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The F1 2012 season so far: BBC F1 TV and 5 live pundits' view


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#1 kosmos

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 14:16

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/18608243

Best driver?

Gary Anderson: "Fernando Alonso. This year has confirmed his talent at being able to grab a situation that would be out of most drivers' reach and bring home a result that the car does not deserve."
Season so far: in numbers

Ben Edwards: "Alonso. Both of his wins in Malaysia and Valencia have depended on talent, skill, judgement and self-discipline. Brilliant."

James Allen: "No doubt about this one. It has to be Alonso. He's leading the championship in a car that has no right to be there. It's getting better, but at the start of the year no-one would have given you tuppence for his chances of leading at this stage. He's really raised his game this year."

Jake Humphrey: "No question. Alonso. The only thing I'm unsure about with Fernando is whether he's the best currently, or the best ever. He is aggressive, smart, brave and incredibly consistent. The other 23 on the grid could all learn something from him."

Jennie Gow: "I never expected to say this but again, Fernando Alonso. I thought his drive in Malaysia (where he won) was a lot to do with luck and good fortune but actually, having seen him win in Valencia he is the most skilful driver I think I have ever seen with my own eyes on a track."



The BBC guys think that so far, Fernando is the best in 2012. No surprise I guess.

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#2 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 14:33

Good read. Thanks Kos!!!

#3 Lemans

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 14:44

I keep hearing these "journalists" say the Ferrari has "no right to be there" when they win or score points. It's such bullshit. Is it not obvious to these geniuses that winter testing was a long time ago? The car has been good for a long time now. Wake up.





#4 SirRacer

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 14:56

Best driver?
Gary Anderson: "Fernando Alonso. This year has confirmed his talent at being able to grab a situation that would be out of most drivers' reach and bring home a result that the car does not deserve."
Season so far: in numbers

Ben Edwards: "Alonso. Both of his wins in Malaysia and Valencia have depended on talent, skill, judgement and self-discipline. Brilliant."

James Allen: "No doubt about this one. It has to be Alonso. He's leading the championship in a car that has no right to be there. It's getting better, but at the start of the year no-one would have given you tuppence for his chances of leading at this stage. He's really raised his game this year."

Jake Humphrey: "No question. Alonso. The only thing I'm unsure about with Fernando is whether he's the best currently, or the best ever. He is aggressive, smart, brave and incredibly consistent. The other 23 on the grid could all learn something from him."

Jennie Gow: "I never expected to say this but again, Fernando Alonso. I thought his drive in Malaysia (where he won) was a lot to do with luck and good fortune but actually, having seen him win in Valencia he is the most skilful driver I think I have ever seen with my own eyes on a track."


And when I suggested here in this forum that with Fernando we could be seeing the best driver in the history, some people laughed.

There you go, I'm not the only one to think it.

#5 as65p

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 15:11

I keep hearing these "journalists" say the Ferrari has "no right to be there" when they win or score points. It's such bullshit. Is it not obvious to these geniuses that winter testing was a long time ago? The car has been good for a long time now. Wake up.


Wow, such praise from a McLaren fan, the tifosi will be delighted.

#6 sumpthy

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 15:11

I can't understand how James Allen can possibly think Vettel to win the WDC and McLaren to win the WCC considering Webber and Button's comparative performances this season.

#7 kosmos

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 15:12

And when I suggested here in this forum that with Fernando we could be seeing the best driver in the history, some people laughed.

There you go, I'm not the only one to think it.


Dude, it's Jake Humphrey, Jake Humphrey. :lol:

Edited by kosmos, 04 July 2012 - 15:12.


#8 velgajski1

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 15:17

And when I suggested here in this forum that with Fernando we could be seeing the best driver in the history, some people laughed.

There you go, I'm not the only one to think it.


Seems Jake Humprey started following F1 in 2009., and never saw likes of Senna or Schumacher :)

#9 zk12

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 15:22

Seems Jake Humprey started following F1 in 2009., and never saw likes of Senna or Schumacher :)

nope, whether people like it or not: Alonso is more impressive.
Although Alonso hasnt won Monaco, there once again he has shown his superiority. he was cruising around ans saving tyres for many laps before showing his potential just before the pit stops.
and in valencia he did the same again. just looking at this is so impressive and so unique that for me this (his potential to adapt to the given circumstances) means more than race wins and championships.
Never seen before, and maybe never again. we should be thankful for having the pleasure to witness this. he is really outwising the others.

Edited by zk12, 04 July 2012 - 15:23.


#10 ali_M

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 15:38

And when I suggested here in this forum that with Fernando we could be seeing the best driver in the history, some people laughed.

There you go, I'm not the only one to think it.


So you have one that agrees. This doesn't make it so.

Memories are short and we often think the greatest thing is what we are currently experiencing. It's a good motivator for now and it sure enhances our experience when we're convinced we're witnessing the best EVER. But don't let us get ahead of ourselves. Abilities cycle and they come and go. I don't know if there'll ever be a best EVER. It doesn't make sense anyway. We are indeed witnessing a great talent likely performing at his full potential, but that's about it. There are currently others among him, others before him, and there'll be others to come for sure.

Edited by ali_M, 04 July 2012 - 15:39.


#11 SirRacer

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 17:03

Seems Jake Humprey started following F1 in 2009., and never saw likes of Senna or Schumacher :)

Well I don't know about him, but I've followed Senna and Schumacher.

#12 rsaca

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 17:15

Schumacher NEVER had any real competition until Alonso came along in the Renault. Hakkinen only lasted a couple of years and even he won a championship against Schumacher.

Senna is a myth, a legend, and while I think he's the best driver I've seen, he only had Prost and later Mansell to deal with.

Alonso, on the other hand, has battled through fierce competition and honestly am shocked how he has put the car on places it shouldn't be. A lot of people say he has been very lucky but if he's leading the WDC, it's not called luck... It's called being the best driver right now.

Whether he'll be the best driver ever, time will tell (I hope he is), but for now he's well on his way to be the BEST.

Edited by rsaca, 04 July 2012 - 18:17.


#13 aditya-now

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 18:06

Dude, it's Jake Humphrey, Jake Humphrey. :lol:


The same Jake Humphrey that thinks that La Furia Roja is the best football team in the history of the sport. Ahead of Brazil 1970. Well, with that he might have even a point.

To spin the parallel further, that would make one Fernando Alonso ahead of Ayrton Senna.


#14 Lemans

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 18:21

Wow, such praise from a McLaren fan, the tifosi will be delighted.


No. Just tired of these silly 'talking points'. It smells like lazy, american political punditry.



#15 revlec

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 18:21

The question is how good/bad is the Ferrari?
I have never read here since Alonso is at Ferrari that the car is(has been) competitive. He wins because he is the best ever, and loses because car is crap.

Last year VET was the best ever(according to pundits) and this year ALO is the best ever(according to the same pundits). My opinion is that they don't have a clue.
With MAS in the other seat, the discussion is worthless.. VET has a better and stronger team mate and i respect him for that.

Fact is, MAS is(still) there because Ferrari(Alonso?) don't want a second competitive driver(i just have heard a Di Montezemolo interview and he said they are not looking for another driver).

Edited by D.M.N., 05 July 2012 - 17:04.
Remove "Alonso fans are so insecure it's very funny.. " - adds zero to post.


#16 rsaca

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 18:26

Alonso fans are so insecure it's very funny.. The question is how good/bad is the Ferrari?
I have never read here since Alonso is at Ferrari that the car is(has been) competitive. He wins because he is the best ever, and loses because car is crap.

Last year VET was the best ever(according to pundits) and this year ALO is the best ever(according to the same pundits). My opinion is that they don't have a clue.
With MAS in the other seat, the discussion is worthless.. VET has a better and stronger team mate and i respect him for that.

Fact is, MAS is(still) there because Ferrari(Alonso?) don't want a second competitive driver(i just have heard a Di Montezemolo interview and he said they are not looking for another driver).


Fair enough. Here's a question for you:

If Alonso was driving a Lotus or a Red Bull, how many wins do you reckon he'd have?

#17 revlec

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 18:30

Fair enough. Here's a question for you:

If Alonso was driving a Lotus or a Red Bull, how many wins do you reckon he'd have?


I reckon Less wins than VET if he was driving for RedBull... In case you forgot VET too is a 2xWDC and i think he is faster than ALO in qualifing. If you meant ALO in RedBull with MAS in the second seat, then you have a point.



#18 revlec

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 18:40

All this praise is based on his victories in Malaysia and Valencia. Fair enough. Unfortunately for pundits, Perez was 2nd driving a Sauber in Malaysia. So if ALO is the best ever, Perez is the next Senna.
Valencia was a deserved victory and all the stars were aligned that sunday. In normal circumstances, despite all his fantastic overtakes(he was on soft tyres with limited life compare to the harder compound other drivers were using) he would have come 5th/6th around Maldonado-Raikkonen.

Don't get me wrong, i respect the guy and recognise his talent, but just as BUT victory last year in Canada, i was not really impressed by ALO victory in Valencia this year.

Edited by D.M.N., 05 July 2012 - 17:05.
remove deleted quote


#19 mknight

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 18:47

All this praise is based on his victories in Malaysia and Valencia. Fair enough. Unfortunately for pundits, Perez was 2nd driving a Sauber in Malaysia. So if ALO is the best ever, Perez is the next Senna.
Valencia was a deserved victory and all the stars were aligned that sunday. In normal circumstances, despite all his fantastic overtakes(he was on soft tyres with limited life compare to the harder compound other drivers were using) he would have come 5th/6th around Maldonado-Raikkonen.

Don't get me wrong, i respect the guy and recognise his talent, but just as BUT victory last year in Canada, i was not really impressed by ALO victory in Valencia this year.


Yeah but who said people are calling him the best on the basis of these 2 wins?
Nobody was saying the same of Button after Canada. By the way I don't subscribe to the idea that he's the best ever, not yet anyway. I just find it far-fetched when people with an opinion start dismissing others (far more qualified) for having an opinion, just like you saying pundits don't have a clue. Forget journalists but many, probably the majority, of current and past F1 drivers rate Alonso as one of if not the best.

In the end it's just opinion. Sure, some people's opinions carry more weight than others, but ultimately there's no right or wrong answer. Some grandads see Stirling Moss, Fangio, Ascari etc. as the best ever. It's all completely subjective.

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#20 revlec

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 18:51

In the end it's just opinion. Sure, some people's opinions carry more weight than others, but ultimately there's no right or wrong answer. Some grandads see Stirling Moss, Fangio, Ascari etc. as the best ever. It's all completely subjective.



:up:
Fair.


#21 SirRacer

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 18:51

I reckon Less wins than VET if he was driving for RedBull... In case you forgot VET too is a 2xWDC and i think he is faster than ALO in qualifing. If you meant ALO in RedBull with MAS in the second seat, then you have a point.

So you say Alonso fans don't have the right to say that Alonso is the best ever because we don't know really if the car is good or bad BUT....

...you can say Vettel is faster than Alo in qualifying?

Double standards, double standards everywhere...

I'm looking forward to Alonso and Vettel sharing team  ;)

#22 SirRacer

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 19:05

All this praise is based on his victories in Malaysia and Valencia. Fair enough. Unfortunately for pundits, Perez was 2nd driving a Sauber in Malaysia. So if ALO is the best ever, Perez is the next Senna.
Valencia was a deserved victory and all the stars were aligned that sunday. In normal circumstances, despite all his fantastic overtakes(he was on soft tyres with limited life compare to the harder compound other drivers were using) he would have come 5th/6th around Maldonado-Raikkonen.

Don't get me wrong, i respect the guy and recognise his talent, but just as BUT victory last year in Canada, i was not really impressed by ALO victory in Valencia this year.

Well, Button's last year victory in canada was far more impressive than if Vettel would have won... Remember who started on pole?

#23 velgajski1

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 19:09

Fair enough. Here's a question for you:

If Alonso was driving a Lotus or a Red Bull, how many wins do you reckon he'd have?


In RBR - approximately same as he does now. Lotus has a big questionmark ahead of it, and for that it could go either way.

Alonso is so far best driver of 2012. season, no doubt about it. But Senna and Schumacher comparisons are really silly, just look at results Senna and Schumacher had in F1 and compare this to Alonso you will see that he is not on their level. Schumacher had no competition because he was so superior than all others. It is exactly the definition of best driver - you are so much better you have no competition.

Alonso can still turn it around by the end of his career and become true great of F1, but so can Vettel and Hamilton. My bet (though I'm a bad prognoser) is that neither of these guys will reach level of dominance Schumacher had.

Edited by velgajski1, 04 July 2012 - 19:12.


#24 Skinnyguy

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 19:27

Alonso is so far best driver of 2012. season, no doubt about it. But Senna and Schumacher comparisons are really silly.


:up:

Some guys lack of perspective is just gobsmacking. Schumacher was -let´s say he´s not anymore- a top driver for 15 years. During most of that time span, he was undisputed king of the grid. No other driver came close in talent. As much as I liked Mika, let´s say that status of undisputed king ended around 2003 when I think Alonso or Räikkönen -maybe even JPM that particular season- were already as good as him but didn´t have the machine to show. 15 years as a top driver, probably half of that time head and shoulders above every single rival.

Alonso hasn´t even been that long in F1, he´s been considered a top driver all the way since probably 2003, and he´s always had rivals with the same status than him fighting for the best on the grid status -first Schumacher and Kimi, then Kimi and Lewis, now Seb and Lewis have at least matched his performances- he has NEVER been head and shoulders above competition like Schumacher did, and for a good period.

So, if you have just wired to this sport, stay away from these comparisons... and if you were there and still think like this, sorry, you´re a fanboy.

#25 SirRacer

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 19:27

In RBR - approximately same as he does now. Lotus has a big questionmark ahead of it, and for that it could go either way.

Alonso is so far best driver of 2012. season, no doubt about it. But Senna and Schumacher comparisons are really silly, just look at results Senna and Schumacher had in F1 and compare this to Alonso you will see that he is not on their level. Schumacher had no competition because he was so superior than all others. It is exactly the definition of best driver - you are so much better you have no competition.

Alonso can still turn it around by the end of his career and become true great of F1, but so can Vettel and Hamilton. My bet (though I'm a bad prognoser) is that neither of these guys will reach level of dominance Schumacher had.

Vettel had no competition either last year, but suddenly he has this year, and he is driving against the same drivers :drunk:

#26 Lights

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 19:48

Once again with these comparisons. It's already hard enough to compare drivers in different teams. You cannot compare the careers of Senna and Alonso.

#27 Skellen

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 19:50

Last year VET was the best ever(according to pundits) and this year ALO is the best ever(according to the same pundits). My opinion is that they don't have a clue.


Can you provide with certain quotes? I dont remember any journalist/exper saying Vettel is the best ever, seriously. That he is among one of the best yes, but not this. Honestly, I dont remember/havent read any of such.

#28 Ferrari2183

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 20:13

All this praise is based on his victories in Malaysia and Valencia. Fair enough. Unfortunately for pundits, Perez was 2nd driving a Sauber in Malaysia. So if ALO is the best ever, Perez is the next Senna.
Valencia was a deserved victory and all the stars were aligned that sunday. In normal circumstances, despite all his fantastic overtakes(he was on soft tyres with limited life compare to the harder compound other drivers were using) he would have come 5th/6th around Maldonado-Raikkonen.

Don't get me wrong, i respect the guy and recognise his talent, but just as BUT victory last year in Canada, i was not really impressed by ALO victory in Valencia this year.

All the drivers Alonso was racing were on soft tyres during the first stint. In the second stint he had easy overtakes on Schumacher and Webber who were on mediums from the start and hadn't pit yet. In fact the only driver Alonso was racing during that second stint who was on mediums was Hamilton but we all know that even another record pit stop would have made no difference as he was chewing his tyres like gum.

It is one thing to lay down facts and another to completely to belittle one of the finest drives of the season with little to no fact.

As far as I can tell the only luck he had was the safety car (and I'll add that he is owed some safety car luck for 2010) and Vettel's retirement. All his other positions he worked for.

Edited by D.M.N., 05 July 2012 - 17:09.
remove "This post is full of crap on so many levels but let me just set one thing straight."


#29 joshb

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 20:36

I can't understand how James Allen can possibly think Vettel to win the WDC and McLaren to win the WCC considering Webber and Button's comparative performances this season.


Good point. I'm amazed he didn't wet the bed and tip Lewis to win it by a mile.

Even EJ has sensible views, I'm not really disagreeing with too much there (apart from anyone who doesn't tip Vettel to be WDC!)

#30 discover23

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 21:15

All this praise is based on his victories in Malaysia and Valencia. Fair enough. Unfortunately for pundits, Perez was 2nd driving a Sauber in Malaysia. So if ALO is the best ever, Perez is the next Senna.
Valencia was a deserved victory and all the stars were aligned that sunday. In normal circumstances, despite all his fantastic overtakes(he was on soft tyres with limited life compare to the harder compound other drivers were using) he would have come 5th/6th around Maldonado-Raikkonen.

Don't get me wrong, i respect the guy and recognise his talent, but just as BUT victory last year in Canada, i was not really impressed by ALO victory in Valencia this year.

Button crashed into everything but the safety car on his way to victory in Canada last year.

#31 discover23

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 21:22

Can you provide with certain quotes? I dont remember any journalist/exper saying Vettel is the best ever, seriously. That he is among one of the best yes, but not this. Honestly, I dont remember/havent read any of such.

Agree,some people just like to make up sh.. Just for the hell of it and pretend that their posts would be taken seriously.

#32 velgajski1

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 02:50

Vettel had no competition either last year, but suddenly he has this year, and he is driving against the same drivers :drunk:


What's your point?

Vettel can still win 2012. title, you know? Fact is that on some occasions Schumacher was more dominant, on some less, but alltogether he was convincingly dominating the sport for over 10 seasons. No other driver in modern F1 can boast with that.



#33 launcher

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:16

Alonso is so far best driver of 2012. season, no doubt about it. But Senna and Schumacher comparisons are really silly, just look at results Senna and Schumacher had in F1 and compare this to Alonso you will see that he is not on their level. Schumacher had no competition because he was so superior than all others. It is exactly the definition of best driver - you are so much better you have no competition.


Michael has more than double Senna's race wins and world titles, so according to your logic, its clear Senna was not at his level. Alonso has done more than enough to be mentioned amongst those names which is why most people do. Michael had no competition because he had no Alonso's Hamiltons and Vettels to race against for most of his career, and once Alonso got his hands on good machinery Michael never won another world title.

#34 velgajski1

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:29

Michael has more than double Senna's race wins and world titles, so according to your logic, its clear Senna was not at his level. Alonso has done more than enough to be mentioned amongst those names which is why most people do. Michael had no competition because he had no Alonso's Hamiltons and Vettels to race against for most of his career, and once Alonso got his hands on good machinery Michael never won another world title.


Michael was old in 2006 when he lost to better Alonso. Again, you misinterpret my points. Senna's career was short, too short. Fact that Schumacher has 7 titles just shows how remarkable he is. Senna had 3 titles and 2 2nd places over his 10 year career. Alonso has 2 titles and 1 2nd place over his first 10 years in F1. Same achievement Vettel has already reached for example. And if you look Schumacher's first 10 seasons in F1 you will see what a truly remarkable career is. And this is before Ferrari/Schumacher dominance.

And lets remember, Michael had no competition because he was better than competition. Alonso has Lewis and Vettel because he is not better (or not visibly better at least) than them. That's the point of dominance/being best/having no competition.

Edited by velgajski1, 05 July 2012 - 06:31.


#35 launcher

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:34

And lets remember, Michael had no competition because he was better than competition. Alonso has Lewis and Vettel because he is not better than them. That's the point of dominance/being best/having no competition.


You are failing to understand that all competition is not equal. Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve, Hakkinen were not as good as, Shumacher, Hamilton and Vettel, which have been Alonso's main rivals. Michael was clearly the best of his era but was flattered by a weak field.

Edited by launcher, 05 July 2012 - 06:35.


#36 velgajski1

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:40

You are failing to understand that all competition is not equal. Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve, Hakkinen were not as good as, Shumacher, Hamilton and Vettel, which have been Alonso's main rivals. Michael was clearly the best of his era but was flattered by a weak field.


I'll agree that we disagree on this. My view is that while all competition is not equal you cannot claim that Schumacher had it easier than Alonso or Hamilton or Vettel just because those aren't dominating (well, Vettel is on a good way though). You're clearly Alonso fan, and have complete right to believe he is best ever, just like a few hardcore Hakkinen fans might believe this for Hakkinen or Lewis fans for Lewis just to name few drivers.

My view is that results are most important, rest is more or less speculation, and while I do speculate too I do not give those speculations advantage over concrete results.

#37 launcher

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:50

I'll agree that we disagree on this. My view is that while all competition is not equal you cannot claim that Schumacher had it easier than Alonso or Hamilton or Vettel just because those aren't dominating (well, Vettel is on a good way though). You're clearly Alonso fan, and have complete right to believe he is best ever, just like a few hardcore Hakkinen fans might believe this for Hakkinen or Lewis fans for Lewis just to name few drivers.

My view is that results are most important, rest is more or less speculation, and while I do speculate too I do not give those speculations advantage over concrete results.



I never said Alonso was the best ever. Why can't you claim Schumacher had it easier if its true? Unless you think Hill, Coulthard, Mika, were as good as Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel, then he clearly did have it easier. In Michaels glory days there were only 2 top teams at any given moment, not 3 like today, which makes it much harder. If results are most important as you say, then Senna is clearly not at Schumachers level. I would disagree with you along with most of the F1 community.

Edited by launcher, 05 July 2012 - 06:51.


#38 zk12

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 07:27

What's your point?

Vettel can still win 2012. title, you know? Fact is that on some occasions Schumacher was more dominant, on some less, but alltogether he was convincingly dominating the sport for over 10 seasons. No other driver in modern F1 can boast with that.

he or his team (including brawn, todt, byrne etc.)?

#39 velgajski1

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:52

I never said Alonso was the best ever. Why can't you claim Schumacher had it easier if its true? Unless you think Hill, Coulthard, Mika, were as good as Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel, then he clearly did have it easier. In Michaels glory days there were only 2 top teams at any given moment, not 3 like today, which makes it much harder. If results are most important as you say, then Senna is clearly not at Schumachers level. I would disagree with you along with most of the F1 community.


Like I said, you're twisting my words.

When comparing Senna, Schumacher and Alonso first 10 seasons in F1 - Schumacher is approximately as successful as Senna. Alonso is clearly behind with his results being more comparable to Hakkinen than Schumacher and Alonso (altough, for me, Alonso is better than Hakkinen).

That being said, I have to reiterate that Alonso still seems hungry for victories, and may still become a 3-4x WDC or even more and a true legend. At this point - he just fell short few times when he had the chance (2007 and 2010 to be more precise).

Edited by velgajski1, 05 July 2012 - 08:53.


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#40 Raelene

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:56

You are failing to understand that all competition is not equal. Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve, Hakkinen were not as good as, Shumacher, Hamilton and Vettel, which have been Alonso's main rivals. Michael was clearly the best of his era but was flattered by a weak field.


Is there any possibility that they were good...but Michael made them look "ordinary"....any chance at all?

I'm pretty sure that is the point that was trying to be made..

#41 launcher

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:05

Is there any possibility that they were good...but Michael made them look "ordinary"....any chance at all?

I'm pretty sure that is the point that was trying to be made..



Is there any chance Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve, Mika were as good as Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel?? Anyone who has watched their careers would say zero. I understand the point he is trying to make but its an incorrect point. That is why seasoned observers ex drivers have been saying this era is so strong, and Michaels was weak.

#42 launcher

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:13

Like I said, you're twisting my words.

When comparing Senna, Schumacher and Alonso first 10 seasons in F1 - Schumacher is approximately as successful as Senna. Alonso is clearly behind with his results being more comparable to Hakkinen than Schumacher and Alonso (altough, for me, Alonso is better than Hakkinen).



No I was just using your criteria. Now you moved the goal posts and selecting the first 10 seasons instead of entire careers.

#43 Ferrari2183

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:18

Like I said, you're twisting my words.

When comparing Senna, Schumacher and Alonso first 10 seasons in F1 - Schumacher is approximately as successful as Senna. Alonso is clearly behind with his results being more comparable to Hakkinen than Schumacher and Alonso (altough, for me, Alonso is better than Hakkinen).

That being said, I have to reiterate that Alonso still seems hungry for victories, and may still become a 3-4x WDC or even more and a true legend. At this point - he just fell short few times when he had the chance (2007 and 2010 to be more precise).

I think this is a rather pointless discussion... All drivers, especially winning drivers, have their place in history but due to the nature of the sport, separating the driver from the car is near, if not, impossible.

Sure, some drivers are more exciting than others but then again the others have had better records than the exciting ones etc etc...

#44 Raelene

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:23

Is there any chance Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve, Mika were as good as Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel?? Anyone who has watched their careers would say zero. I understand the point he is trying to make but its an incorrect point. That is why seasoned observers ex drivers have been saying this era is so strong, and Michaels was weak.


see that's the thing about greatness...it can make others look ordinary....

Now I think Alonso is great - and will IMO be considered one of the 'greats of the sport".. he is IMO the best at the moment... but I think Jake Humphrey has been on the happy juice to make such a statement.

Edited by Raelene, 05 July 2012 - 09:24.


#45 ali_M

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:57

I never said Alonso was the best ever. Why can't you claim Schumacher had it easier if its true? Unless you think Hill, Coulthard, Mika, were as good as Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel, then he clearly did have it easier. In Michaels glory days there were only 2 top teams at any given moment, not 3 like today, which makes it much harder. If results are most important as you say, then Senna is clearly not at Schumachers level. I would disagree with you along with most of the F1 community.


For some it would seem that their favourite had it the hardest while achieving their results.

For some, it would seem that their favourite's era was the most challenging.

This is just a convenient way of making things fit to suit one's impression.

If Michael is dominating, he's having it easy with a great car or lousy fellow drivers. If Alonso dominates, then it's because he's just that good. If Alonso isn't dominating, then it's because the competition is so tight.

It was not so recently that Kimi was HUGE, until he met Massa at Ferrari. Suddenly his reputation was different.

We argue as if these guys are runners, cyclists or similar. Though they are supremely fit, they have cars to drive and teams to work with. Their car's competitiveness varies from season to season and from race to race. This will affect their overall competitiveness on race day. A race win goes to the team and driver. It couldn't happen without their combined efforts, but again, it would seem that when there's a win, it's about Alonso's greatness, but when the team doesn't win, it's about how the team messed up! :well:

Alonso/Renault got the better of Michael/Ferrari in 2006. This was a celebration for Alonso/Renault... not Alonso ALONE!. If you really watched that season, I cannot see how you would not appreciate that it was a fine battle to witness since either of them would have deserved the championship. Michael could easily have won as well. This 'he was old' thing just doesn't apply. It was how good he was then and he was definitely there. However, the car and team have to be there as well.

Micheal has been DEVASTATING in his career once given a dominant car. Alonso has demonstrated a similar capability and so has Vettel. I do believe that Alonso gets more out of his races than Vettel when he's not driving the best car or when he has to mix with the others in the race to get a good result. He consistently demonstrates this through his abilities and race craft. His greatness comes, not from from one hit wonders, but his consistent ability to not 'drop the ball' during a race and doing the maximum lap after lap. He is relentless, quick, a clean wheel to wheel racer, and consistently so.

IMO, the only way one can negate the car's influence is to look at what has been done with the car each driver has over seasons. How consistent are they? This thing of 'driver A beat driver B' to a championship while they are in different teams..... I just don't get it when it's a team sport with so many variables. Saying that one driver is better than the other based on his pace, race craft, how he contributes to the team's development of competitive machinery, how he contributes to the execution of race strategies as well as how he affects team spirit and moral... now THAT, IMO are points for discussion. Alonso is definitely up there in all those categories.... no doubt about that.

#46 Raelene

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:00

very good post

#47 SirRacer

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:33

For some it would seem that their favourite had it the hardest while achieving their results.

For some, it would seem that their favourite's era was the most challenging.

This is just a convenient way of making things fit to suit one's impression.

If Michael is dominating, he's having it easy with a great car or lousy fellow drivers. If Alonso dominates, then it's because he's just that good. If Alonso isn't dominating, then it's because the competition is so tight.

It was not so recently that Kimi was HUGE, until he met Massa at Ferrari. Suddenly his reputation was different.

We argue as if these guys are runners, cyclists or similar. Though they are supremely fit, they have cars to drive and teams to work with. Their car's competitiveness varies from season to season and from race to race. This will affect their overall competitiveness on race day. A race win goes to the team and driver. It couldn't happen without their combined efforts, but again, it would seem that when there's a win, it's about Alonso's greatness, but when the team doesn't win, it's about how the team messed up! :well:

Alonso/Renault got the better of Michael/Ferrari in 2006. This was a celebration for Alonso/Renault... not Alonso ALONE!. If you really watched that season, I cannot see how you would not appreciate that it was a fine battle to witness since either of them would have deserved the championship. Michael could easily have won as well. This 'he was old' thing just doesn't apply. It was how good he was then and he was definitely there. However, the car and team have to be there as well.

Micheal has been DEVASTATING in his career once given a dominant car. Alonso has demonstrated a similar capability and so has Vettel. I do believe that Alonso gets more out of his races than Vettel when he's not driving the best car or when he has to mix with the others in the race to get a good result. He consistently demonstrates this through his abilities and race craft. His greatness comes, not from from one hit wonders, but his consistent ability to not 'drop the ball' during a race and doing the maximum lap after lap. He is relentless, quick, a clean wheel to wheel racer, and consistently so.

IMO, the only way one can negate the car's influence is to look at what has been done with the car each driver has over seasons. How consistent are they? This thing of 'driver A beat driver B' to a championship while they are in different teams..... I just don't get it when it's a team sport with so many variables. Saying that one driver is better than the other based on his pace, race craft, how he contributes to the team's development of competitive machinery, how he contributes to the execution of race strategies as well as how he affects team spirit and moral... now THAT, IMO are points for discussion. Alonso is definitely up there in all those categories.... no doubt about that.

Why is Michael struggling now?

Drivers got better or he got worse?



#48 SeanValen

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:59

Why is Michael struggling now?

Drivers got better or he got worse?



If you get the fastest time at Monaco qualifying 2012, you should not be struggeling. it's a world class arena/best drivers/teams at Monaco, and he's been good there last 3 years and let down by his car/team or the FIA each time!

He's driving well given the amount of reliability he's had this year, it's us who's been robbed of watching ihim finish races.

This is first year the mercedes car is actually podium and occassional win worthy-depending on in season development. And even saying that, Michaels got the worst reliability of the drivers so far, but it is the best performance from the smallest points. Not bad at all for his age and 3rd decade of racing-can't compare with anyone else on the grid. When Alonso turns 40 and if he is around in f1 then or not, I think this comeback of Schumacher's-his Monaco qualifying and anything else he achieves iin the remaining races, in the longest season of them all, it will be appreciated more in time, with most of the retired drivers who had their mouths open about schumacher and what he should do with his life over with, you can see Michael's belief in himself in 2010, when he was coming back, paid off this year, no one is questioning his speed, now it's more can mercedes deliver? that's Schumacher's main victory-he's ready, is the team consistently? Right now he is one of a kind and perhaps won't have a comparision unless hamilton/alonso/vettel race in their 40s.


Edited by SeanValen, 05 July 2012 - 12:08.


#49 ali_M

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:03

Why is Michael struggling now?

Drivers got better or he got worse?


From my point of view, this is a difficult question to answer. It's easy to think that he's older and therefore slower. Very reasonable assumption especially with what little experience we've had with drivers his age. However, it's pretty clear that physically, he's extra-ordinarily young and fit looking. He's no doubt very different indeed.

I don't think he's at his peak, but he's not far off at all. He definitely approaches his racing differently as well, with an overall different temperament. He also has had to acclimatize to current F1 machinery, no refueling and the Pirellis.

I don't think the drivers are particularly any better. I don't think he's particularly worse either. I think too much credit is being given to him and too little to the car, team and how he tango's with them.

Again, this allotment of credit has a lot to do with the faith one has in the driver's ability.

I can guarantee you that if Alonso were struggling now, it would be because he's driving a shit car and he's with a lousy team.

Button is benefiting as well from such a perception. I can assure you that If Michael were in Button's position, he would definitely not be enjoying the confidence, well wishes for improvement from the paddock, pundits and race fans.

Rossi is riding for Ducati now. He's a lot older than the front runners. The same questions about his mojo and competitiveness are being raised. I don't know if you follow MotoGP, but the similarities are striking since Rossi has been just as successful in his career and he's currently struggling with Ducati and his teammate is doing better on the same bike now. I don't for a minute buy that he's lost it or that Hayden is suddenly better than he is.

#50 radosav

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:32

For some it would seem that their favourite had it the hardest while achieving their results.

For some, it would seem that their favourite's era was the most challenging.

This is just a convenient way of making things fit to suit one's impression.

If Michael is dominating, he's having it easy with a great car or lousy fellow drivers. If Alonso dominates, then it's because he's just that good. If Alonso isn't dominating, then it's because the competition is so tight.

It was not so recently that Kimi was HUGE, until he met Massa at Ferrari. Suddenly his reputation was different.

We argue as if these guys are runners, cyclists or similar. Though they are supremely fit, they have cars to drive and teams to work with. Their car's competitiveness varies from season to season and from race to race. This will affect their overall competitiveness on race day. A race win goes to the team and driver. It couldn't happen without their combined efforts, but again, it would seem that when there's a win, it's about Alonso's greatness, but when the team doesn't win, it's about how the team messed up! :well:

Alonso/Renault got the better of Michael/Ferrari in 2006. This was a celebration for Alonso/Renault... not Alonso ALONE!. If you really watched that season, I cannot see how you would not appreciate that it was a fine battle to witness since either of them would have deserved the championship. Michael could easily have won as well. This 'he was old' thing just doesn't apply. It was how good he was then and he was definitely there. However, the car and team have to be there as well.

Micheal has been DEVASTATING in his career once given a dominant car. Alonso has demonstrated a similar capability and so has Vettel. I do believe that Alonso gets more out of his races than Vettel when he's not driving the best car or when he has to mix with the others in the race to get a good result. He consistently demonstrates this through his abilities and race craft. His greatness comes, not from from one hit wonders, but his consistent ability to not 'drop the ball' during a race and doing the maximum lap after lap. He is relentless, quick, a clean wheel to wheel racer, and consistently so.

IMO, the only way one can negate the car's influence is to look at what has been done with the car each driver has over seasons. How consistent are they? This thing of 'driver A beat driver B' to a championship while they are in different teams..... I just don't get it when it's a team sport with so many variables. Saying that one driver is better than the other based on his pace, race craft, how he contributes to the team's development of competitive machinery, how he contributes to the execution of race strategies as well as how he affects team spirit and moral... now THAT, IMO are points for discussion. Alonso is definitely up there in all those categories.... no doubt about that.

i agree with you but you have to admit that schume had fantastic cars few seasons
http://www.youtube.c...tailpage#t=102s