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Lotus E20 - 2012 - Part II


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#1601 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:57

And you are sure if he takes more out of the car in qualifying, he won't lose anything in the race. How do you know that gives the best overall result? Have you seen his teammate's style prove to be better during races? Or, do you know if it is even possible for him given his driving style to get that out of the car during qualy?

So you're saying Kimi has purposefully been slower than Grosjean in qualifying all these times and is holding back?

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#1602 grunge

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:58


So you're saying Kimi has purposefully been slower than Grosjean in qualifying all these times and is holding back?

what exactly do you want to stir up here??

#1603 SpaMaster

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:01

So you're saying Kimi has purposefully been slower than Grosjean in qualifying all these times and is holding back?

Where did I say that? :drunk: Did you read the last sentence in particular?

Edited by SpaMaster, 22 September 2012 - 13:02.


#1604 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:02

what exactly do you want to stir up here??

I'm just constantly amazed the lengths some Kimi fans go to to explain away his shortcomings. Sorry for the derailing.

#1605 grunge

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:03

Another race labelled "damage-limitation" by the looks of it. I'm afraid Lotus and Räikkönen's title bid staying realistic, is getting slim. :(

...however, a SC-intervention in this race, when that happens, can give us a bit of a crazy race and why wouldn't the dice roll Räikkönen's way...?


Well this the third weekend in a row now,so maybe we shouldnt call it ''damage limitation'' anymore..its prolly time to realize we've fallen behind in the development race

Car may be "Hungaroring-spec", but others have caught up in the development race since Hungary.

Precisely..the ''Hungaroring spec'' might not be good enough anymore

#1606 Yoshi

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:45

P12 for Kimi

#1607 grunge

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:46

Raikkonen knocked out in Q3.very slow S2 ..traffic ?

#1608 Carlo's

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:46

He's got 2 chances. Both screwed.

#1609 Vesuvius

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:47

Raikkonen knocked out in Q3.very slow S2 ..traffic ?


Maybe but he has sucked in s2 all day.

#1610 Topsu

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:48

Grosjean is back! A stunning lap. :clap:

#1611 grunge

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:51

Maybe but he has sucked in s2 all day.

His time on fresh softs at the end was slower than his prior time on used tires..surely something went wrong..either traffic or a big mistake

#1612 grunge

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 13:53

KR ,''no mistake in S2,just no grip''

#1613 artista

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:01

His time on fresh softs at the end was slower than his prior time on used tires..surely something went wrong..either traffic or a big mistake

Because that was the second hot lap on those tyres, it was the previous lap when something happened in S1 (he lost a whole second), then backed off for the rest of the lap and tried to do a 2nd hot lap on those tyres, but they only last one lap.

#1614 grunge

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:06

Because that was the second hot lap on those tyres, it was the previous lap when something happened in S1 (he lost a whole second), then backed off for the rest of the lap and tried to do a 2nd hot lap on those tyres, but they only last one lap.

Oh ok..didnt realize that.i guess we'll learn more when Lotus officially comment on the Qualifying

#1615 artista

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:14

Oh ok..didnt realize that.i guess we'll learn more when Lotus officially comment on the Qualifying

More details: The real problem happened in his 12th lap of the qualifying, or 1st hot-lap of his second outing in Q2. He did 29.8 in S1 when he had previously done a 28.8. I don't see anything in the tracking to explain it. Alonso and Maldonado are quite near, in their out-laps, but I don't think that's enough to explain what happened there. Then he backs off and does 46.0 in S2 and 42.2 in S3 and starts another hot-lap where he does 28.8 in S1, 42.3 in S2 (0.2 slower than his best time there) and 37.4 in S3 (0.3 slower than his best time, in short, tyres are already gone).

If Lotus will really tell about it... sometimes they do, sometimes they don't :p

#1616 grunge

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:19

More details: The real problem happened in his 12th lap of the qualifying, or 1st hot-lap of his second outing in Q2. He did 29.8 in S1 when he had previously done a 28.8. I don't see anything in the tracking to explain it. Alonso and Maldonado are quite near, in their out-laps, but I don't think that's enough to explain what happened there. Then he backs off and does 46.0 in S2 and 42.2 in S3 and starts another hot-lap where he does 28.8 in S1, 42.3 in S2 (0.2 slower than his best time there) and 37.4 in S3 (0.3 slower than his best time, in short, tyres are already gone).

If Lotus will really tell about it... sometimes they do, sometimes they don't :p

thanx for the info Artista... Yer a gem :kiss:

Edited by grunge, 22 September 2012 - 14:29.


#1617 korzeniow

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:24

Where are people screaming the car/team is shit?

Lotus without updates still better than Ferrari :wave:

#1618 korzeniow

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:25

I don't have big expectations. One car inside top ten and the second out in Q2 (with saved tires) would be enough for me. Maybe split strategy is the way to go?


once again you were right

#1619 SpaMaster

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:30

More details: The real problem happened in his 12th lap of the qualifying, or 1st hot-lap of his second outing in Q2. He did 29.8 in S1 when he had previously done a 28.8. I don't see anything in the tracking to explain it. Alonso and Maldonado are quite near, in their out-laps, but I don't think that's enough to explain what happened there. Then he backs off and does 46.0 in S2 and 42.2 in S3 and starts another hot-lap where he does 28.8 in S1, 42.3 in S2 (0.2 slower than his best time there) and 37.4 in S3 (0.3 slower than his best time, in short, tyres are already gone).

If Lotus will really tell about it... sometimes they do, sometimes they don't :p

We are thinking of traffic only in the two flying laps, but it is as important in the outlap. If you are not able to heat the tyres or preserve heat properly because of traffic in the outlap, the difference mostly tells in the first sector. I knew there was a chance for something like this when 14 odd cars are trying to be at the track at the same time in the final 2 minutes. Everyone gets caught out by this now and then. Anyway P12 is not that bad given the potential of the car in Q3. Earlier this season, Raikkonen, Alonso, Vettel and Perez have all done well starting from P11/P12.

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#1620 Anja

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:33

Somehow I can't see Lotus picking the right strategy for Kimi tomorrow. It's certainly not their area of expertise.

#1621 grunge

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:34

We'll hopefully know more when the official statement comes out..

Good to see Grosjean back on it after the break...the Q3 lap was right on the edge stuff.

#1622 artista

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:43

We are thinking of traffic only in the two flying laps, but it is as important in the outlap. If you are not able to heat the tyres or preserve heat properly because of traffic in the outlap, the difference mostly tells in the first sector. I knew there was a chance for something like this when 14 odd cars are trying to be at the track at the same time in the final 2 minutes. Everyone gets caught out by this now and then. Anyway P12 is not that bad given the potential of the car in Q3. Earlier this season, Raikkonen, Alonso, Vettel and Perez have all done well starting from P11/P12.

Just checked it: when Räikkönen hits the track on his outlap, there is only another driver on track -Grosjean- and he's almost half a circuit in front of him. The big bunch of drivers (7 of them) come out on track once Grosjean has started his hotlap and Kimi is still finishing his outlap. So, Räikkönen had a quiet outlap

#1623 K-One

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:54

Just checked it: when Räikkönen hits the track on his outlap, there is only another driver on track -Grosjean- and he's almost half a circuit in front of him. The big bunch of drivers (7 of them) come out on track once Grosjean has started his hotlap and Kimi is still finishing his outlap. So, Räikkönen had a quiet outlap


I was looking their outlaps and RG was about 3-4 secs faster than KR

Edited by K-One, 22 September 2012 - 14:59.


#1624 artista

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 14:58

I was looking their outlaps and RG was about 3-4 faster than KR

You're right there: 1.6 seconds faster in S2 and 1.4 in S3


#1625 grunge

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:00

Surely they will try 3 stopping with KR tomorrow...there isnt much to lose in the first place...three stints on SS,one of which would be a new set.

Grosjean will in probability do the ''regular'' 2 stop strategy.

#1626 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:01

Grosjean is back! A stunning lap. :clap:

Kimi might actually be in a preferable situation being able to start on hards.

Its looking less and less likely Lotus will be winning any races this year, though.

Edited by Seanspeed, 22 September 2012 - 15:03.


#1627 turssi

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:07

Surely they will try 3 stopping with KR tomorrow...there isnt much to lose in the first place...three stints on SS,one of which would be a new set.

Grosjean will in probability do the ''regular'' 2 stop strategy.


It will be Soft + Soft + Super Soft for Kimi. First stop at Grosjeans safety car and second stop after Maldonado bins it. Then he'll go for the win with the SS.

#1628 SpaMaster

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:17

Just checked it: when Räikkönen hits the track on his outlap, there is only another driver on track -Grosjean- and he's almost half a circuit in front of him. The big bunch of drivers (7 of them) come out on track once Grosjean has started his hotlap and Kimi is still finishing his outlap. So, Räikkönen had a quiet outlap

Then what explains the 1s difference in sector 1!? I have no idea what happened. :p Normally I associate these things with too many cars trying to set a time at the same time. I do think Lotus could have achieved P6 today. But if P6 to P10 is so close, these things often happen, and P11 and P12 positions often turn out to be better. That is why I think Mercedes did not set a time. I think P7 and P8 would be a bit wary of P9s and P10s. At least Lotus has two cars each on different strategy to maximize on any vagaries in race.

#1629 GrosjeanFTW

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:21

Great work by Grosjean today in a clearly under performing car, I think its weird that the Lotus is so bad though, given they had race winning pace in Valencia, a similar circuit.
Hopefully a double points finish is on tomorrow, I think we can do it.

#1630 Disgrace

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:21

We'll hopefully know more when the official statement comes out..

Good to see Grosjean back on it after the break...the Q3 lap was right on the edge stuff.


That is not how I would utilise the definition. To me it was just scrappy and messy. On the edge suggests speed and it simply wasn't quick.

Edited by Disgrace, 22 September 2012 - 15:22.


#1631 SpaMaster

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:25

It will be Soft + Soft + Super Soft for Kimi. First stop at Grosjeans safety car and second stop after Maldonado bins it. Then he'll go for the win with the SS.

That is not funny.

#1632 Watkins74

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:28

Nice job by Grosjean. I hope he has a nice clean race.

#1633 Topsu

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:29

The Mercs probably eat their tires in a couple of laps, but Kimi might get stuck behind them.

#1634 Torsion

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:33

Great job by Romain. Hope he can have a good race from there. 12 for Kimi should be ok, with once saved set of SS, and a good strategy, he should have a strong points finish. Lets hope we have a good setup for the race.

#1635 grunge

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:33

That is not how I would utilise the definition. To me it was just scrappy and messy. On the edge suggests speed and it simply wasn't quick.

Yah,ill agree there..not the right choice of words there..he was a bit ragged,took too much of the kerb at times and at a track like Singapore,this usually does more harm than good.

But still the performance is promising considering the amount of criticism hes gotten in the recent past and then coming after his One Weekend ban..Hoping for a clean start tomorrow..

#1636 Cyanide

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:34

Grosjean is clearly faster than Kimi on the super softs. He can manage them much more effectively, whereas Kimi has a slight upperhand on the softs. We'll see how that turns out in the race.

#1637 Torsion

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:34

From the Kimi thread.

@juhata: last tweet: Kimi:"We dont understand the car at all ! Old tires work better than new!"



#1638 spinster

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:35

Nice job by Grosjean. I hope he has a nice clean race.


He crashed already in quali :|

#1639 Verderer

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:36

With both Maldo and Grosjean in the top 10, the start should be 'interesting'...

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#1640 artista

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:37

Then what explains the 1s difference in sector 1!? I have no idea what happened. :p Normally I associate these things with too many cars trying to set a time at the same time. I do think Lotus could have achieved P6 today. But if P6 to P10 is so close, these things often happen, and P11 and P12 positions often turn out to be better. That is why I think Mercedes did not set a time. I think P7 and P8 would be a bit wary of P9s and P10s. At least Lotus has two cars each on different strategy to maximize on any vagaries in race.

Neither do I :lol: According to Motorsport-total.com, Räikkönen has complained about lacking grip with that last set of tyres (they used the word "criticise"). Maybe he started the lap, felt it wrong, and already backed off at some point of S1, which could explain the 1 second drop off.

Last year, the second main problem of the Lotus -after the exhaust- was that the car was extremely sensitive to the set up. One of the team's guys explained it to me saying that a quarter of a turn in a screw could completely change the behaviour of the car, which used to drive them nuts. He also told me, that that had improved a lot this year, even if the car was still a bit sensitive to those things.
If the car is, somehow, more sensitive to set-up in Singapore for whatever reason (temperature, supersoft tyres, whatever), it could explain why Räikkönen is almost 6 tenths faster than Grosjean on the softs and the page turns on the supersofts.
Yeah, I know, I'm just lucubrating, but I'm bored :p

#1641 Torsion

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:39

Grosjean is clearly faster than Kimi on the super softs. He can manage them much more effectively, whereas Kimi has a slight upperhand on the softs. We'll see how that turns out in the race.


I think Grosjean is able to get the best out of the tires on the first hot lap - as opposed to Kimi's tire heating issues. I think it is interesting to see the different tracks where Grosjean has been significantly faster than Kimi in Quli, quite a few are where the track layout didn't have many high-speed corners which generate tire loads/heat.

Edited by Torsion, 22 September 2012 - 15:46.


#1642 artista

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:45

I think Grosjean is able to get the best out of the tire on the first hot lap - as opposed to Kimi's tire heating issues. I think it is interesting to see the different tracks where Grosjean has been significantly faster than Kimi in Quli, quite a few are where the track layout didn't have many high-speed corners which generate tire loads/heat.

But, funny enough, today was the opposite with the softs, which should be more difficult to warm up. Grosjean did 3 hot laps on the softs and couldn't get anywhere near Räikkönen on them.

#1643 DarkknightRises

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:53

But, funny enough, today was the opposite with the softs, which should be more difficult to warm up. Grosjean did 3 hot laps on the softs and couldn't get anywhere near Räikkönen on them.


maybe harder compound doesnt like agressive driving style??

while softer compound prefer agressive driving style??



#1644 aray

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 15:59

good to see Grosjean getting back in speed after the ban...that would boost his morale...

Edited by aray, 22 September 2012 - 16:58.


#1645 korzeniow

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 16:49

What can we hope for tomorrow? The race will be all about the tyres. I read on Twitter that SS will be competitive for 5 laps only, after that the degradation will hit off.

I think that Kimi has better options starting outside top 10, although he saved only one set of tyres SS shouldn't be optimal race tyre tomorrow. Romain needs to get out clean from the start.

I hope for solid points finish from both of the drivers and reclaimind 3rd in WCC from Ferrari

Let's say P4 and P5



#1646 Wander

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 16:51

I think 7th and 8th is more likely. No way are they going to reclaim 3rd from Ferrari.

Edited by Wander, 22 September 2012 - 16:51.


#1647 PMM3

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 16:52

good to see Grosjean getting back in speed after the ban...that would boost his moral...

Is his morals questionable as well? I thought its just his judgement that was......

#1648 Menace

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 16:55

What can we hope for tomorrow? The race will be all about the tyres. I read on Twitter that SS will be competitive for 5 laps only, after that the degradation will hit off.

I think that Kimi has better options starting outside top 10, although he saved only one set of tyres SS shouldn't be optimal race tyre tomorrow. Romain needs to get out clean from the start.

I hope for solid points finish from both of the drivers and reclaimind 3rd in WCC from Ferrari

Let's say P4 and P5


I'm with you, lets stay positive and hope that the drivers having to start on SS ahead are in big trouble (not counting Grosjean). :up:

#1649 aray

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 16:58

Is his morals questionable as well? I thought its just his judgement that was......

you are right...the word should be 'morale'... :blush:

#1650 Fortymark

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 17:31

I'm with you, lets stay positive and hope that the drivers having to start on SS ahead are in big trouble (not counting Grosjean). :up:


I actually think he´s got a fair chance of doing good tomorrow. Remember that he was among the fastest if not the fastest on heavy fuel.
All it needs is a SC in the right time and all of a sudden he could be fighting for a podium (or even better..)
Maldo and growjohn having a massive startcrash eliminating the guys in front is another possible outcome..