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X-Games and FIA/FIM


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#1 sesku

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:47

Hi, after reading the news on Marcus Gronholm crash and Toomas Heikkinen suffered a broken ankle at X-games, I have question in mind. Do motorsport activities in X-Games such as rallycross, motorcross and enduro endorsed by FIA/FIM. Do they have to follow safety requirement and rules by FIA/FIM or not? I find that rallycross event in X-games is too much like a video game and look pretty dangerous compared to their counterpart at Europe.

Edited by sesku, 02 July 2012 - 16:59.


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#2 Clatter

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 12:51

Hi, after reading the news on Marcus Gronholm crash at X-games, I have question in mind. Do motorsport activities in X-Games such as rallycross, motorcross and enduro endorsed by FIA/FIM. Do they have to follow safety requirement and rules by FIA/FIM or not? I find that rallycross event in X-games is too much like a video game and look pretty dangerous compared to their counterpart at Europe.


Only if they are competing under the FIA banner. There are plenty of motorsports that have nothing to do with the FIA.

#3 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 13:00

Sort of. The FIA delegates those issues to the national sporting body(in America, ACCUS) who let the individual series handle it.

Nevermind the FIA in all of this, if it was "too dangerous" the insurance people/local govt wouldn't approve it.

#4 tormave

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 13:36

Having seen both accidents on YouTube it's pretty clear the track was built by people with racing experience only from Playstation games and Gymkhana videos. Those morons should count their blessings they didn't kill Loeb...

#5 HaydenFan

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 13:53

Sort of. The FIA delegates those issues to the national sporting body(in America, ACCUS) who let the individual series handle it.

Nevermind the FIA in all of this, if it was "too dangerous" the insurance people/local govt wouldn't approve it.


And in reality, when they are allowing 14, 15, 16 year old kids participate in the Big Air skateboarding (Danny Way's 2008 Accident), rally cars with roll cages and seatbelts, and everything that makes a race car safe is nothing.

#6 sesku

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 14:45

Having seen both accidents on YouTube it's pretty clear the track was built by people with racing experience only from Playstation games and Gymkhana videos. Those morons should count their blessings they didn't kill Loeb...

Thats the problem, the track itself look very narrow for 6-8 car to race each other. Sometime I think that X-games intentionally make the track narrow and dangerous (i.e rallycross joker lap's overhead jump really unnecessary, riding motoX between narrow gap of massive stadium column) because for them, getting injured is cool and show you are true x-gamer.

Edited by sesku, 02 July 2012 - 15:38.


#7 Myrvold

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 15:17

Having seen both accidents on YouTube it's pretty clear the track was built by people with racing experience only from Playstation games and Gymkhana videos. Those morons should count their blessings they didn't kill Loeb...


Like the way you make Loeb's life more important than the others!

But this is Global Rallycross style. Sverre Isachsen got DQ'd from a race earlier this season, when he thought he didn't have enough speed to make the jump, he stopped, and got DQ'd. Those RX tracks, are not the way RX tracks should be. It's sad really.

However, the fact that the drivers refused to drive before they fixed the jump made it somewhat better, but I thought safety was more important in the land where everyone can sue eachother for small things!

Edited by Myrvold, 02 July 2012 - 15:18.


#8 Magoo

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 15:24

I'm sure this sounds very negative but from what I have been able to see, Global RallyCross and the X Games rallycross event = clown act.

I can watch most any sort of motor sport but I don't want to watch this.

I think I saw all this 30+ years ago. The guy's name was Joie Chitwood and he seemed to have a better grasp of what he was doing than this outfit.

#9 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 15:29

I kinda can't watch the X-Games anymore, it's getting too into the daredevil side of things instead of the sporting side. It's not like vert ramp skating/BMX isn't dangerous enough; if someone gets killed on that ridiculous ramp Way came up with you're going to get nimby parents wanting their kids to take down their mini-ramps in their backyards, someone will then want it outlawed (as if it isn't already).

I see they've now got motocross racing one on one, with giant kicker ramps on the track so the riders will have to do a trick 40 feet in the air next to each other - while trying to race? It's like someone in the X-Games *wants* someone killed. Pastrana's double back flip should have been the close of the "let's just let them keep pushing" aspect of it.




#10 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 15:40

I'm sure this sounds very negative but from what I have been able to see, Global RallyCross and the X Games rallycross event = clown act.

I can watch most any sort of motor sport but I don't want to watch this.

I think I saw all this 30+ years ago. The guy's name was Joie Chitwood and he seemed to have a better grasp of what he was doing than this outfit.


4million viewers apparently, but I'm trying to confirm.

#11 smitten

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 16:54

4million viewers apparently, but I'm trying to confirm.


Globally?


#12 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 17:03

Dunno, is it televised internationally? And even so, most of those viewers will be American.

#13 smitten

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 17:11

Dunno, is it televised internationally? And even so, most of those viewers will be American.


Dunno. You said 4 mil viewers, I was asking in what market.

#14 HaydenFan

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 17:14

Dunno. You said 4 mil viewers, I was asking in what market.


ABC/ESPN say 4 million. Not where, but how many. IMO, even if it's a national number, it is not a very high number.

#15 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 18:08

That'd be the third highest 'motorsport event' after every NASCAR Cup race and the Indy 500. Two and a half times a Nationwide race and 3 times the best Indycar race(non 500).

#16 HaydenFan

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 18:13

That'd be the third highest 'motorsport event' after every NASCAR Cup race and the Indy 500. Two and a half times a Nationwide race and 3 times the best Indycar race(non 500).


The number's I heard watching the X-Games (non-motorsport events) mention that 4 million watch the X-Games. Whether they watch Rallycross or skateboarding or anything else isn't separated. And when Pastrana went out before the final, I would bet about 2/3rds, if not 3/4's of the viewers left.

#17 Clatter

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 21:56

Having seen both accidents on YouTube it's pretty clear the track was built by people with racing experience only from Playstation games and Gymkhana videos. Those morons should count their blessings they didn't kill Loeb...


Don't you think the drivers have some responsibility? If it's too dangerous they could always say no.

#18 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 23:09

I saw a couple of X-Games races yesterday by chance, only because it followed Euro 2012 final. It seems ridiculous as a race, since there wasn't any physical room for cars to actually drive by each other. Not sure what the point of it was.

#19 Myrvold

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 23:54

Don't you think the drivers have some responsibility? If it's too dangerous they could always say no.


As long as the contracts they have allows them too without getting sued for insane amounts of money. And this being raced in the US, that might've been an actual problem.

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#20 Magoo

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:02

Don't you think the drivers have some responsibility? If it's too dangerous they could always say no.


No, they really can't say no. No offense but that is totally naive.



#21 ashley313

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:04

4 million viewers for coverage of the games...the broadcast blocks include all of the sports together. If you tune in for skateboarding, you have to see some Rallyx and BMX too.

I saw absolutely no point in the rallyx event. The qualifying heats were a joke. If someone stops on course, they have to restart the race from the beginning. If someone jumps the start, re order the "grid" and start again. Red flag? re grid and start all over. Their little .7 mile track had no room to pass (as if anyone got close enough to pass, besides when crashing into each other), didn't really require any skill to navigate, and didn't have a long enough straight to build enough speed for a legitimate jump. And then you have concrete lamp posts exposed, dangerous jumps, and incredibly slow and disorganized safety response after accidents. Loeb was able to win just by being the first car into the first corner while everyone else took each other out. When the second place car finishes with three tires, you know it wasn't the most demanding course....

I hope the summer x games are more interesting in person. The skateboarding was a snoozefest, the BMX riders seemed to be by themselves and going pretty slowly most of the time. I really enjoy the winter x games, but this was borrrrrr ing!

#22 sesku

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 04:51

Don't you think the drivers have some responsibility? If it's too dangerous they could always say no.


no, they don't. ask Toomas Heikkinen. The jump has no escape road. there is no place to escape if you want to abort the jump. It whether you make it or crash head on into pile of dirt. If you stop, you get DQ. This is totally absurd.

#23 Clatter

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 10:00

no, they don't. ask Toomas Heikkinen. The jump has no escape road. there is no place to escape if you want to abort the jump. It whether you make it or crash head on into pile of dirt. If you stop, you get DQ. This is totally absurd.


So he didn't have the option of checking it out for himself and refusing on the grounds that he thought he was too dangerous? Sorry, but as bad as the organisation of the track might be, the drivers still have to accept some responsibility for their own actions.

#24 Clatter

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 10:02

As long as the contracts they have allows them too without getting sued for insane amounts of money. And this being raced in the US, that might've been an actual problem.



No, they really can't say no. No offense but that is totally naive.


I disagree. If they thought it was too dangerous then regardless of their contract they could refuse and I doubt they would get sued.

#25 Magoo

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:34

I disagree. If they thought it was too dangerous then regardless of their contract they could refuse and I doubt they would get sued.


It's not about contracts or lawsuits. If performers don't perform, they don't get paid. Their sponsors get no exposure, the show goes on with someone else, and the racer goes out of business.

Do not bother to argue with me about this. You are on the wrong side of decades of motorsports history. What you suggest is how track owners and promoters kept safety out of racing for all those years. They knew racer boycotts are futile and pointless, so go ahead and walk out. There are always more idiots willing to risk their necks for a nickel.

#26 Clatter

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:43

It's not about contracts or lawsuits. If performers don't perform, they don't get paid. Their sponsors get no exposure, the show goes on with someone else, and the racer goes out of business.

Do not bother to argue with me about this. You are on the wrong side of decades of motorsports history. What you suggest is how track owners and promoters kept safety out of racing for all those years. They knew racer boycotts are futile and pointless, so go ahead and walk out. There are always more idiots willing to risk their necks for a nickel.


That doesn't absolve the drivers of their responsibility.

#27 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:58

Well the responsibility with something like XGames/Rallycross is not to enter it to begin with.

#28 anbeck

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 12:15

Just looked up all this stuff on youtube.... WTF?????? How can anybody put together such a track? And how can anybody agree on actually racing there?

#29 Magoo

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 12:43

That doesn't absolve the drivers of their responsibility.


Nobody said it did. The point is: you can't make track safety the responsibility of the drivers. It is truly not in their power. They can only decide whether to race at a given facility, and in the end, the withholding of their services does not make much difference to the track owners. They can always find more suckers to fill a field and the show will go on.

Naturally, the responsibility for track safety rests with the track owners and operators. They own and operate the facilities, he said redundantly. They have the power to fix the problems, nobody else.


Edited by Magoo, 03 July 2012 - 12:43.


#30 Magoo

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 12:52

I can't be the only one to have noticed that except for the X games date, the entire Global RallyCross season is hosted by Bruton Smith's Speedway Motorsports Inc. facilities.

#31 ashley313

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 13:26

It's not about contracts or lawsuits. If performers don't perform, they don't get paid. Their sponsors get no exposure, the show goes on with someone else, and the racer goes out of business.

Do not bother to argue with me about this. You are on the wrong side of decades of motorsports history. What you suggest is how track owners and promoters kept safety out of racing for all those years. They knew racer boycotts are futile and pointless, so go ahead and walk out. There are always more idiots willing to risk their necks for a nickel.

Yeah...racer boycotts are so futile that the organizers at the X Games decided to change the jump when the drivers refused to drive. :stoned:

#32 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 13:52

It looks to me like launch ramps are designed wrong in regards to the timing of the cars' suspension compression/unweighting.



#33 Tsarwash

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 14:03

Nobody said it did. The point is: you can't make track safety the responsibility of the drivers. It is truly not in their power. They can only decide whether to race at a given facility, and in the end, the withholding of their services does not make much difference to the track owners. They can always find more suckers to fill a field and the show will go on.

Naturally, the responsibility for track safety rests with the track owners and operators. They own and operate the facilities, he said redundantly. They have the power to fix the problems, nobody else.

There's a difference between normal motor racing and stuff that has bloody ramps in it. No matter how much sponsor pressure that might have been, each driver had the choice of saying, 'No, that's a stupid and dangerous track, and I'm not doing it.' You cannot absolve the drivers of all responsibility, after all, it's them that has to spend the time in hospital, not the sponsors.


#34 Magoo

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 14:51

There's a difference between normal motor racing and stuff that has bloody ramps in it. No matter how much sponsor pressure that might have been, each driver had the choice of saying, 'No, that's a stupid and dangerous track, and I'm not doing it.' You cannot absolve the drivers of all responsibility, after all, it's them that has to spend the time in hospital, not the sponsors.


Nobody absolved the drivers of "all responsibility." I am wondering if you enjoy reading at all or if you just like to type. :D

#35 Clatter

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:14

No, they really can't say no. No offense but that is totally naive.



Nobody absolved the drivers of "all responsibility." I am wondering if you enjoy reading at all or if you just like to type. :D


Do you bother to read what you type?


#36 sesku

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 11:50

Reaction of driver about the X-Games rallycross gap.

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

Most American driver tend to say yes to gap. I find Travis Pastrana comment is not matured at all.



#37 Magoo

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 15:15

Do you bother to read what you type?


We are confusing two different things: 1) the drivers' responsibility for their own safety and 2) the track operators' responsibility to provide a safe facility.

Track safety is not ultimately the responsibility of the drivers. They have little or no power over the matter, especially compared to the track operator. They can only provide input and the only lever they have is the threat of withholding their services. Any improvements they can achieve will be acting through the track operator and sanctioning body.

Edited by Magoo, 04 July 2012 - 18:10.


#38 Clatter

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:08

We are confusing two different things: 1) the drivers' responsibility for their own safety and 2) the track operators' responsibility to provide a safe facility.

Track safety is not ultimately the responsibility of the drivers. They have little or no power over the matter, especially compared to the track operator. They can only provide input and the only lever they have is the threat of withholding their services. Any improvements they can achieve will be acting through the track operator and sanctioning body.


I'm not confusing anything. If a driver considers a track to be unsafe he can refuse to drive. If they take the decision to drive anyway then that's their own responsibility. This doesn't absolve the circuit operators from their responsibilities to provide a safe environment, but the drivers also have to share in that. And that's especially true in this sort of situation where stunts are being performed rather than normal circuit driving as it should be easier to see the pitfalls.