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Lotus E20 - 2012 - Part II


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#1801 Alexandros

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 19:10

I just loved how Permane cut the crap about mysterious behavious of tyres. Sometimes enough is enough.


It's not like Kimi doesn't admit mistakes when he does them. But when more drivers have tyre issues, there must be some truth there. For example, when you fit a new set you expect to go something like a few tenths quicker, not a few tenths slower.

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#1802 Vesuvius

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 19:12

About this, wasn't he saying that Kimi was a little bit off everywhere over the lap - as in slow throughout the lap - and not a particular mistake? I don't think this dispels the tire behavior issue, rather, since there was no mistake, what made the lap slow? I am just curious.



yes he did say, it was tire issue, Kimi felt no grip in his quali lap...that made the lap slow.

#1803 grunge

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 19:19

Correct me if I am wrong, but I felt they were holding on to the tires a bit better than on previous races?

Yes,you're right...they did seem to finally reduce some tire wear which seems to apparent reason why KR couldnt overtake MS..though the pace just wasnt there,which is expected since it should take them a while before they can modify the system to align perfectly with the rest of the aero on the car and then find a decent setup for it..The Encouraging thing for them is that acc. to Gary Anderson ,they will be bringing in a new diffuser design to complement the coanda exhaust better ..GA also thinks that the update was necessary if they want to progress further next year..

Edited by grunge, 25 September 2012 - 19:20.


#1804 artista

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 19:25

I

It's not about Raikkonen, but about his fans (quick edit: some of them) I support Kimi in his campaign

I just loved how Permane cut the crap about mysterious behavious of tyres. Sometimes enough is enough.

Permane digit:

"Kimi war mit neuen Reifen langsamer als mit gebrauchten. Es ist noch nicht klar, warum das so war. Mit gebrauchten Reifen sah es bei ihm gut aus", bemerkt Permane.

Translation:

“Kimi was slower with new tyres as with used ones. It’s not clear yet why it was that way. With used tyres he looked good”, Permane pointed out


And Kimi Räikkönen self says

WM-Mitfavorit Kimi Räikkönen musste im Qualifying zum Grand Prix in Singapur einen Rückschlag verdauen. Der Finne schaffte den Sprung ins Q3 nicht, weil er mit neuen Reifen nicht auf Zeiten kam. "Das Auto war heute deutlich besser als gestern. Mit gebrauchten Reifen waren wir schnell", erklärt er. "Doch aus irgendeinem Grund hatten wir Probleme, den Grip der neuen Reifen im zweiten Abschnitt zu nutzen. Wir waren etwas langsamer."

Translation:

World Cup co-favorite Kimi Raikkonen had to digest a setback in qualifying for the Grand Prix in Singapore. The Finn did not manage to get into Q3 because he could not make a good time with new tyres. "The car was much better today than yesterday. With used tyres we were fast," he says. "But for some reason we had problems getting the grip off the new tyres in Q2. We were a bit slower."



Both quotes are from here
http://www.motorspor...t_12092236.html

I have to say, I love the concept of Mr Räikkönen being in reality, not a F1-driver, but just some Kimi fanboy making up stories and who couldn't cut the crap about mysterious behaviour of tyres

Agree with you, enough is enough, take the guy off the car!!!!! :lol:

#1805 korzeniow

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 19:29

Permane digit:

Translation:


And Kimi Räikkönen self says

Translation:



Both quotes are from here
http://www.motorspor...t_12092236.html

I have to say, I love the concept of Mr Räikkönen being in reality, not a F1-driver, but just some Kimi fanboy making up stories and who couldn't cut the crap about mysterious behaviour of tyres

Agree with you, enough is enough, take the guy off the car!!!!! :lol:


Sounds like ordinary excuse, of course not in the ears of fanboys

#1806 artista

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 19:34

Sounds like ordinary excuse, of course not in the ears of fanboys

So, let me see if I understand it correctly:

A driver known for listing each one of his mistakes when he ends a lap/race says the tyres didn't behave for whatever reason he doesn't know. Permane also says they don't know what happened. The same thing happened to Vettel but...

you, from your couch, know much better, call the guy who was actually driving the car a "liar" and also call "fanboys" to whoever who prefers to believe the guy in the car before you.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

#1807 beefree88

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 19:37

Sounds like ordinary excuse, of course not in the ears of fanboys

Why now? He didn't need excuses until now. Actually he usually takes responsility by default.
Yes, it's annoying if people can't face the mistakes of their fav, but that doesn't mean we should dismiss everything as an excuse. Personally even if somebody makes a genuine mistake, I'm curious why he made it. Lack of concentration? Weakness? Some circumstances he missed to deal with? It doesn't make me a blind fangirl

Edited by beefree88, 25 September 2012 - 19:43.


#1808 korzeniow

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 19:44

So, let me see if I understand it correctly:

A driver known for listing each one of his mistakes when he ends a lap/race says the tyres didn't behave for whatever reason he doesn't know. Permane also says they don't know what happened. The same thing happened to Vettel but...

you, from your couch, know much better, call the guy who was actually driving the car a "liar" and also call "fanboys" to whoever who prefers to believe the guy in the car before you.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.


Fanboys are people who over idealize their hero.

You know what, Kimi is not an oracle of truth and wrong or epitome of morality. He sometimes makes maistakes like other regular people, sometimes defense mechanism kicks in, sometimes he follows his instincts. He's normal peron who happens to drive fast.

As for Permance bit: Yes you quoted him admitting he didn't know at that time, but apparently he figured it out the next day: http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5937409

Edited by Mandzipop, 27 September 2012 - 15:34.
That's problem with you. You can't handle the slightest critics and look for every excuse possible over even the smallest mistake.


#1809 beefree88

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 19:54

Fanboys are people who over idealize their hero.

That's problem with you. You can't handle the slightest critics and look for every excuse possible over even the smallest mistake.

You know what, Kimi is not an oracle of truth and wrong or epitome of morality. He sometimes makes maistakes like other regular people, sometimes defense mechanism kicks in, sometimes he follows his instincts. He's normal peron who happens to drive fast.

As for Permance bit: Yes you quoted him admitting he didn't know at that time, but apparently he figured it out the next day: http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5937409

Where does it say he figured out? And yes, Kimi makes mistakes, he used to admit them. It has nothing to do with morality. Apparently he doesn't feel he needs excuses. Which is why some of us tends to believe him.

#1810 korzeniow

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 19:59

Why now? He didn't need excuses until now. Actually he usually takes responsility by default.
Yes, it's annoying if people can't face the mistakes of their fav, but that doesn't mean we should dismiss everything as an excuse. Personally even if somebody makes a genuine mistake, I'm curious why he made it. Lack of concentration? Weakness? Some circumstances he missed to deal with? It doesn't make me a blind fangirl


Yes, I'm constanly amazed by Kimi's no BS attitude and how much straight forward guy he is. But he's not a machine, he can have bad days too.

I don't know why Kimi said what he said, maby that was his perception and he really thought he pushed to the limit and telemetry showed otherwise. Maby he was frustrated under pressure of WDC slipping away. I can go on and on with that but I think it's pointles

#1811 F.M.

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 20:09

Fanboys are people who over idealize their hero.

That's problem with you. You can't handle the slightest critics and look for every excuse possible over even the smallest mistake.

You know what, Kimi is not an oracle of truth and wrong or epitome of morality. He sometimes makes maistakes like other regular people, sometimes defense mechanism kicks in, sometimes he follows his instincts. He's normal peron who happens to drive fast.

As for Permance bit: Yes you quoted him admitting he didn't know at that time, but apparently he figured it out the next day: http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5937409

Permane says Kimi was slower on new softs than on scrubbed in Q2. Well, no mysterie there, that was obvious for everyone.

Kimi states he just had no grip with the tyres. Imo this corresponds perfectly with Permane saying that Kimi was a bit off over the whole lap: he didn't make a mistake, he lost the time spread over the entire lap. Sounds like the tyre issue is a perfectly valid reason for this.

#1812 korzeniow

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 20:09

Where does it say he figured out? And yes, Kimi makes mistakes, he used to admit them. It has nothing to do with morality. Apparently he doesn't feel he needs excuses. Which is why some of us tends to believe him.


That didn't stop many of his fans from not beliving him that he and the team made decision of not running for the second time in Q2 in Bahrain quali

#1813 artista

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 20:14

Fanboys are people who over idealize their hero.

You know what, Kimi is not an oracle of truth and wrong or epitome of morality. He sometimes makes maistakes like other regular people, sometimes defense mechanism kicks in, sometimes he follows his instincts. He's normal peron who happens to drive fast.

As for Permance bit: Yes you quoted him admitting he didn't know at that time, but apparently he figured it out the next day: http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5937409

Nobody is the epitome of morality, not Räikkönen, not me, for sure not you and, you can be sure, Permane is also not.

So, you have the statements of the guy driving the car saying he didn't understand what happened to the new tyres, Permane stating the obvious (Räikkönen had been faster with the used tyres than with the new) and saying that they didn't know what happened and then Permane, again, stating the same obvious and saying Räikkönen had been a bit off all over the lap, which, actually means there was not a mistake, or the time loss would not have been constant all over the lap.

The thing is:
  • a) you can consider Permane was saying the same thing on Saturday and on Monday, and what he said was not different to what Räikkönen said, or
  • b) you can consider Permane was saying on Monday Räikkönen drove badly and Räikkönen said that was not the case.
In case a) the was not a problem with the driver
In case b) one of the two lie: Permane or Räikkönen.

Can you, please, give me a real reason why, in order not to be a fanboy that "can't handle the slightest critics and look for every excuse possible over even the smallest mistake", the only possible correct answer is b) with Räikkönen being a liar? Who are you to decide that? Can you give me a rational, documented reason why the real answer is b) and it has to be Räikkönen the liar and not Permane?

At least, I'm so used to listen to the rally drivers at the end of each stage, and therefore, Mr Räikkönen enumerating each one of his mistakes, from the first to the last, that I have rational reasons to have him for a honest guy when it comes to this kind of issue. Can you prove the same about Mr Permane? Can you prove that the real answer is b) and not a)? Can you prove that, in Permane's interview with Autosport, Permane did not add a "we don't know why" to the quoted sentence buy the writer forgot/decided not to write it?

And BTW and just in case: I don't have to prove Permane is lying, because I have never stated he lied.

Edited by Mandzipop, 27 September 2012 - 15:35.
Quoting an edited post


#1814 beefree88

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 20:28

That didn't stop many of his fans from not beliving him that he and the team made decision of not running for the second time in Q2 in Bahrain quali

What this has to do with the current argument? I understand your frustration, but I don't want to dismiss something just because some other time somebody else made a mistake. That's like thowing the baby out with the bath water

#1815 korzeniow

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 20:31

@artista

First thing, I meant"you" in plural :wave:

Secondly, I don't buy for a second you belive everything what Kimi says is truth. I remember you being quite vocal (as usual) after Bahrain quali that it was impossible they didn't run for second time on purpose. Another time was when Kimi said he wasn't interested in McLaren's 2010 offer because it was for couple of months. You tried undermine the credibiliti of Autosport "waiting" for Italian source. Funny thing: I don't remember you commenting on the issue once the original articla came out.

I don't have to prove anything. I don't know where Permance got his information from, maby it was telemetry maby many years of expirience.

While I agree that Kimi is keen to admitting to his own mistakes, that doesn't mean that he do (will be doing) it all the time, because as I said earlier, he's not a machine.

#1816 korzeniow

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 20:31

What this has to do with the current argument? I understand your frustration, but I don't want to dismiss something just because some other time somebody else made a mistake. That's like thowing the baby out with the bath water


Belive me, I'm very calm :wave:

Edited by korzeniow, 25 September 2012 - 20:32.


#1817 artista

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 20:36

That didn't stop many of his fans from not beliving him that he and the team made decision of not running for the second time in Q2 in Bahrain quali

Well among other things because the guy is very honest about his own mistakes, not the team's.

As a matter of fact this is what Permane said on Saturday when Räikkönen was being called idiot all over the paddock:

"Kimis Geschwindigkeit war vergleichbar mit jener von Romain und mit einem weiteren Satz Reifen hätte er in den dritten Qualifying-Durchgang kommen können. Morgen wird sich alles um die Abnutzung der Reifen drehen, aus diesem Grund gingen wir das Risiko ein, mit Kimi in der zweiten Qualifying-Einheit nicht ein zweites Mal zu fahren, um Reifen zu sparen."

"Unglücklicherweise wurde er im allerletzten Moment aus den Top 10 gestoßen. Wir wussten, dass es ein Risiko ist, nicht noch einmal zu fahren, aber die Strafe, es nicht in den dritten Qualifying-Teil zu schaffen war nicht so groß wie der Vorteil, den man durch einen für das Rennen auf gesparten frischen Satz Reifen haben kann."

http://www.motorspor...f_12042129.html

"Kimi's speed was comparable with Romain's and with another set of tyres he could have made it in Q3. Tomorrow, it would be all about the tyre degradation and, because of this, we took the risk, not to go out with Kimi in Q2, to save tyres".

"Unluckily, he fell out of the top 10 in the last moment. We knew, it was a risk not to go out again, but the penalty not to make it to Q3 was not as big as the advantage we can have with saved fresh tyres for the race".


and the very trustful Permane said this after the race, once everything had gone well:

Permane took a bold decision. Here was Raikkonen, ready to go out and with two sets of options to blast his way into Q3 and then – with luck – perhaps land a spot in the first three rows. But Permane told him to stay put.

"He was sitting there expecting to go out and I said, 'No, we're not going out.' It was a very, very tough decision, but I said, 'Let's go for it, and let's see what happens.'"

http://plus.autospor...m/feature/4391/

In short, before the race, when everything looks bad, for Permane, it's "we" and that includes Räikkönen and, after the race, when everything went well, for Permane it's "I". Hmm... interesting... somebody here changes his stories according to how the wind blows... and it's not Räikkönen, but Permane.

Edited by artista, 25 September 2012 - 20:37.


#1818 beefree88

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 20:40

@artista

First thing, I meant"you" in plural :wave:

Secondly, I don't buy for a second you belive everything what Kimi says is truth. I remember you being quite vocal (as usual) after Bahrain quali that it was impossible they didn't run for second time on purpose. Another time was when Kimi said he wasn't interested in McLaren's 2010 offer because it was for couple of months. You tried undermine the credibiliti of Autosport "waiting" for Italian source. Funny thing: I don't remember you commenting on the issue once the original articla came out.

I don't have to prove anything. I don't know where Permance got his information from, maby it was telemetry maby many years of expirience.

While I agree that Kimi is keen to admitting to his own mistakes, that doesn't mean that he do (will be doing) it all the time, because as I said earlier, he's not a machine.

What Permane said actually supports that for whatever reason Raikkönen was equally slow everyywhere on that set of tyre. Yet you're talking about it, like he contradicts what both him and the driver said.
Nothing to do with the current argument, but Kimi never said he wasn't interested in McLaren's 2010 offer because it was for couple of months.He said he mulled over it for that period

#1819 korzeniow

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 20:49

Well among other things because the guy is very honest about his own mistakes, not the team's.


Look who just admitted that Raikkonen lies too. Hmmm... How about that....

As a matter of fact this is what Permane said on Saturday when Räikkönen was being called idiot all over the paddock:

http://www.motorspor...f_12042129.html

and the very trustful Permane said this after the race, once everything had gone well:

http://plus.autospor...m/feature/4391/

In short, before the race, when everything looks bad, for Permane, it's "we" and that includes Räikkönen and, after the race, when everything went well, for Permane it's "I". Hmm... interesting... somebody here changes his stories according to how the wind blows... and it's not Räikkönen, but Permane.


Yeap, you got Permane. He clealy wanted to shine.

Yeap, two liars you got there

Edited by korzeniow, 25 September 2012 - 20:50.


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#1820 artista

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 20:53

@artista

First thing, I meant"you" in plural :wave:

Secondly, I don't buy for a second you belive everything what Kimi says is truth. I remember you being quite vocal (as usual) after Bahrain quali that it was impossible they didn't run for second time on purpose. Another time was when Kimi said he wasn't interested in McLaren's 2010 offer because it was for couple of months. You tried undermine the credibiliti of Autosport "waiting" for Italian source. Funny thing: I don't remember you commenting on the issue once the original articla came out.

I don't have to prove anything. I don't know where Permance got his information from, maby it was telemetry maby many years of expirience.

While I agree that Kimi is keen to admitting to his own mistakes, that doesn't mean that he do (will be doing) it all the time, because as I said earlier, he's not a machine.

Keep on going personal :lol:

a) I love you consider me very vocal, it means I must have put you in evidence sometime.

b) you mean about saying that Lotus' initial idea was to make it to Q3 and gambled with the time Räikkönen had set at the beginning of Q2? I mean, you mean right this Permane is saying here?

"Kimis Geschwindigkeit war vergleichbar mit jener von Romain und mit einem weiteren Satz Reifen hätte er in den dritten Qualifying-Durchgang kommen können. Morgen wird sich alles um die Abnutzung der Reifen drehen, aus diesem Grund gingen wir das Risiko ein, mit Kimi in der zweiten Qualifying-Einheit nicht ein zweites Mal zu fahren, um Reifen zu sparen."

"Unglücklicherweise wurde er im allerletzten Moment aus den Top 10 gestoßen. Wir wussten, dass es ein Risiko ist, nicht noch einmal zu fahren, aber die Strafe, es nicht in den dritten Qualifying-Teil zu schaffen war nicht so groß wie der Vorteil, den man durch einen für das Rennen auf gesparten frischen Satz Reifen haben kann."


http://www.motorspor...f_12042129.html


"Kimi's speed was comparable with Romain's and with another set of tyres he could have made it in Q3. Tomorrow, it would be all about the tyre degradation and, because of this, we took the risk, not to go out with Kimi in Q2, to save tyres".

"Unluckily, he fell out of the top 10 in the last moment. We knew, it was a risk not to go out again, but the penalty not to make it to Q3 was not as big as the advantage we can have with saved fresh tyres for the race".

:rotfl: I have to say I love it when Permane agrees with me :lol:

About the idiotic translation/interpretation from Autosport: I said what I thought the meaning of the original text is, and I speak Italian, I don't have to repeat it. Native English speaking forumers (Watkins) said what they thought it also meant in English, which was the same thing I said. Of course, I don't need to discuss anylonger, I'm not here to try to win arguments, just to say what I think. I only need to say thing once.

Anyway, I think it shows a lot about the knowledge about Motorsport of somebody that can even consider, McLaren, a team fighting for drivers and constructors championships, is going to offer a driver a contract that lasts only a couple of months, so they can be sure they have to search for another driver in the middle of the season, when there is nobody good in the market, just unemployed drivers who nobody else wanted and who had not tested the car :lol:
Yeah, that they were negotiating a contract for a couple of months meant for sure that the contract was only two months long, not that they negotiated about it for two months.

edit: typos

Edited by artista, 25 September 2012 - 20:59.


#1821 artista

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 20:54

Look who just admitted that Raikkonen lies too. Hmmm... How about that....



Yeap, you got Permane. He clealy wanted to shine.

Yeap, two liars you got there

Of course, the thing is that I've said Räikkönen doesn't lie when it comes to his mistakes

You see the difference? It's not that difficult, unless you want to get obtuse.

#1822 beefree88

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 21:07

About the idiotic translation/interpretation from Autosport: I said what I thought the meaning of the original text is, and I speak Italian, I don't have to repeat it. Native English speaking forumers (Watkins) said what they thought it also meant in English, which was the same thing I said. Of course, I don't need to discuss anylonger, I'm not here to try to win arguments, just to say what I think. I only need to say thing once.

Anyway, I think it shows a lot about the knowledge about Motorsport of somebody that can even consider, McLaren, a team fighting for drivers and constructors championships, is going to offer a driver a contract that lasts only a couple of months, so they can be sure they have to search for another driver in the middle of the season, when there is nobody good in the market, just unemployed drivers who nobody else wanted and who had not tested the car :lol:
Yeah, that they were negotiating a contract for a couple of months meant for sure that the contract was only two months long, not that they negotiated about it for two months.

edit: typos

Well, we had news bits about the contract negotiations for many weeks. Adding that to hiring a driver for two month being illogical kinda makes it obvious what Kimi meant

Edited by beefree88, 25 September 2012 - 21:09.


#1823 korzeniow

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 21:10

Of course, the thing is that I've said Räikkönen doesn't lie when it comes to his mistakes


Oh, I'm sorry I thought you argued that Kimi is no BS honest guy. So many people raised this opinion that I thought we are going with it.

OK, I understand you position that Kimi doesn't lie when it comes to him. I don't really argue that he lies, only that sometimes he can act subconsciously. I don't think that absolutes exist when it comes to human mind and behaviour and that people act the same way all the time.

So, that being said, I think we reached understanding, don't you agree?

You see the difference? It's not that difficult, unless you want to get obtuse.


I'm supprised you asked. That's a cheap shot.

As for you previous post, I don't see what I can adress to.

#1824 rijole1

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 21:21

Actually, from what I remember, Lotus is not really bringing any serious updates in the GPs. In the start of the season they brought a couple of front wings with some extra air channels (they are using this still), and two steering solutions (IIRC neither worked?)... Then in mid season they brought a tighter engine cover with smaller exit hole + side air intakes besides the airbox duct - perhaps in preparation of the DDRS package (?). Now they brought a floor and a rear wing which didn't work great so the car was not fitted with them for race. The DDRS has also not been fitted. So the car hasn't got any serious evolution on it even on aero parts which should be "easy", unlike Ferrari or Mclaren who've changed massively. Lotus might be the least evolved car of the entire grid, including the backmarkers. As an outsider, I get the feeling that they seriously lack financial resources to develop stuff :| . Their seeming keeping-up with the pace of others is more a function of understanding the car better and setting it up better, rather than some great upgrade package. But again, they are not really "keeping up". McLaren and Ferrari have evolved massively and they can easily be ahead in many GPs.

As for the exhausts, after the rule change about engine maps I doubt Lotus can (efficiently) go in that territory with their present engine maps. These solutions also require hundreds of miles of testing because the hot gases might cause bodywork damage from overheating. Since reliability is key, the best bet for upgrades are aero stuff, mechanical stuff with no reliability implications and setup changes that extract more performance.


:up: Thanks for a nice summary.

I don't understand so much about engineering, but I have also got the understanding, that updates they have brought and actually work, haven't been so dramatic.

And the question is why?

I think you're right - one part is this lack of money - thing...
And I seriously hope these uppdates have been the first steps of a bigger great update

I just can't imagine it's about lack of skills...but that's just a feeling, got no proof... :D


#1825 artista

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 21:27

Oh, I'm sorry I thought you argued that Kimi is no BS honest guy. So many people raised this opinion that I thought we are going with it.

OK, I understand you position that Kimi doesn't lie when it comes to him. I don't really argue that he lies, only that sometimes he can act subconsciously. I don't think that absolutes exist when it comes to human mind and behaviour and that people act the same way all the time.

So, that being said, I think we reached understanding, don't you agree?

Well, just 50%. I consider Räikkönen to be quite honest with his mistakes but, taking into consideration that I'm never going to categorically state that my mum never lies... and she is my mum, then you can be sure I'm never going to trust 100% what an F1-driver says. :p

Okaaaay, peace! (I'll obvious the rest, or we will never finish this, okay?) :)



#1826 Torsion

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 21:30

:up: Thanks for a nice summary.

I don't understand so much about engineering, but I have also got the understanding, that updates they have brought and actually work, haven't been so dramatic.

And the question is why?

I think you're right - one part is this lack of money - thing...
And I seriously hope these uppdates have been the first steps of a bigger great update

I just can't imagine it's about lack of skills...but that's just a feeling, got no proof... :D


It is important to remember that sometimes you don't see the actual effect/delta of an upgrade because there is no fixed reference point, as everybody is moving forward. The fact that we were competitive in Hungary indicates that there certainly have been good updates.

Regarding the last weekend, in fairness, there are so many reasons why an update may fail, and sometimes, it might not even be a failure, just that the team couldn't get it setup properly to get it working. Don't think there is much to read in to this, it happens across the paddock, big teams, small teams etc - happened to the new Ferrari rear wing this weekend as well. Hopefully the team will figure out what the issues were and will bring a better package to Suzuka.

Edited by Torsion, 25 September 2012 - 21:31.


#1827 Torsion

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 21:47

As for Permance bit: Yes you quoted him admitting he didn't know at that time, but apparently he figured it out the next day: http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5937409


I don't get it. I don't see any explanation of the slower lap on the new rubber in this article. If there was no mistake in the lap, and there was no issues with the tires, are you suggesting that he drove slowly on purpose?

#1828 rijole1

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 21:56

It is important to remember that sometimes you don't see the actual effect/delta of an upgrade because there is no fixed reference point, as everybody is moving forward. The fact that we were competitive in Hungary indicates that there certainly have been good updates.

Regarding the last weekend, in fairness, there are so many reasons why an update may fail, and sometimes, it might not even be a failure, just that the team couldn't get it setup properly to get it working. Don't think there is much to read in to this, it happens across the paddock, big teams, small teams etc - happened to the new Ferrari rear wing this weekend as well. Hopefully the team will figure out what the issues were and will bring a better package to Suzuka.


Yes, you're right. It's really difficult to get the bigger picture - when you don't have enough information to understand what's going on.

Somebody said lack of information creates insecurity - and that doesn't suit my controlfreak part of personality....
Saying that, I totally understand there is a reason why Lotus can't tell everything to us fans  ;)

Didn't have any great demands on Lotus in the beginning of the season.
I have been really positively surprised about their great car, and got used to it being a really good car.
And now, after some not so great races - I'm just worried...

But I choose to believe Lotus can fix it together :)

#1829 DarkknightRises

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 22:27

i guess vettel, hulkenberg lied too on saturday~~

leave that guy alone, he got a big ego to satisfy with~~

fyi, webber, rosberg all faced the same issues as kimi when they claim the fresh was much worst than the scrub set of tyre~~

whatever, kimi is a lier, no point to keep trolling with him, he actually knew kimi better than he himself!!

I don't get it. I don't see any explanation of the slower lap on the new rubber in this article. If there was no mistake in the lap, and there was no issues with the tires, are you suggesting that he drove slowly on purpose?


great point...wasnt kimi 6 tenth quicker than romain on soft tyre??
and romain couldn;t set a competitive lap time on scrub set...while kimi was able to improve his q1 time with used SS.......however not on fresh SS~!!

And kimi wasnt the only 1 that faced the issues~~~
I think is down to pirelli 's batch to batch consistency..

explanation pls =)

Edited by DarkknightRises, 26 September 2012 - 01:58.


#1830 SpaMaster

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 14:34

@artista

First thing, I meant"you" in plural :wave:

Secondly, I don't buy for a second you belive everything what Kimi says is truth. I remember you being quite vocal (as usual) after Bahrain quali that it was impossible they didn't run for second time on purpose. Another time was when Kimi said he wasn't interested in McLaren's 2010 offer because it was for couple of months. You tried undermine the credibiliti of Autosport "waiting" for Italian source. Funny thing: I don't remember you commenting on the issue once the original articla came out.

I don't have to prove anything. I don't know where Permance got his information from, maby it was telemetry maby many years of expirience.

While I agree that Kimi is keen to admitting to his own mistakes, that doesn't mean that he do (will be doing) it all the time, because as I said earlier, he's not a machine.

Presumed guilty, not the other way around. Nice!

Edited by SpaMaster, 26 September 2012 - 14:35.


#1831 wiry

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 13:03

nice new interview with Eric Boullier
http://www.formula1....12/9/13846.html


#1832 UPRC

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 13:09

Anyone else worried that "major upgrades" for the Korean GP sounds like too little too late? Well maybe not too little, but possibly too late, especially if Kimi DNFs in Japan or is outscored tremendously by Alonso.

#1833 MadYarpen

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 13:40

Anyone else worried that "major upgrades" for the Korean GP sounds like too little too late? Well maybe not too little, but possibly too late, especially if Kimi DNFs in Japan or is outscored tremendously by Alonso.

well it is hard to base your plans on prediction of a DNF, right? And for Japan they do have some new toys, f-duct + they'll try RW from singapore I guess.

#1834 korzeniow

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 13:46

well it is hard to base your plans on prediction of a DNF, right? And for Japan they do have some new toys, f-duct + they'll try RW from singapore I guess.


I hope they will do that, but I'm not so sure because I don't know wether their device is ealy detachable from rear wing's main plate. If not that would mean they would need to bring:
- standard RW
- RW with new DRS
- standard RW with the device
- RW with new DRS and with the device

#1835 Topsu

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 14:41

I'm just hoping for a dry Friday so they could finally set the car right.

#1836 MadYarpen

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 14:48

I hope they will do that, but I'm not so sure because I don't know wether their device is ealy detachable from rear wing's main plate. If not that would mean they would need to bring:
- standard RW
- RW with new DRS
- standard RW with the device
- RW with new DRS and with the device


Or, the part of the wing that is relevant is the same for every one of these wings:) Who knows, in mercedes' device the tube doesn't even touch the wing IIRC.

#1837 quidam

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 17:51

And for Korea they will test Coanda exhausts :p

You think it's a joke :smoking:



#1838 Carlo's

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 18:37

And for Korea they will test Coanda exhausts :p

You think it's a joke :smoking:


I would love them to :cat:


#1839 Viryfan

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 18:44

According to AH printed version, Lotus will test exhaust blowing system in Japan .

Advertisement

#1840 korzeniow

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 18:56

According to AH printed version, Lotus will test exhaust blowing system in Japan .


They can't, because that would mean I was wrong :drunk:

#1841 Carlo's

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 20:17

It's time they finally tested it.

#1842 wiry

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 20:23

Do i understand it right that it's the system which Red Bull and McLaren are using?

#1843 Carlo's

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 20:42

Yup.

#1844 wiry

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 20:48

Yup.

cool :up: here's hoping the weather does not spoil the testing

#1845 Torsion

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 21:13

According to AH printed version, Lotus will test exhaust blowing system in Japan .


Sorry for being ignorant, but what does AH stand for? which magazine?

#1846 wiry

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 21:15

http://www.autohebdo.fr/

#1847 Torsion

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 21:20

http://www.autohebdo.fr/


Thanks, are they generally reliable?

#1848 korzeniow

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 21:23

Thanks, are they generally reliable?


The most reliable French motorsport magazine AFAIK

#1849 Torsion

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 21:27

The most reliable French motorsport magazine AFAIK


Thanks. Lets hope they are right.

If this is true, Lotus will need all the testing they can get during free practice, with DDRS and the new rear wing to be setup too. Hope there is no rain.

Edited by Torsion, 27 September 2012 - 21:27.


#1850 wiry

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 21:28

Thanks, are they generally reliable?

i think they are a trustworthy source when it comes to news/information about french racing teams - renault, citroen