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Lotus E20 - 2012 - Part II


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#2101 artista

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:04

Lotus' drivers tend to screw Q3 laps, Don't like it.

That usually means they are overdriving the car: they want to win and they know they don't have the best car for it, so they take it to the limit trying to make up a bit of the disadvantage. Sometimes it pays out, but sometimes it costs a lot.

I do usually prefer rational drivers, but I suppose the common sense says that, under certain circumstances, the only chance to win, even if it's remote, it's to attack. As long as they don't get hurt or crash with anybody else, I like it :)

what worries is that Kimi hasn't done long runs, so there is no knowdledge how his tyres will last but Grosjean did good longer run yesterday althought it was with slower fuel load than Red Bull and McLaren had.

Maybe I'm a bit overoptimistic, but the long runs is not what would worry me the most. I was worried about what really happened today: a driver that has to risk to the maximum with a car that's not perfectly set-up, and he has not driven that much, gets surprised and ends up in the gravel.

It's true, the set-up differences with Grosjean's car could be so unfortunate that they affect negatively the tyre degradation in Räikkönen's car, but let's not always think the worst :)

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#2102 boldhakka

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:06

Need a clean weekend to extract the pace inherent in the E20. Until then the latent speed is academic; unless they setup the E20 to drive itself, do it's own pitstops, run its own strategies, and do its own maintenance.

When was the last time we had a 100% clean weekend (FPs, qualy, and race) for team, both cars, and both drivers?

Edited by boldhakka, 06 October 2012 - 07:07.


#2103 Vesuvius

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:08

That usually means they are overdriving the car: they want to win and they know they don't have the best car for it, so they take it to the limit trying to make up a bit of the disadvantage. Sometimes it pays out, but sometimes it costs a lot.

I do usually prefer rational drivers, but I suppose the common sense says that, under certain circumstances, the only chance to win, even if it's remote, it's to attack. As long as they don't get hurt or crash with anybody else, I like it :)


Maybe I'm a bit overoptimistic, but the long runs is not what would worry me the most. I was worried about what really happened today: a driver that has to risk to the maximum with a car that's not perfectly set-up, and he has not driven that much, gets surprised and ends up in the gravel.

It's true, the set-up differences with Grosjean's car could be so unfortunate that they affect negatively the tyre degradation in Räikkönen's car, but let's not always think the worst :)



I'm not really worried about tyre degradation, Kimi's great on that...what worries is the race pace but than again Kimi is always better on that so I expect good race tomorrow and we should beat Alonso. It will be maybe too much to beat Red Bull's and Kobayashi who are favourites to win.

#2104 Trust

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:09

I'm not really worried about tyre degradation, Kimi's great on that...what worries is the race pace but than again Kimi is always better on that so I expect good race tomorrow and we should beat Alonso. It will be maybe too much to beat Red Bull's and Kobayashi who are favourites to win.

If he has the setup that is bad, there is nothing he can do to prevent his tyres slipping away.

#2105 hello86

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:11

I don´t think that Kimi will improve his position that much considering that 2 faster cars are starting behind him, Alonso and Sauber always have great race pace and RB and Grosjean are too far away (and are faster as well (at least RB))!

IMO Grosjean has a great chance for a podium tomorrow (second or third (depends on Webber)) as Koba usually isn´t that fast in the races as he is during qualifying!

#2106 hello86

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:12

If he has the setup that is bad, there is nothing he can do to prevent his tyres slipping away.


But who says that his set-up is that bad? IMO he had some good pace during the qualifying today!

#2107 beefree88

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:15

That usually means they are overdriving the car: they want to win and they know they don't have the best car for it, so they take it to the limit trying to make up a bit of the disadvantage. Sometimes it pays out, but sometimes it costs a lot.

I do usually prefer rational drivers, but I suppose the common sense says that, under certain circumstances, the only chance to win, even if it's remote, it's to attack. As long as they don't get hurt or crash with anybody else, I like it :)


Maybe I'm a bit overoptimistic, but the long runs is not what would worry me the most. I was worried about what really happened today: a driver that has to risk to the maximum with a car that's not perfectly set-up, and he has not driven that much, gets surprised and ends up in the gravel.

It's true, the set-up differences with Grosjean's car could be so unfortunate that they affect negatively the tyre degradation in Räikkönen's car, but let's not always think the worst :)

Well, overdriving most of the times is a result of not finding the perfect steup for whatever reason. To get top performance you have to trust the car completely. I don't know why Kimi can't achieve that, but until he is just close to that without completely nailing it, he won't have a chance. Everybody else had it a couple of times this year. Close is not enough for more, than damage limitation.

#2108 artista

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:29

Well, overdriving most of the times is a result of not finding the perfect steup for whatever reason. To get top performance you have to trust the car completely. I don't know why Kimi can't achieve that, but until he is just close to that without completely nailing it, he won't have a chance. Everybody else had it a couple of times this year. Close is not enough for more, than damage limitation.

Hi!

Well, today it's clear why, given what happened in the three practices.
For the rest of the year, we would need to go through each weekend and it would take forever. But I agree with you: they need a clean weekend, from all sides, if they want to fight for something, this year or in the future.

#2109 MadYarpen

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:06

Lotus' drivers tend to screw Q3 laps, Don't like it.

Yeah, the team must be missing Robert, I tell you.

At least the car looks relatively competitive.

#2110 boldhakka

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:29

Anyone know if any other team has successfully tested and introduced an EBD/coanda-style exhaust mid-season? Merc tried it in Singapore and it obviously didn't work. I would have thought these things need serious testing mileage and couldn't be done during FP sessions during a race weekend.

#2111 MadYarpen

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:33

Anyone know if any other team has successfully tested and introduced an EBD/coanda-style exhaust mid-season? Merc tried it in Singapore and it obviously didn't work. I would have thought these things need serious testing mileage and couldn't be done during FP sessions during a race weekend.

ferrari I think, i'm not sure about torro rosso

#2112 korzeniow

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:33

Yeah, the team must be missing Robert, I tell you.

At least the car looks relatively competitive.


Thinking about it makes me sad :(

#2113 boldhakka

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:49

ferrari I think, i'm not sure about torro rosso


That's true, thanks. Ferrari were already blowing the floor (with the acer ducts) during winter testing, so it was more of an iteration for them when introducing EBD. Lotus have been blowing the beam wing and above and it'll be the first time they're trying to blow the floor or diffuser I think.

#2114 korzeniow

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:44

The Ferrari has been the most consistent car, even Massa is regularly outqualifying the Lotus drivers these days.


:wave:

#2115 grunge

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:55

Anyone know if any other team has successfully tested and introduced an EBD/coanda-style exhaust mid-season? Merc tried it in Singapore and it obviously didn't work. I would have thought these things need serious testing mileage and couldn't be done during FP sessions during a race weekend.

Ferrari only really..and they too you see,are very up and down on pace from track to track.

Its just not possible it seems..the teams introducing it mid season Ferrari/Mercedes and now probably Lotus in Korea are looking ahead at next season.Mclaren and RB on the contrary have been developing it from race 1 of the season.

#2116 grunge

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 13:12

Alan Permane, Lotus trackside operations director
“We had the pace to get both cars further up the grid. Kimi spun off on a new set of tyres which hampered his progress and Romain didn’t have a great first sector on his qualifying lap so he could have maybe been a place higher, but overall, it’s been a reasonable weekend so far. We’re comfortable with the E20’s performance on a full fuel load and over long runs so we’re looking forward to the race and hopeful that we can gain positions from where we start. Suzuka is pretty demanding on the tyres and we have shown well in this area previously, so there’s certainly potential. We know these tyres pretty well. For qualifying there was a reasonable difference in pace, but for the race it’s likely to be more even.”


#2117 korzeniow

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 13:41

floor:

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#2118 sheSgoTthElooK

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 13:49

I don´t think that Kimi will improve his position that much considering that 2 faster cars are starting behind him, Alonso and Sauber always have great race pace and RB and Grosjean are too far away (and are faster as well (at least RB))!

IMO Grosjean has a great chance for a podium tomorrow (second or third (depends on Webber)) as Koba usually isn´t that fast in the races as he is during qualifying!


Maybe Koba pushed by his home crowd? Never say never- he did really good back then and is stil a agressive nice driver.

And two faster cars? I mean Hamilton failed setup wise, he said it straight to the camera.

P7 is not bad and it´s good havin Gro in front as a Lotus boy, they need team work, 6 and 5 and one gift. It would be great if we finally had a lucky start without losing places the next lap. That´s imo the most important job of Kimi. Focus on the first stint hast to be there.

#2119 BetaVersion

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 17:19

Alan Permane, Lotus trackside operations director
“We had the pace to get both cars further up the grid. Kimi spun off on a new set of tyres which hampered his progress and Romain didn’t have a great first sector on his qualifying lap so he could have maybe been a place higher, but overall, it’s been a reasonable weekend so far.

Romain Grosjean (5th, Q3 - 1m 31.898s)
“Yesterday we had two tricky sessions, so to have both cars in Q3 is a good recovery. We knew it would be very tight in qualifying and I think we could maybe have been one place higher with a cleaner run through the first sector, but the leaders were too quick today. We’re lacking a little bit of downforce at the moment, but with a few minor adjustments overnight and the right strategy I think we can take home a good haul of points tomorrow.”


Lotus' people are so pathetic with their moaning and excuses.

They wouldn't beat Sauber anyway because Kamui also had his Q3 lap compromised:

Kamui Kobayashi (4th, Q3 - 1m 31.700s)
“I am happy because I think I achieved the maximum possible today. On my last lap I lost a bit of time because of the yellow flag when I backed off and switched off the DRS.


Sauber faster than Lotus AGAIN but at least they already came up with excuses for you Korzeniov.

2 tenths is quite a good gap already and even if Grosjean "had got his S1 right", as he says, it's very doubtfull if it would be enough to threaten Koba's time. When you add that KK had to back off in S2, due to clumpsy Lotus driver, it would be out of reach for Lotus to catch Sauber's speed if both had perfect laps

Edited by BetaVersion, 06 October 2012 - 17:23.


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#2120 BetaVersion

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 19:16

Romain should have been faster than Koba but P4 is still tremendous result. Kimi unfortunately fuked up his flying lap... :|

ah, no! :rolleyes:

Koba's S1 was faster than any of Lotus drivers. And his S2 was compromised by the yellow caused by one of your drivers. In S3, the 3 were all on same tenth.



#2121 grunge

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 19:17

Lotus' people are so pathetic with their moaning and excuses.

They wouldn't beat Sauber anyway because Kamui also had his Q3 lap compromised:



Sauber faster than Lotus AGAIN but at least they already came up with excuses for you Korzeniov.

2 tenths is quite a good gap already and even if Grosjean "had got his S1 right", as he says, it's very doubtfull if it would be enough to threaten Koba's time. When you add that KK had to back off in S2, due to clumpsy Lotus driver, it would be out of reach for Lotus to catch Sauber's speed if both had perfect laps

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Lotus was unarguably quicker than Sauber today.Both KR and RG were faster than the Saubers on new softs..about 2 tenths..we saw that in Q2.

And it isnt Lotus's fault,both their drivers mucked up their Q3 runs..KR had no time to find a decent baseline setup.thus they were experimenting with it even in Q2..that part cant be blamed on KR but he did overdrive the car and the spin was a driver's error..RG similarly had a very slow S1 for whatever reason.

they shouldve been 3rd and 4th on the grid after Button's penalty..Lotus has every right to be disappointed with the drivers to be honest

Edited by grunge, 06 October 2012 - 19:17.


#2122 BetaVersion

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 19:17

A heap of praise for Lotus F1 team :up: ..they are back on it after 3 weekends on being in the midfield..with a big update planned for Korea,im suddenly optimistic again.

KR and Gro were the 4th and 5th fastest cars today with only the RBs and Button in front of them.


and Sauber :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Lotus was unarguably quicker than Sauber today.Both KR and RG were faster than the Saubers on new softs..about 2 tenths..we saw that in Q2.

And it isnt Lotus's fault,both their drivers mucked up their Q3 runs..KR had no time to find a decent baseline setup.thus they were experimenting with it even in Q2..that part cant be blamed on KR but he did overdrive the car and the spin was a driver's error..RG similarly had a very slow S1 for whatever reason.

they shouldve been 3rd and 4th on the grid after Button's penalty..Lotus has every right to be disappointed with the drivers to be honest


You don't get it mate.

I will fix this for you:

Sauber was unarguably quicker than Lotus today.

Q2 doesn't matter, it's just to pass to another stage of qualifying

Koba showed in S1 he was faster than any Lotus and everybody had not yellow in S1 and could extract the best he could.

Sauber just had more speed on it

Edited by BetaVersion, 06 October 2012 - 19:21.


#2123 grunge

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 19:24

and Sauber :rolleyes:

Q2

KK 1,31,88 SP 1,32,1

KR 1,31,82 RG 1,31,9

Edited by grunge, 06 October 2012 - 19:25.


#2124 grunge

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 19:25

and Sauber :rolleyes:



You don't get it mate.

I will fix this for you:

Sauber was unarguably quicker than Lotus today.

Q2 doesn't matter, it's just to pass to another stage of qualifying

Koba showed in S1 he was faster than any Lotus and everybody had not yellow in S1 and could extract the best he could.

Sauber just had more speed on it

No,i picked up Q2 for comparison because all 4 drivers had clean laps with new soft tires at the end of the session

#2125 Lord_Shaitan

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 19:42

Q2

KK 1,31,88 SP 1,32,1

KR 1,31,82 RG 1,31,9

Sum up well today's session. Lotus combo (car+driver) was a bit faster than Sauber.

#2126 Vesuvius

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 19:52

Kimi said he would have done 1,31,5 with his second Q3 lap...if he only wouldnt have spun.

#2127 BetaVersion

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 20:38

Kimi said he would have done 1,31,5 with his second Q3 lap...if he only wouldnt have spun.


The problem is that his mistake in Spoon spoiled some other cars' S2

In reality, it's impossible to know which team would be faster if everything went right for all of them. We could be guessing all night here.

The point really is that Sauber, Lotus and Alonso(his sector times are all in KK's pace) were very close together speed-wise. They were the 3rd force of this qualifying, clearly behind Red Bull and Button

In the race I think Lotus could be much more dangerous, though.

Sauber is also mighty in race pace but Kamui screwed his starts(he had a bad start in Spa even before Grosjean's accident also catchs him) every time he started in first 2 rows(China, Spa). Perez have his usual 1 less stop strategy but this track is brutal with tires and I'm not confident that will work tomorrow/today

I suspect Red Bull and Button will have the dominant race pace but after it, it's all open, imho.

PS: I just hope Romain doesn't screw in the start again.....

#2128 grunge

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:01

KR's softs are older than the rest..expect an early 1st stop

#2129 grunge

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:06

Alonso's out...KR upto 5th.

RGs screwed

#2130 grunge

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:27

KR pits

#2131 Vesuvius

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:09

Boullier said before the race that they invested so much to the device and it's frustrating that they can't get the performance out of it that they know there is...so it's worth to still a try it but it seems it won't race this year so it could be postponed till next year. he also admitted it has taken resources off from other updates but their Korea package will be a big one.

#2132 Topsu

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:15

The car is a piece of shit. I wonder if the front wing is affecting Kimi.

#2133 Vesuvius

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:20

wing for sure is affecting but Grosjeans pace is not any better than Kimi's actually it's a bit worse.

#2134 hello86

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:20

The car is a piece of shit. I wonder if the front wing is affecting Kimi.


I guess it also has something to do with the fact that Kimi couldn´t do long runs (have a good set-up for the race).

#2135 grunge

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:24

Lotus is no match for the front ATM..Grosjean is running even worse lap times than KR.

#2136 Yhamm

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:27

Lotus is no match for the front ATM..Grosjean is running even worse lap times than KR.

Grosjean kinda made a 1 stop race
he stopped at lap 1 after his contact with hard tyre, drive through and then an other stop with hard

#2137 Yoshi

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:34

Last hope will be the updates for the next weekend.

#2138 Vesuvius

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:45

Last hope will be the updates for the next weekend.


yeah that's is the hope and Boullier expect they will take Lotus back to the top...but to be honest big updates really rarely work or at least in first couple of races so I wouldn't trust they will take us back there...but lets hope so!

#2139 Yoshi

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:54

Red Bull has now also a double DDRS according to Sky Germany with the new rear wing.
You can see the inlet cover on the end of the flap.
Sad our DDRS is not working.

Edited by Yoshi, 07 October 2012 - 07:55.


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#2140 boldhakka

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:12

Interesting about the RBR device.

Too bad Massa score some solid points today, I was hoping we could catch Ferrari in the WCC. 3rd in the WCC for Lotus would mean some substantial extra funds for the team to play with for next year and beyond.

Sauber were much quicker than us, and even if Kimi didn't have any damage and had figured out a good long-run setup on Friday, Sauber would have been hard to beat. Massa had good pace too, Fernando would have easily fought for the podium.

The Lotus E20's race pace advantage isn't quite what it used to be.

Bring on Korea and some fresh updates.

#2141 Vesuvius

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:22

Red Bull has now also a double DDRS according to Sky Germany with the new rear wing.
You can see the inlet cover on the end of the flap.
Sad our DDRS is not working.


well, our system is really not DDRS and is totally different concept. But interesting that RBR has made such a system and it seems to work.

#2142 santababy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:26

Webber says Grosjean needs another race ban.
Horner says Gro is costing Lotus championship points & his team wouldn't be impressed.



#2143 Yoshi

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:27

well, our system is really not DDRS and is totally different concept. But interesting that RBR has made such a system and it seems to work.


Yea you are right. RB has a system like Mercedes.

#2144 Starish

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:33

Seems the mercedes system was the way to go, even with the heaaches... poor Romain... weekend after weekend someone is calling for his head, I think kimi needs to step in even if he doesn't want to.

#2145 Topsu

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:18

I'm ready to start rooting for Vettel's championship if Korea fails for Lotus, but this has already been an amazing season when you compare it to last year!

#2146 Torsion

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:30

I'm ready to start rooting for Vettel's championship if Korea fails for Lotus, but this has already been an amazing season when you compare it to last year!


I think the championship for Kimi got a whole lot harder with Vettel closing in on the lead. Catching Alonso was one thing, but RedBull and Vettel look immense at the moment. We need a good upgrade package and for it to work well from the start, for next week.

Edited by Torsion, 07 October 2012 - 12:19.


#2147 boldhakka

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:23

Lotus - Japanese GP post-race comments:

Kimi Raikkonen (6th)
"Sixth wasn’t the result we were hoping for but unfortunately we didn’t have the speed to do better today. The start was very tight; I was alongside Fernando [Alonso] straight away and he kept moving further across until there was nowhere left go. We lost some time there and our second pit stop wasn’t the best, so overall it was quite a difficult race. The good thing is we still managed to score points to stay in touch in the championship."

Romain Grosjean (19th)
"Ever since I came back in Singapore my priority has been to be very cautious at the start, and I was watching Sergio [Perez] on my left to make sure there was no contact with him. There was quite a big speed difference between me and Mark [Webber] as I came into the first corner which caught me by surprise and we collided. It was a stupid mistake. Mark [Webber] came to see me after the race and was obviously not happy, but I apologised and we have to move on. We’ll sit down and look at things again before the next race to see what we can do to improve these situations. In the last few laps of the race the tyres were at the end of their life and we were out of the points, so it made sense to retire. Not a good day, but we have to look ahead to Korea and a chance to make amends."

James Allison, Lotus technical director
"The best thing that can be said about this event is that we scored some more points, but it’s certainly not been the weekend we hoped for on Friday, nor the one we expected after Saturday. We’re disappointed that Kimi had to race whilst looking in his mirrors rather than attacking those ahead and we need to face the fact that we need more performance from the E20 if we are to move up in the Constructors’ Championship rather than resting on our very secure fourth position. It would have been much better for us to have scored points with both cars but sadly a first lap incident for Romain put paid to that."

Eric Boullier, Lotus team principal
"Obviously, it hasn’t gone as well as we expected. We could see in Singapore, when Romain was back on track, that the other drivers were putting some pressure on him at the start. Here it was a little bit easier, but he made a small mistake misjudging his pace compared with Mark, which was a bit higher. I think he has made some progress, but it’s unfortunate that this has happened again in these circumstances. With Kimi, the car’s pace was not as good as we were expecting. Starting seventh we had higher hopes, but if you don’t have the pace completely it doesn’t work well. We couldn’t put everything together in order to make his race more successful and gain more places."


#2148 swiniodzik

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:43

It's disappointing the deivce isn't working. If Red Bull indeed runs the DDRS and it contributes to their latest step in form, does it show we just missed the boat? In theory, the passive Lotus system has the advantage of also aiding race pace but just how big can this advantage be? Can the device be adjusted for qualifying and the race separately, where the lap-times not only fluctuate but are also a few seconds slower than in qualifying even at the end when on low fuel? If not, it surely has to be configured so that the stalling effect arrives at the maximum exit speed onto a straight in qualifying. However, in the race that speed will only be achieved on the actual straight and the stalling period will last proportionally shorter to the difference in lap-times between Saturday and Sunday which as I said is a significant difference. Taking into account that the device is said to be stalling the rear wing and Red Bull's DDRS the beam wing, isn't it mainly a quali tool also but with its inherent problems of a passive system?

#2149 iMad4

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:10

Boluer: Bla bla bla Roman...Bla bla bla win, bla bla bla championchip victory...bla bla bla updates...bla bla bla i need more money for the team to win,,,not with our small budjet i have now...bla bla bla..Kimi's win will be dissapoitment for the team. bla bla bla...our goal is 4th place...we don't need more because then we will not receive bigger budget.

what and awfull manager. there was talks about Lotus management were to fire him in november 2011...i guess that is a good time now..together with Roman....Lotus will not receive money from French sponsors as were expected in Eric's plan for Lotus&Roman&French GP...better luck next time and in another Gp3 team

Edited by iMad4, 07 October 2012 - 17:38.


#2150 korzeniow

korzeniow
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  • 5,671 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:17

Posted Image

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Edited by korzeniow, 07 October 2012 - 18:24.