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Lotus E20 - 2012 - Part II


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#2901 Torsion

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:30

I think that is probably the difference in running in clear air?

Anyway, as soon as I saw Romain struggling and being caught up by the mid-field pack (including Perez), I just got the feeling that some incident was about to happen.

I just felt that the team may have had the opportunity to pre-empt and call him to the pits straightway. This would have ensured that he didn't loose any time fighting a loosing battle, and may have prevented the whole accident.




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#2902 Shiroo

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:32

Congrats to Lotus.

I know it's too early and no valid argument but Kubica with Kimi would be nice. It's just in the back of my head...

I very doubtful it would happen. But with drivers like RK and KR they would be probably 2nd in WCC at the moment, with maybe more than 1 win in pocket (Monaco could go well for RK I believe).


I was just comparing times between Romain and Kimi (there is no point as they were running completely different races), but I suddenly realized that the team had put Romain on a Bizarre strategy.

Pit - Lap 2 (puncture)
Pit - Lap 9 (Safety car)

So no wonder he was struggling badly at the end. Were they expecting him to go to the end on those tires? Quite bizarre in my view.

Lap Chart:
http://en.mclarenf-1...an#.UJfqJ7ulG2o

He could be guine pig. You know, they had a driver leading a race, so they could want to test how long he can stay on these tyres.

#2903 grunge

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:58

They would have had to stop him because of the tyre wear but without that they planned only one stop, with second stop he wouldn't have scored any points.

Thats what i meant..his tyres were shot at lap 36..im sure they planned to bring him again for another stint on options..he wouldnt have lasted the race on those.

#2904 Torsion

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 20:02

With a win secured, and 4th in WCC secured, and 3rd in WDC for Kimi almost secure, I wonder whether the team will take a chance and try out the DRD in Texas.



#2905 grunge

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 20:10

I think all evidence points to the fact that the device is probably unworkable right now..if it was a risk they could take,then i cant see why they didnt try it on RG's car in India or AD.
Lets hope they can figure it out for next season

#2906 swiniodzik

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 20:36

The win! The team really deserved it :clap:

The most important thing is that the blowing exhaust seems to have taken the car back to the level where it's mixing it with the top three squads again. A good confirmation of the fundamentals for next year's design being healthy.

#2907 Vesuvius

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 20:58

With a win secured, and 4th in WCC secured, and 3rd in WDC for Kimi almost secure, I wonder whether the team will take a chance and try out the DRD in Texas.


I think they should, they have nothing to lose....but according to Allison it's extremely unlikely.

Edited by Vesuvius, 05 November 2012 - 21:00.


#2908 Skinnyguy

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 21:06

I think they should, they have nothing to lose....but according to Allison it's extremely unlikely.


With all the high speed sweepers after T1 and the looong right hander near the end of the lap, I bet they keep it in the factory.

Abu Dhabi was the place to use it, long straights and only one really fast corner, T3.

#2909 SCUDmissile

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 21:06

Belated congratulations guys. :up: deserved win.

Kimi was fantastic.

#2910 Creepy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:59

So you are implying it faster than the ferrari? Alonso was faster often than Kimi you can see it in the FL. Ferrari speed trap was superior also. Is it that difficult to admit sometimes, just sometimes it's not only Alonso that can make a difference?


Assuming things about others like that is a really ugly thing to do. I won't dislike you still for doing so, since I tend to give plenty of chances to everyone. Not that you should care of course, but I like to point it out just in case. :kiss:

Kimi did make a difference yesterday and such is my consideration about what he did. See that for instance his team-mate was not being noticeable at all with the same car.

But, that doesn't mean that stating that the Lotus was only the 4th fastest lap is fair or correct either. What speed trap did you look at? If you are talking about something like this that will surely lead you to a misleading conclusion.

Because live speed traps during the race were suggesting me on my phone that in spite of Alonso could register fastest laps during some laps, overall during the race the Lotus registered faster laps more firmly. You may think (or maybe not) that was because Alonso took out less from his car than Kimi did, but looking at the tires field I think it just seemed that the Lotus was managing the tires much better in this track (actually the Lotus has shown some brilliance in that regard at some tracks, while yeah, in others it was the opposite maybe). Only by the end of the race (when it actually didn't matter anymore) the hards seemed to work better for Ferrari.

So yeah, I think Lotus was a faster car yesterday, the tires are part of the car after all and those seemed to work better for Lotus at Yibbi Dabbi. It is also that part regarding the Renault engines (see how Williams was unusually good again).

Kimi did make a difference yesterday, he was really good and special, but I don't buy that the Lotus was just the 4th fastest car yesterday as you stated. Sorry, I just don't agree with it.

#2911 Cenotaph

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 03:52

Alonso's pace was conditioned by Maldonado for a long part of the race though.

Edited by Cenotaph, 06 November 2012 - 03:53.


#2912 Torsion

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:09

From the YDT today. Seems they are trying to optimise the exhaust.

Posted Image



#2913 Raikkonen94

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:28

Really hope the team uses this Young Driver Test to test some new parts or optimise the existing parts on the car. In that way, with some luck, we might be able to have another Kimi-surprise this season :)

#2914 Shiroo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:40

so nothing about DRD? Well tbh it might be reasonable. If they will configure the current car better htey might still get ahead of McLaren or even Ferrari with a bit of luck. DRD won't be raced this seasn anyway

#2915 Jovanotti

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:47

so nothing about DRD? Well tbh it might be reasonable. If they will configure the current car better htey might still get ahead of McLaren or even Ferrari with a bit of luck. DRD won't be raced this seasn anyway

Well I fear if they don't test it now, they'll compromise their whole winter testing with the device. I prefer using the YDT for that.

#2916 Yoshi

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:50

Sauber is testing a smiliar device.
But maybe they will test it tomorrow or at least on thursday.

#2917 Shiroo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:57

I hope at least that we will be the team with DRD working the best, cause we started it earliest. + all these DRDs from other tams looks quite bit different from ours, mostly that they are missing these additional ducts + they dont have such firm connection with rear wing as ours solution

#2918 Torsion

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:57

Sauber is testing a smiliar device.
But maybe they will test it tomorrow or at least on thursday.


I think they probably feel that there is more performance to be found at the moment in the exhaust area, compared to the DRD, which is fair enough.

Anyway I agree that they will probably bolt on the DRD either tomorrow or day after.



#2919 korzeniow

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:07

I think they probably feel that there is more performance to be found at the moment in the exhaust area, compared to the DRD, which is fair enough.

Anyway I agree that they will probably bolt on the DRD either tomorrow or day after.


They already confirmed couple of months ago they will test the DRD at this YDT. Even if they don't test it today they have two more days

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#2920 quidam

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:27

Coanda exhaust first then DRD (for next year). It looks like they are doing aero test in the morning then laptimes in the afternoon.

Paul Seaby ‏@Seabs
A good morning for Nico Prost... plenty of aero runs gathering data for us... this afternoon some timed laps!



#2921 Avastrol

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:10

Kimi did make a difference yesterday, he was really good and special, but I don't buy that the Lotus was just the 4th fastest car yesterday as you stated. Sorry, I just don't agree with it.


RB and Mac were the class of the field in terms of speed, but shot themselves in the foot. Ferrari and Lotus arguably the same, only that Kimi seized the opportunity for clean air and started to pump out qualifying laps, while Fernando was more or less bottled behind traffic. Nothing too strange in saying Lotus only had the 4th fastest car in the race.

#2922 Skinnyguy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:04

Kimi did make a difference yesterday, he was really good and special, but I don't buy that the Lotus was just the 4th fastest car yesterday as you stated. Sorry, I just don't agree with it.


It was more like a joint third. McLaren had a serious performance advantage over them. Red Bull maybe a small one judging Vettel´s pace on primers when he got clean air, and their quali advantage. But both teams failed. Lewis retired, and I don´t know what on Earth happened with Button. Vettel´s race was screwed before it started, and Mark´s race in the first couple of seconds of the race.

Ferrari was a perfect match for Lotus. Lotus looked faster on option tyre, Ferrari faster on prime tyre, all over the weekend, both in one lap and race trim. I wouldn´t dare saying who would come out winner in a straight race distance time trial. So 4th best is nothing crazy at all. Having said that, top 4 was extremelly matched bar McLaren.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 06 November 2012 - 14:05.


#2923 SpaMaster

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:41

I dunno. Both RB and McLaren are faster than us and even Alonso has better race pace now. We are still dependent of Button and Webbo underperfoming and misfortune of one top driver to finish 3rd.

Alonso has better race pace? How?

Kimi was faster than Alonso for the majority of the race. I think they clearly had a better car than Ferrari, ..

Those two sentences don't necessarily have to correlate that way.

Edited by SpaMaster, 06 November 2012 - 14:48.


#2924 Creepy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 16:57

Alonso has better race pace? How?

Those two sentences don't necessarily have to correlate that way.


It doesn't matter what you consider that necessarily correlate or not, the fact is that the Lotus' car showed better race pace, be it because of the tires or because of the situation. You may believe that in reality it is that Alonso is a worse driver or that Kimi can make a car to run faster than it can (again :rolleyes: ), but that would be only a way to hide your head beneath to ignore the truth.

It was more like a joint third. McLaren had a serious performance advantage over them. Red Bull maybe a small one judging Vettel´s pace on primers when he got clean air, and their quali advantage. But both teams failed. Lewis retired, and I don´t know what on Earth happened with Button. Vettel´s race was screwed before it started, and Mark´s race in the first couple of seconds of the race.

Ferrari was a perfect match for Lotus. Lotus looked faster on option tyre, Ferrari faster on prime tyre, all over the weekend, both in one lap and race trim. I wouldn´t dare saying who would come out winner in a straight race distance time trial. So 4th best is nothing crazy at all. Having said that, top 4 was extremelly matched bar McLaren.


I still really don't agree with your second paragraph, but I reckon that what you said is a fair analysis. :wave:

#2925 Skinnyguy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 18:00

I still really don't agree with your second paragraph, but I reckon that what you said is a fair analysis. :wave:


Would like to know why. Focusing on Lotus vs Ferrari. I give my reasons:

Lotus opened a gap with soft tyres, with or without cars in front of Alonso. With Alonso on traffic, the gap opened quickly, without it, slowly. The 10 seconds gap wasn´t all down to pace advantage, at least 3-4 of that was Alonso racing other people. So Lotus was faster on options for me, but not as much as these 10 seconds..

With primes, while Alonso was struggling on the opening laps of stint/restarts, he was able to eat the gap at a good pace, at a similar rate than the Lotus opened it. Put Alonso 6 seconds behind Kimi after the pitstop -roughly what he would lose on first stint without having to race anyone-, don´t interrupt the race, and he´ll catch him over the 25-30 laps the last stint would last.

In other words, put these two cars doing a race distance TT, and they´ll end together. Who knows which one marginally in front. So no, you can´t claim "Lotus showed better race pace", just as I can´t claim that Ferrari did. Because it´s too close to call.


You may believe that in reality it is that Alonso is a worse driver or that Kimi can make a car to run faster than it can (again ), but that would be only a way to hide your head beneath to ignore the truth.


But sir, he doesn´t say that anywhere, unlike the guy he was answering does in the other direction. Good to know that you think the logic of the guy writting before him is flawed and it´s "ignoring the truth". :lol:

#2926 F.M.

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 19:33

This seems relevant to this thread as well

MTV3 : Heikki's manager summoned to Enstone but is still stuck in Maranello. 'Told to tell no one', Heikki exclusively revealed to us earlier.



#2927 Taxi

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:00

Assuming things about others like that is a really ugly thing to do. I won't dislike you still for doing so, since I tend to give plenty of chances to everyone. Not that you should care of course, but I like to point it out just in case. :kiss:

Kimi did make a difference yesterday and such is my consideration about what he did. See that for instance his team-mate was not being noticeable at all with the same car.

But, that doesn't mean that stating that the Lotus was only the 4th fastest lap is fair or correct either. What speed trap did you look at? If you are talking about something like this that will surely lead you to a misleading conclusion.

Because live speed traps during the race were suggesting me on my phone that in spite of Alonso could register fastest laps during some laps, overall during the race the Lotus registered faster laps more firmly. You may think (or maybe not) that was because Alonso took out less from his car than Kimi did, but looking at the tires field I think it just seemed that the Lotus was managing the tires much better in this track (actually the Lotus has shown some brilliance in that regard at some tracks, while yeah, in others it was the opposite maybe). Only by the end of the race (when it actually didn't matter anymore) the hards seemed to work better for Ferrari.

So yeah, I think Lotus was a faster car yesterday, the tires are part of the car after all and those seemed to work better for Lotus at Yibbi Dabbi. It is also that part regarding the Renault engines (see how Williams was unusually good again).

Kimi did make a difference yesterday, he was really good and special, but I don't buy that the Lotus was just the 4th fastest car yesterday as you stated. Sorry, I just don't agree with it.





Ok I take your justification and don't agree. 4 th fastest and Kimi made it work better. In part because Alonso did not nail Quali, and Webber and Maldonado couldn't make a proper start.




#2928 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:16

This seems relevant to this thread as well

Man, I hope they swap Grosjean for Heikki. A thousand times over.

#2929 Vesuvius

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:24

Man, I hope they swap Grosjean for Heikki. A thousand times over.


I don't know...for finns it wouldn't be too nice to see other finn to lose and to see Heikki quite often ahead of Kimi after quali wouldn't be too nice...althought after the race it would be Kimi more often in front. Heikki would be saver for Lotus however as he won't do stupid things like Grosjean and is amazing over one lap, he also has many friends at his former team...so it's possible and we already know Heikki has asked from Lotus a seat, Boullier said they will sit down with him and his managers but there wouldn't be place in their team as a racing driver because Kimi and Romain stay....but things have changed since then and Romains seat is not so sure anymore.

Edited by Vesuvius, 06 November 2012 - 20:26.


#2930 race addicted

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:27

...especially not if Total follows Pic...

#2931 korzeniow

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:36

...especially not if Total follows Pic...


Any source to back this claim up?

#2932 race addicted

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:44

I picked it up in the Caterham-thread.

#2933 Trust

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 21:05

I don't know...for finns it wouldn't be too nice to see other finn to lose and to see Heikki quite often ahead of Kimi after quali wouldn't be too nice...althought after the race it would be Kimi more often in front. Heikki would be saver for Lotus however as he won't do stupid things like Grosjean and is amazing over one lap, he also has many friends at his former team...so it's possible and we already know Heikki has asked from Lotus a seat, Boullier said they will sit down with him and his managers but there wouldn't be place in their team as a racing driver because Kimi and Romain stay....but things have changed since then and Romains seat is not so sure anymore.

You rate Heikki too much.

#2934 DrF

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 21:10

Man, I hope they swap Grosjean for Heikki. A thousand times over.

Yes

#2935 Anja

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 21:29

Man, I hope they swap Grosjean for Heikki. A thousand times over.

My vote for no. Kovalainen is a bit overrated in my opinion, Grosjean is more error prone but I think he has much more raw speed. He should be much stronger next year.

#2936 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 21:35

My vote for no. Kovalainen is a bit overrated in my opinion, Grosjean is more error prone but I think he has much more raw speed. He should be much stronger next year.

You know, there was a time when they said that Kovy looked to be just as fast as Kimi. When he came up through the ranks. He could use a second chance in a quick car. Would bring in the points and even surprise some people methinks.

#2937 tarmac

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 21:58

This seems relevant to this thread as well


This quote is made up..

#2938 grunge

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:51

i'd have Grosjean over Heikki anytime..Lotus need to be a little more patient with the Frenchman..he will come good

#2939 grunge

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:13

On the Lotus rumors.

1.These really arent new..we hear about the Enstone based team selling out every year.yet it never happens.

2.As Korzeniew pointed out,the team just spent a truck load of money on CFD,a new state of the art wind tunnel(reads Scarbsf1) amongst other things..this made their yearly budget even higher than Mercedes GP this season..Highly unlikely a team would be investing this much into a project if they are thinking of leaving the sport next year.

3.KR's strongly rumored to have agreed on a 10 million salary for next year..that is no lean amount no matter how good the driver is.if Lotus can afford that ,then where are the big financial troubles exactly?

4.As per rumors and KR's post race comments,it does look like the team may be financially 'stretched' but then other than Ferrari and RB,who isnt?..Even Mclaren were rumored to no longer be in a position to pay heavy salaries to top guys like Hamilton.

5.With KR,the returning WDC winning in AD..if they cant get new sponsors now,then no other team will either.

Edited by grunge, 07 November 2012 - 05:15.


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#2940 Torsion

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:18

The team appears to be running the device today:

Posted Image



#2941 pryanjack

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:25

The team appears to be running the device today:

Posted Image


... and that looks like pre-coanda exhaust

#2942 korzeniow

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:07

So they don't have engine cover manufactured for both systems, the DRD and Coanda together.

Then it's true, it doesn't look like DRD will be raced this season

#2943 Zava

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:10

So they don't have engine cover manufactured for both systems, the DRD and Coanda together.

Then it's true, it doesn't look like DRD will be raced this season

I think they have separate panels for exhaust area and DRD area, don't they?
the reason behind running the older exhaust could be that they want to test it with the specification used when they first tried the DRD.

#2944 korzeniow

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:14

I think they have separate panels for exhaust area and DRD area, don't they?
the reason behind running the older exhaust could be that they want to test it with the specification used when they first tried the DRD.


That seems reasonable, we will see

#2945 korzeniow

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:31

Some more pictures:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#2946 Torsion

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:05

Some more pictures:


Thanks.

Is it me or does the DRD look more refined than they last ran it?



#2947 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:11

Thanks.

Is it me or does the DRD look more refined than they last ran it?

Im sorry. But I seem to have missed when we went from "Lotus DDRS" to DRD. What is DRD now? Double Reduction Drag or something?

#2948 Zava

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:12

Im sorry. But I seem to have missed when we went from "Lotus DDRS" to DRD. What is DRD now? Double Reduction Drag or something?

drag reduction device

#2949 boldhakka

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:18

Does anyone have a good idea about who replaced Mike Elliot as head of aero after he went to Merc?

#2950 Youichi

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 13:19

Does anyone have a good idea about who replaced Mike Elliot as head of aero after he went to Merc?


Dirk DeBeer is and was Head of Aero, Mike Elliot wasn't head of aero at Lotus.