laps after half distance that Vettel retired. Anyway, as soon as i saw the tyre flailing all over the place on Vergne's car I was pretty much certain that with a load of bits of tyre spread over the track that they'd bring out the SC.

#27 Clatter

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:50

JEV drive too fast and spreading a lot of debris along the track. No marshall want to go to middle of circuit to clean the debris even under yellow flag, The car still move 100kph+. That why safety car was needed. Vettel and Grosjean parked theirs car at the side of the track making it "safe" enough for the marshal to push the car out of track under yellow flag.


Grosjean yes, but Vettel? No way that could be considered a safe retrieval for the marshalls. It was probably the clearest case for the SC to be required that I have seen in a long time.

#28 Pyrone89

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:53

See Valencia Race thread for some more opinions on this. It´s obvious F1 management wants F1 to be a show, increase viewership and, in general, making it a profitable enterprise is above sporting considerations. It does not hurt the track, which has faced criticism, if a local driver, and the whole pack, is able to close on the lead (which was big so the race was boring) in order to create a more exciting race (Indy and Nascar wrote the book on this). As for the SC absence during Vettel incident, it was not as necessary, the race was in its final stage, the local was leading, fans at the circuit are happy...

Are you being sarcastic or do you really believe this?
If they wanted a show, they sure as hell would have helped a certain 7x WDC to add drama, and alot more than just a 3rd place.

#29 RealRacing

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:54

I see! Fair and sportsmanlike win....


Maybe, maybe not, but knowing F1 management, I would not put anything past them.


#30 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:55

Grosjean yes, but Vettel? No way that could be considered a safe retrieval for the marshalls. It was probably the clearest case for the SC to be required that I have seen in a long time.


I'd probably agree, as when you saw them moving it as the cars came past for the first time after he'd retired (ie the lap after he retired), they were pushing him along pretty close to the racing line. With Grosjean, I'm undecided. I can see why they didn't bring it out as he parked it partway into a gap, but you could argue that it wasn't the clearest view for the drivers coming round, so could've sort of understood it had they brought it out. Should've come out for Vettel though.

#31 Pyrone89

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:56

I'd probably agree, as when you saw them moving it as the cars came past for the first time after he'd retired (ie the lap after he retired), they were pushing him along pretty close to the racing line. With Grosjean, I'm undecided. I can see why they didn't bring it out as he parked it partway into a gap, but you could argue that it wasn't the clearest view for the drivers coming round, so could've sort of understood it had they brought it out. Should've come out for Vettel though.

Vettel was pretty clear. One slip up or contact like Senna and Perez(?) had and we would have 4 dead marshalls now.

#32 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:57

I see! Fair and sportsmanlike win....

And thats the REAL reason for starting this thread, wasn't it? I dont see why you didn't just come out and say it in the OP.

Anyways, the first safety car was perfectly understandable and it didn't help Alonso anymore than it helped Grosjean or Lewis.

So perhaps question why they didn't put out a SC for Vettel's car? Surely, that was to help their golden boy as well, right? Well, um....Alonso was leading. How can bunching up the pack behind him be good for Alonso? Alonso didn't need to pit again and neither did Lewis, Kimi or Grosjean so it wouldn't have changed a thing.

Conspiracy theories are fun, but I think some people should evaluate why they're looking for one here. I can only think of a couple reasons, and sour grapes is surely one of them.

#33 RealRacing

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:59

Are you being sarcastic or do you really believe this?
If they wanted a show, they sure as hell would have helped a certain 7x WDC to add drama, and alot more than just a 3rd place.


In terms of viewing figures and the local crowd being satisfied for paying an admisssion ticket, a local driver win is much better than a MS win (especially in a place where MS is not precisely loved).


#34 Clatter

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 17:59

See Valencia Race thread for some more opinions on this. It´s obvious F1 management wants F1 to be a show, increase viewership and, in general, making it a profitable enterprise is above sporting considerations. It does not hurt the track, which has faced criticism, if a local driver, and the whole pack, is able to close on the lead (which was big so the race was boring) in order to create a more exciting race (Indy and Nascar wrote the book on this). As for the SC absence during Vettel incident, it was not as necessary, the race was in its final stage, the local was leading, fans at the circuit are happy...


You have a strange view on what the final stages are.

#35 RealRacing

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:03

You have a strange view on what the final stages are.


It was close to 60% of the race, so more than half. I guess a better choice of words would have been, "the race was in its second and final half."

#36 Clatter

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:07

It was close to 60% of the race, so more than half. I guess a better choice of words would have been, "the race was in its second and final half."


So your saying a SC is not needed in the 2nd half a race? IMHO it doesn't matter what stage the race is in, if there is a clear and obvious danger then the SC should be used to protect lives. In the Vettel incident the Marshalls safety should never have been compromised like that.


#37 Zava

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:13

So perhaps question why they didn't put out a SC for Vettel's car? Surely, that was to help their golden boy as well, right? Well, um....Alonso was leading. How can bunching up the pack behind him be good for Alonso? Alonso didn't need to pit again and neither did Lewis, Kimi or Grosjean so it wouldn't have changed a thing.

you answered it for yourself. SC wouldn't be good for Alonso... and there was no SC for Vettel's car.

not saying it was to help Alonso, just pointing out the logic fail in that post.

#38 midgrid

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:18

Any video of that?


I have taken these two screenshots:

Posted Image Posted Image

I mis-remembered the piece of wheel-rim being on the racing line, but it's on the inside overtaking line in the DRS zone, where a car could still run over it and throw it up into the air.

#39 Alfisti

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:20

I mentioned it at the time in the race thread, i am absolutely GOBSMACKED they allowed marshals on the track to move vettel's car with the rest of them PELTING by directly in the line of fire.

been watching motor sport for 20 odd years, never seen anything remotely close to it. Absolutely staggered when i saw it.

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#40 908T

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:21

Conspiracy theories are fun, but I think some people should evaluate why they're looking for one here. I can only think of a couple reasons, and sour grapes is surely one of them.


Well, some sort of "everything always goes as it should " ? Fair and so on.
Sour grapes? You do not seem to remember Singapore 2008?

#41 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:22

you answered it for yourself. SC wouldn't be good for Alonso... and there was no SC for Vettel's car.

not saying it was to help Alonso, just pointing out the logic fail in that post.

Right, I dont know how that got by me. :lol: :up:

Either way, it wouldn't have hurt him much, either. Vettel retired right after the restart, so its not like the field wasn't already bunched up. Alonso made a good move on Grosjean for what essentially became the lead on the restart, but its not like Alonso had built up a huge gap or anything that would be erased. Basically, it wouldn't have changed anything. Grosjean would still be on his tail and Lewis and Kimi wouldn't be far behind, just like what actually happened.

#42 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:24

And thats the REAL reason for starting this thread, wasn't it? I dont see why you didn't just come out and say it in the OP.


:up:

Made up their mind and then came here for validation. Now suddenly the onus for proof is on those that aren't tossing conspiracy theories around? Heh.

As stated above the correct question is why Vettel's retirement didn't cause one. Grosjean managed to park his car in a hole in the fence that was off line. Vettel was nowhere near one and sending marshals out to get it on a hot track was frightening to watch.

#43 robefc

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:24

you answered it for yourself. SC wouldn't be good for Alonso... and there was no SC for Vettel's car.

not saying it was to help Alonso, just pointing out the logic fail in that post.


Yeah it amused me that I completely agree with the overall point sean was making but that but just didn't work!

Doh, in after you've already responded sean!

Edited by robefc, 25 June 2012 - 18:25.


#44 artista

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:27

I have taken these two screenshots:

Posted Image Posted Image

I mis-remembered the piece of wheel-rim being on the racing line, but it's on the inside overtaking line in the DRS zone, where a car could still run over it and throw it up into the air.

If I remember correctly, in RTL they said there were also metallic pieces from Vergne's suspension on the track and not just tyre rags. The SC was necessary.

I agree with what some other people have stated, the real question here is why the safety car wasn't deployed to recover Vettel's car too, that was more than scary.

#45 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:27

Well, some sort of "everything always goes as it should " ? Fair and so on.
Sour grapes? You do not seem to remember Singapore 2008?

The SC was more likely to help Grosjean or Lewis win since they were ahead of Alonso. But perhaps race control employs pyschics who knew that Lewis would have a bad pitstop and Grosjean and Vettel would retire?

#46 RealRacing

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:30

So your saying a SC is not needed in the 2nd half a race? IMHO it doesn't matter what stage the race is in, if there is a clear and obvious danger then the SC should be used to protect lives. In the Vettel incident the Marshalls safety should never have been compromised like that.


Not at all and I agree with you. But that's precisely what was strange: Vettel leading by a lot, others far behind, local driver with a chance but far> safety car. Local leading>no safety car.


#47 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:35

I agree with what some other people have stated, the real question here is why the safety car wasn't deployed to recover Vettel's car too, that was more than scary.

Safety car probably wasn't necessary since there was no debris or anything to sweep up, but the lack of a yellow flag where Vettel was being pushed off was pretty insane. Not sure how having a green flag there helped Alonso, though.

#48 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:36

Alonso leading had nothing to do with the lack of an SC after Vettel's retirement. It's nothing more than a conspiracy theory with absolutely nothing whatsoever to back it up. It's not like the SC not coming out helped Alonso anyway. They should've brought it out, but presumably thought they'd have enough time to push it out of the way before the pack came back round. However the lack of an SC was nothing to do with Alonso leading. Nobody can provide even the tiniest bit of proof to back up that suggestion.

#49 jee

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 19:02

Anyway, they should get more consistent with the SC when it is used for debris. Sometimes they bring it out for very little debris, sometimes nothing happens when there are big wings parts on the track.

And they always wait 2 laps to long to bring the SC in.

#50 RealRacing

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 19:08

Alonso leading had nothing to do with the lack of an SC after Vettel's retirement. It's nothing more than a conspiracy theory with absolutely nothing whatsoever to back it up. It's not like the SC not coming out helped Alonso anyway. They should've brought it out, but presumably thought they'd have enough time to push it out of the way before the pack came back round. However the lack of an SC was nothing to do with Alonso leading. Nobody can provide even the tiniest bit of proof to back up that suggestion.


...or to completely disprove it.