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#1 Fat Boy

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 16:51

Anyone know what he got popped for? I talked to a fairly close source (had spoken with AJ Sat night) and he didn't know. Incredibly stupid.

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#2 Magoo

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 17:57

I dunno. Unless excess Red Bull can produce a false positive, I am at a loss. He did have a DUI a while back. Hard to say with a young guy. You think you know them as they come along but as they age, they changle. Who thought Jeremy Mayfield would grow to become a complete tool. I hope a) it's not true, just a bad result or if not, for a 2) speedy and surefire rehab.

#3 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 18:23

Half-info usually lets your imagination get the better of you but this does make me wonder

http://www.usatoday....nger/56100576/1

Especially the bit about if there was any doubt or room for it to be proved that it was an over the counter contamination or undeclared prescription, the announcement wouldn't have come just before the race.

I bet the "Roger, we have a problem" phone call was interesting...

#4 desmo

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 19:09

As long as there are sponsors using the series to promote their intoxicants, I don't really see the logic of testing drivers for intoxicants when not involved in motorsport. Seems mindlessly puritanical. Obviously if a driver were to be competing under the influence of intoxicants, that would be a completely different matter. I don't think there are any proven performance enhancing drugs for drivers, so it isn't a fairness of competition issue. This isn't the TdF.

#5 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 19:16

But he was tested during a race weekend. And in a series as corporate and conservative as NASCAR? Driver should be sat down just for being dumb enough to get caught.

#6 Magoo

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 19:31

This being Penske, I tend to believe the sample was A tested, and then B, C, X, Y, and Z tested just to make sure.

...Desmo makes a good point. There is a big heap o' morality marketing in the NASCAR drug policy. OTOH, you can't have impaired drivers on the track.

#7 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 19:34

They say there hasn't been a call for or schedule of the B test yet, which is why Allmendinger was "temporarily suspended". But I might be taking it a step too far to assume that if he had asked for the B test at 4pm on Saturday, he'd have been allowed to race that evening?

#8 desmo

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 20:28

Race weekend? Don't spare the rod. A driver probably shouldn't even have a glass of wine with dinner on race weekend.

#9 Fat Boy

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 21:11

They say there hasn't been a call for or schedule of the B test yet, which is why Allmendinger was "temporarily suspended". But I might be taking it a step too far to assume that if he had asked for the B test at 4pm on Saturday, he'd have been allowed to race that evening?


The person I talked to said the B sample was being tested.

I'm also a little bit of a loss to think of what could be used as a PED. I don't know if NASCAR even bothers with that side of it. Certainly about 1/2 of them could use something to ramp up their metabolism (Clenbuterol). How much weight has Montoya put on since F1?

The DUI didn't seem to hurt AJ. This is going to be different. Roger isn't putting up with this. I'll be highly surprised if he gets back in one of their cars (assuming the B comes out positive, too...which it always does). Forget that he had previous drivers with substance problems. It's too much of a corporate black eye now. Mayfield being the extreme scenario.

#10 Fat Boy

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 21:11

Race weekend? Don't spare the rod. A driver probably shouldn't even have a glass of wine with dinner on race weekend.


That might be a hard sell to most of them.

#11 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 21:21

The person I talked to said the B sample was being tested.

I'm also a little bit of a loss to think of what could be used as a PED. I don't know if NASCAR even bothers with that side of it. Certainly about 1/2 of them could use something to ramp up their metabolism (Clenbuterol). How much weight has Montoya put on since F1?

The DUI didn't seem to hurt AJ. This is going to be different. Roger isn't putting up with this. I'll be highly surprised if he gets back in one of their cars (assuming the B comes out positive, too...which it always does). Forget that he had previous drivers with substance problems. It's too much of a corporate black eye now. Mayfield being the extreme scenario.


Okay, but the public line at the moment is no one has asked for the B. Though I assume it will be done.

I thought at first it would be something 'harmless' since sports rules are way more strict than what human resources would allow in most companies. But based on the USA Today explanation of how these things go down, I think that because we got to the public announcement and suspension stage we are into stuff you shouldn't be taking if you want to drive for a team that had Kurt Busch and Al Unser Jr.

I doubt he's doing cocaine with oprhans, but so far everyone that has gotten in trouble has been for drug drugs, and anyone that had a good reason for their test results had it taken care of on the sly.

If I had to guess it would be something dumb but not horrific. A bit of weed, too many beers with lunch(Kentucky was a night race), etc.

#12 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 21:26

This is a partial list from a Jayski quoting a now expired news article from several years ago.

o Stimulants, such as amphetamine, methamphetamine, Ecstasy (MDMA), Eve (MDEA) and Phentermine.
o Narcotic analgesics, such as hydromorphone, methadone, morphine, oxycodone, oxymorphone, heroin, codeine and hydrocodone.
o Ephedrine, such as pseudoephedrine and phenylpropanolamine if used in a manner inconsistent with the instructions provided by the drug manufacturer or in a manner or amount that risks the health, safety or impairs a driver.
o Benzodiazepines, such as lorazepam (Ativan), oxazapam (Serax), temazepam (Restoril), Alpha-hydroxyalprazolam (Xanax) and Nordiazepam (Valium).
o Barbituates, such as amobarbital (Amytal) and secobarbital (Seconal).
o Performance enhancing drugs, such as Human Growth Hormone (hGH), as well as anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS), including testosterone.
o Muscle relaxers, such as carisoprodol (Soma), meprobamate (Miltown, Meprospan).
o Sleep aids, such as zolpidem (Ambien)
o Beta blockers, such as alpernolol and carteolol.
o Alcohol: A competitor is prohibited from consuming any alcohol 12 hours prior to or during on-track activity. A driver is considered unfit if the blood-alcohol level is above 20 milligrams per 100 milliliters (0.02 percent).
o Dietary supplements with a warning advising non-use if the purchaser is subject to a drug-testing program even though available without a prescription.
o Masking agents designed to avoid detection, including Aromatase inhibitors that may be used to biologically manipulate the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio, and/or using epitestosterone to artificially alter the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio.

#13 Magoo

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 00:49

It's just a shame, that's all.

#14 Magoo

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 14:17

RP this morning. I like this man maybe more than I used to at times. He seems to get wiser and classier as the years go by.

"We have a one-year contract with him. We'll have to assess the situation. We'll look at the details and understand it and make our move accordingly. At this point, it would be way premature for me to speculate what we might do. I think we've got to focus on our team and NASCAR. We've got good momentum. We've got to finish out this season strong. This will obviously, the outcome of this will dictate what will be the future from the standpoint of ourselves and any member of our team that would be in this situation.''

Penske on @SiriusXMNASCAR where is Allmendinger now: "I think he's probably laying low here trying to understand what the final test will be and then he'll deal with the outcome. .. He's a very good guy. I hate to see this. I'm more concerned about the individual than I am the circumstance. Long term, one way or another, he's a fighter. He's a good race driver and I'm sure he'll be fine. This is a speed bump that neither one of us contemplated and we have to deal with it professionally.''

#15 Fat Boy

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 16:40

This is a partial list from a Jayski quoting a now expired news article from several years ago.

o Stimulants, such as amphetamine, methamphetamine, Ecstasy (MDMA), Eve (MDEA) and Phentermine.
o Narcotic analgesics, such as hydromorphone, methadone, morphine, oxycodone, oxymorphone, heroin, codeine and hydrocodone.
o Ephedrine, such as pseudoephedrine and phenylpropanolamine if used in a manner inconsistent with the instructions provided by the drug manufacturer or in a manner or amount that risks the health, safety or impairs a driver.
o Benzodiazepines, such as lorazepam (Ativan), oxazapam (Serax), temazepam (Restoril), Alpha-hydroxyalprazolam (Xanax) and Nordiazepam (Valium).
o Barbituates, such as amobarbital (Amytal) and secobarbital (Seconal).
o Performance enhancing drugs, such as Human Growth Hormone (hGH), as well as anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS), including testosterone.
o Muscle relaxers, such as carisoprodol (Soma), meprobamate (Miltown, Meprospan).
o Sleep aids, such as zolpidem (Ambien)
o Beta blockers, such as alpernolol and carteolol.
o Alcohol: A competitor is prohibited from consuming any alcohol 12 hours prior to or during on-track activity. A driver is considered unfit if the blood-alcohol level is above 20 milligrams per 100 milliliters (0.02 percent).
o Dietary supplements with a warning advising non-use if the purchaser is subject to a drug-testing program even though available without a prescription.
o Masking agents designed to avoid detection, including Aromatase inhibitors that may be used to biologically manipulate the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio, and/or using epitestosterone to artificially alter the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio.



Then the test may be a full USADA/WADA test. Surprising, but if so, then there are many things you can get at GNC and health food stores that are illegal. If I had to guess, though, I'd guess some pot/THC is the culprit, but that's pure speculation. I don't know AJ well enough to know if he leans in that direction or not.

#16 Magoo

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 17:37

this came from AJ's email address:

Statement from AJ Allmendinger

Charlotte, NC (July 10, 2012)

“I have informed NASCAR that I have requested that the "B" sample be tested, following the steps according to NASCAR’s 2012 rule book regarding this situation. I fully respect NASCAR's drug usage policy and the reasons they have it. I am hoping this can get resolved as quickly as possible so that I can get back to driving the No. 22 Penske Racing Dodge. I am sorry that this has caused such a distraction for my Penske Racing team, our sponsors and fans. Obviously I would never do anything to jeopardize my opportunity here at Penske Racing or to my fellow drivers. I am very conscious about my training and health and would never knowingly take a prohibited drug.”

###

#17 Sisyphus

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 19:39

Race weekend? Don't spare the rod. A driver probably shouldn't even have a glass of wine with dinner on race weekend.


Wouldn't have been any motor racing prior to the '80's or '90's then...

#18 munks

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 01:35

Penske: "I'm more concerned about the individual than I am the circumstance.''


The way he's talking, it sounds more like a real problem (pot/alcohol) than some I-didn't-know-it-was-banned GNC substance or contaminated meat as one cyclist claimed. My guess? Hash brownies.

#19 Grumbles

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 11:06

I would have thought weed/hash/THC would be the worst possible drug for a racing driver. He'd be driving round the track thinking he's absolutely flying and with the race in the bag before realising he's still doing 50mph on the warmup lap. Then later he'd have to pit to pick up some more CD's and a couple of hotdogs...

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#20 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:49

I would have thought weed/hash/THC would be the worst possible drug for a racing driver. He'd be driving round the track thinking he's absolutely flying and with the race in the bag before realising he's still doing 50mph on the warmup lap. Then later he'd have to pit to pick up some more CD's and a couple of hotdogs...

That reminds me of a comment Carl Edwards made during a race. When the crew chief asked him "what do you need" he asked for some changes for the car and then was like "I could also use a nice box of Cheese-Its if you could get me that."

#21 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 13:21

Carl Edwards with an earnest sponsor mention? Never...

#22 Fat Boy

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 15:43

this came from AJ's email address:

Statement from AJ Allmendinger

.... I am sorry that this has caused such a distraction for my Penske Racing team, our sponsors and fans. Obviously I would never do anything to jeopardize my opportunity here at Penske Racing or to my fellow drivers. I am very conscious about my training and health and would never knowingly take a prohibited drug.

###



Interesting. This makes me think it might be some sort of PED or something of that sort. I know that there is stuff out there like DHEA (a building block of testosterone) that may be illegal on a drug test, but is in all sorts of over-the-counter athletic mixes. There is also a chemical stimulant called DMAA that is in several workout 'energy' mixes (NOxplodes and C-4 in particular). One of the guys on my team is a weight lifting gym-rat and has taken both. We are drug tested (I was pulled for a random sample last year). I've told him that he could get busted for that, so I think he doesn't use it a couple of days before going away on a race weekend.

If it were something of this nature, I'm really interested to see how NASCAR handles it. It would be a far cry from that Fike kid taking heroin or Mayfield on meth. Honestly, from what I know of AJ (admittedly, just an acquaintance) it would make some sense.

#23 Magoo

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 16:53

I have no inside info whatsoever but I am wondering if maybe Adderol or Ritalin or one of the other drugs of choice among overachieving gen Y/Millennials.

#24 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 18:33

Team Allmendinger is now saying it was a 'stimulant' but not which, and that they were just over the limit.

Don't know why you couldn't say that Sunday, but there you go.

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 11 July 2012 - 18:33.


#25 ensign14

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 18:39

LOL if it were indeed down to too much Red Bull.

#26 Magoo

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 19:57

Email from Tara:


Charlotte, NC (July 11, 2012)

“In an effort to help our colleagues in the media report on this in a timely and accurate manner, we wanted to provide some additional details regarding AJ’s sample “A” test results. AJ tested positive for a stimulant. He has no idea why the first test was positive, and he has never knowingly taken any prohibited substance. AJ is collecting his medicines and supplements for testing to determine whether an over the counter product caused his positive test. AJ and all of us at Walldinger Racing respect NASCAR's testing program, and he has requested that his "B" sample be tested as part of the process of getting to the bottom of this. We will have the opportunity to review all of the scientific data surrounding the test following the "B" sample test, but our understanding is that AJ's test was slightly above the threshold. As of this morning, we have not been given notice of when the testing of the “B” sample will take place. Thanks again for all of the support of our fans, team, and sponsors as we continue working through the process.”

-Tara Ragan, Vice President, Walldinger Racing Inc.

#27 Fat Boy

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 22:22

I have no inside info whatsoever but I am wondering if maybe Adderol or Ritalin or one of the other drugs of choice among overachieving gen Y/Millennials.


I believe these would be classified as stimulants as would the DMAA that I mentioned earlier. My guess is that any prescription drug would be allowed with a TUE (therapeutic use exemption). Having said that, AJ does strike me as a ADD type of a guy (he even walks on his toes all the time, which is one of the signs). This is going to really suck if he's getting a career ruined because of an over-the-counter workout powder. I have to think that NASCAR would be reasonable on this type of a thing, but who knows? The 'addiction' class that you'd go through for something of this nature would be pretty simple, I'd think. It's not like you were doing blow off a hooker's back.

#28 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 23:45

Heh!

I walk on my toes if I've got my shoes off, but I am a massive heel striker.


(If it is hookers and blow I hope decades from now someone is still alive to tell us how Penske reacted)

#29 Fat Boy

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 02:21

(If it is hookers and blow I hope decades from now someone is still alive to tell us how Penske reacted)


Well, in 1994...

#30 sblick

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:30

It seems in a story today on ESPN.com that Penske has expressed "concern" for AJ.

#31 MatsNorway

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:07

I find it funny that LSD is perfectly fine.. Not that you would race any better with it.

#32 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:13

I find it funny that LSD is perfectly fine.. Not that you would race any better with it.

Wait, are you serious?

Maybe because it's really difficult to detect? I heard the only way to detect it more than very few days later is a hair sample?

#33 desmo

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:37

I read that the only recreational drug drug testing works reliably for is cannabis. Most of the others you practically have to catch the testee in flagrante with. With cannabis if the testee was in the same room a month ago with people smoking, it is possible to test positive.

The secret to defeating testing for recreational drugs is to stick to the hard stuff- cocaine, heroin, meth, good; snowboarder parties, bad.

#34 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:53

Wait, are you serious?

Maybe because it's really difficult to detect? I heard the only way to detect it more than very few days later is a hair sample?


I thought he meant differentials.

#35 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 17:56

The secret to defeating testing for recreational drugs is to stick to the hard stuff- cocaine, heroin, meth, good; snowboarder parties, bad.

Go big or go home!

#36 Magoo

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 18:44

I read that the only recreational drug drug testing works reliably for is cannabis. Most of the others you practically have to catch the testee in flagrante with. With cannabis if the testee was in the same room a month ago with people smoking, it is possible to test positive.

The secret to defeating testing for recreational drugs is to stick to the hard stuff- cocaine, heroin, meth, good; snowboarder parties, bad.


You remind me of a funny tweet I read the other day: So, Mr. Ron Paul, you will legalize pot. Congratulations, you are president of our skate park.


#37 Fat Boy

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 16:34

I find it funny that LSD is perfectly fine.. Not that you would race any better with it.


Doc Ellis

#38 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 17:23

As Timothy Leary is supposed to have said, lose your mind and come to your senses.

#39 munks

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:08

Doc Ellis


I hadn't heard of that before, but the animated version is even better?

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#40 Magoo

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:13

The "doors of perception" thing never had much appeal for me. I am dubious of the theory that one can improve one's cognitive functions by disabling them. Seems... sketchy.

#41 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:26

I think it's the opposite extreme of 'overthinking things'. You get into the argument about intuitive/subconscious thinking. On the other hand one of Malcolm Gladwell's books(rolls eyes) about reactionary thinking was very popular on Wall Street...

#42 desmo

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:52

http://www.huffingto...b_b_227887.html

As I've long suspected, really really smart people are different from us. We dummies take acid and maybe see pretty colors or giggle a lot or get paranoid. But geniuses take psychedelic drugs and can use the altered state to look at problems in new ways, apparently even drawing significant new insights from the altered perspective. You probably don't want your tax accountant or the guy designing the highway overpass to work that way, but it may well be that we are all considerably better off because some creative right-brain types can harness this aid to unconventional thought. Imagine a world where all musicians were drug tested before their music could be published. Or writers. Or visual artists. Imagine the utter wasteland any such scheme would inevitably make of our popular culture.

I mean drugs (let's pretend this conventional usage of the term has some actual basis in logic for now OK?) are bad, right? The guy in the navy blue suit who has never created anything innovative or different in his life says so and he's been successful so I guess he must know what he's talking about. But maybe part of the reason he is so adamant is that he is on some level aware of his own intellectual and creative mediocrity- comfortable with it- and is actually afraid of a world where possibilities outside his conventional, competent, gray, barely three dimensional reality exists. Maybe the people who swam against the tide at Cisco and saw that the plans to drug test the high level creative staff were shelved were absolutely right to do so. Maybe the picture isn't so neat and simple as the crew cut navy blue suits and vacuous eyed Nancy Reagans would like you to believe. Maybe we've all been brainwashed to no good purpose but to protect the embedded interests of the mediocre. Maybe drug testing is the revenge of the dullards on the actual creative, smart folk.

I mean, stranger things have happened.

#43 MatsNorway

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 17:43

As I've long suspected, really really smart people are different from us. We dummies take acid and maybe see pretty colors or giggle a lot or get paranoid. But geniuses take psychedelic drugs and can use the altered state to look at problems in new ways, apparently even drawing significant new insights from the altered perspective.


I just finished most of this one.
http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

There is no definite yes/no answer. Its all about dose. See video below for a not so good dose. User doses of lsd are legal in many countries now btw.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

And even if the picher had gains its not like he was fully consentrating in a car for a hour.

Some people believe allmost blindly what they have been told by their leader(s). usually you will find them in a position where they take orders.

Edited by MatsNorway, 24 July 2012 - 17:45.


#44 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 17:46

http://www.huffingto...b_b_227887.html

Interesting. I went to school with Rick Doblin.

#45 Tony Matthews

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 18:58

... usually you will find them in a position where they take orders.

Married.

#46 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:46

His B sample failed and he's suspended indefinitely.

#47 Canuck

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 02:37

Maybe he can claim he was "poisoned".

#48 Fat Boy

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 05:05

Well, it looks like AJ is in the NASCAR "Road to Recovery" program. Ummmmm, huh? As far as I know, what he's accused of hasn't even been formally declared. How the hell do you recover from it? It's probably an office meeting with someone like my high school guidance counselor saying, "Don't take that stuff, OK?"

#49 Magoo

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:06

Well, it looks like AJ is in the NASCAR "Road to Recovery" program. Ummmmm, huh? As far as I know, what he's accused of hasn't even been formally declared. How the hell do you recover from it? It's probably an office meeting with someone like my high school guidance counselor saying, "Don't take that stuff, OK?"


As a matter of privacy NASCAR won't specify the banned substance unless it has to but AJ's camp says amphetamines. (So I believe it is Ritalin or Adderall or suchlike as I predicted.) Yes, from what I hear the NASCAR deal is a very conventional rehab program.

#50 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:36

If it's prescription how comoe they didn't fix that with NASCAR at the time? "Oh sorry, yeah I've got a doctor's note" and they have a procedural ban/rehab because they are technically in violation. And they can also say in public "Yeah, sorry, we didn't do it through the proper channels".

Because whether they're being honest or not, right now the line is "we don't know what we took that made us fail". So it's Ritalin/Adderall and AJ is taking his daily dose while saying "boy, I sure don't know what's causing this amphetamine positive"?