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#51 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 07:58

The drugs in sport thing is over the top. Athletes [or racers to a less degree] cannot take many normal medecines as they are illegal or could mask a true 'shonky' one.
Motorsport is not quite so bad, though maybe Nascar is too?
Though with all of this there is some very questionable athletes around at the moment. In a lot of sports.

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#52 munks

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 18:23

If it's prescription how comoe they didn't fix that with NASCAR at the time? "Oh sorry, yeah I've got a doctor's note" and they have a procedural ban/rehab because they are technically in violation. And they can also say in public "Yeah, sorry, we didn't do it through the proper channels".

Because whether they're being honest or not, right now the line is "we don't know what we took that made us fail". So it's Ritalin/Adderall and AJ is taking his daily dose while saying "boy, I sure don't know what's causing this amphetamine positive"?


According to AJ, it's Adderall taken once without a prescription:

http://espn.go.com/r...iption-adderall


#53 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 18:40

I reckon Penske sacked him for being a moron.

#54 Magoo

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 22:27

When Cindric said the other day that they didn't really understand the situation any better *after* talking to AJ, that was the tell. This is the heart-breaking part now, when you can't tell if the guy is lying or in denial or flat-out delusional. He's at the starting line of a strange and terrible journey.

I did call this part right: Adderall. I remember back years ago when he was in Atlantics and would chug two Red Bulls before a practice session. That's not right. A normal body should not be able to do that. That is a metabolism attempting to medicate itself. When something like Adderall becomes available, of course he will take it.

#55 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:22

When Cindric said the other day that they didn't really understand the situation any better *after* talking to AJ, that was the tell. This is the heart-breaking part now, when you can't tell if the guy is lying or in denial or flat-out delusional. He's at the starting line of a strange and terrible journey.

I did call this part right: Adderall. I remember back years ago when he was in Atlantics and would chug two Red Bulls before a practice session. That's not right. A normal body should not be able to do that. That is a metabolism attempting to medicate itself. When something like Adderall becomes available, of course he will take it.

This is where it gets so messy, a minute amount of a prescription drug is really hardly drug abuse. The rules should have a little more commonsense.
Red Bull addicts are far too common, especially among the 'sporting' fraternity.I have seen them so hyper and shaky that it is a worry.
Though for years I have found plain old coke [or these days lemon squash] is a good pick me up when I am at the track standing around for 2 days between a few minutes of driving. The sugar helps energy and concentration.
And in this I am far from alone.

#56 Fat Boy

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:28

When Cindric said the other day that they didn't really understand the situation any better *after* talking to AJ, that was the tell. This is the heart-breaking part now, when you can't tell if the guy is lying or in denial or flat-out delusional. He's at the starting line of a strange and terrible journey.

I did call this part right: Adderall. I remember back years ago when he was in Atlantics and would chug two Red Bulls before a practice session. That's not right. A normal body should not be able to do that. That is a metabolism attempting to medicate itself. When something like Adderall becomes available, of course he will take it.



As my grandmother would say, "Magoo wins the pewter button." (with the Adderall call). Honestly, 2 Red Bulls is his generation's version of a couple cups of coffee. We're talking 160mg of caffeine, which isn't a _huge_ deal. Mom's are driving their kids to school with a 16oz Starbuck's Latte that has a similar amount.

Having said this, I can't say I really buy his explanation. If he's actually telling the truth, then he has to be A. A freakin' idiot and B. The worst story teller of all time. Tara sucks at communications as well.

#57 packapoo

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:50

I reckon Penske sacked him for being a moron.


Reckon Ross called it pretty right. Guy obviously didn't value his drive too highly.

#58 Slowinfastout

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 06:10

It does sound hilariously dumb..

'My friend told me this pill was alright'..

The other thing is the pill in question being acceptable for school and kids but not for AJ in NASCAR, but I guess you gotta draw the line somewhere..

#59 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 09:32

Anyone participating in a sport with drug testing, need to take responsability for what they ingest. Any and all medicinal issues treated with medicine should be reported to the the authorities, who can then either confirm you can take the medicine or that you can not.

It is that simple.

:cool:

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#60 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 16:40

I got to Kentucky early for a few sponsor commitments and went to hang out with a buddy for a couple of days before we got going,” Allmendinger told FoxSports.com. “We were out early evening. I hadn’t been sleeping well — all season, really with the way things had been going, obviously, the expectations and everything like that. I was really tired, had no energy, nothing. We were out, he had a couple of his friends with him and I was struggling to even stay awake. One of his friends said, ‘Oh, I have an energy pill that I take for working out... I didn’t think anything of it because I’ve taken energy supplements for working out, that my trainer gives me. So I didn’t even think about it. That was my big mistake. It was nothing crazy. It just gave me a little more energy.


So it wasn't even a pill to workout, just in the normal course of the evening? Ay caramba.



#61 MattPete

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 02:47

I would have fired Allmendinger for his pure stupidity, on so many levels. Any scenario you can come up with makes him look like a numbskull.

#62 Magoo

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:33

Well, obviously AJ is not stupid. He's an intelligent young man, but unfortunately he is negotiating that whole maze of self-deception, denial, and delusion that enables substance abuse, and which is usually as difficult to overcome as the substance abuse itself.



#63 MatsNorway

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:35

Bad luck. Seen worse when people drink. I guess many have heard about mechanic apprentices punching their boss and so on.

Edited by MatsNorway, 09 August 2012 - 11:36.


#64 BRG

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 19:17

This is where it gets so messy, a minute amount of a prescription drug is really hardly drug abuse. The rules should have a little more commonsense.

That's a slippery slope that you're standing at the top of. How minute an amount is OK? 50mg? 100mg? 500mg? Just a little bit of EPO, just a few steroids?

There is a reason why the limit is zero.

#65 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:01

That's a slippery slope that you're standing at the top of. How minute an amount is OK? 50mg? 100mg? 500mg? Just a little bit of EPO, just a few steroids?

There is a reason why the limit is zero.

I am not condoning it, just that a prescription medecine is hardly a performance enhancing or effecting a race driver.
The last couple of years I raced the rubbish I had to go through to take a normal anti inflamatory for arthritis. Anybody would have thought I was on crack or something instead of a mainstream medicinal drug.For a common prescribed long term illness. Just another straw that broke the camels back.

Steroid drugs are often prescribed. And are banned by sporting authoritys carte blanch. Understandably for 'athletes, but a lot of sports are not a strength or stamina test and they are still banned.

#66 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:27

But very few aren't, and it's better to just ban things across the board. Because there's no compelling reason to allow them.

In Allmendinger's case he wasn't even on prescription. So not only did he break NAsCAR law he technically broke actual law.

#67 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 14:32

I am not condoning it, just that a prescription medecine is hardly a performance enhancing or effecting a race driver.
The last couple of years I raced the rubbish I had to go through to take a normal anti inflamatory for arthritis. Anybody would have thought I was on crack or something instead of a mainstream medicinal drug.For a common prescribed long term illness. Just another straw that broke the camels back.

Steroid drugs are often prescribed. And are banned by sporting authoritys carte blanch. Understandably for 'athletes, but a lot of sports are not a strength or stamina test and they are still banned.

From what I understand most sports allow what's called a TUE (Therapeutic Use Exemption). Lance Armstrong is missing one or both testicles so he takes testosterone replacement therapy. Most riders in the TdF peloton are diagnosed with athsma and take albuterol or something similar. There is an MMA fighter who also supplements his testosterone.

Steven Wallace took Adderall for ADHD and it was allowed.

All of the examples above are for substances which are almost without question performance enhancing in those respective sports.

As long as you check in ahead of time, have a doctor's note, fill out the appropriate forms, and pass the medical scrutiny, you can take pretty much whatever you want.

#68 Slowinfastout

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 15:21

From what I understand most sports allow what's called a TUE (Therapeutic Use Exemption). Lance Armstrong is missing one or both testicles so he takes testosterone replacement therapy. Most riders in the TdF peloton are diagnosed with athsma and take albuterol or something similar. There is an MMA fighter who also supplements his testosterone.

Steven Wallace took Adderall for ADHD and it was allowed.

All of the examples above are for substances which are almost without question performance enhancing in those respective sports.

As long as you check in ahead of time, have a doctor's note, fill out the appropriate forms, and pass the medical scrutiny, you can take pretty much whatever you want.


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#69 Fat Boy

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 18:02

From what I understand most sports allow what's called a TUE (Therapeutic Use Exemption). Lance Armstrong is missing one or both testicles so he takes testosterone replacement therapy. Most riders in the TdF peloton are diagnosed with athsma and take albuterol or something similar. There is an MMA fighter who also supplements his testosterone.

Steven Wallace took Adderall for ADHD and it was allowed.

All of the examples above are for substances which are almost without question performance enhancing in those respective sports.

As long as you check in ahead of time, have a doctor's note, fill out the appropriate forms, and pass the medical scrutiny, you can take pretty much whatever you want.


Correct on the TUE. There are things that are allowed. LA has one testicle. He was not allowed any hormone replacements ever. There are many things that you cannot get a TUE for, like an asthma inhaler, but anything that is seriously performance enhancing (steroids, hormones, Epo, etc.) are not allowed under any conditions.

As far as an MMA fighter supplementing testosterone, my guess is that they all do it. They nearly all look as if they do, anyway. It wouldn't be allowed under any reasonable drug testing protocol, but their drug testing is absurd. Cycling catches people because they try. Most other professional sports don't catch people because they don't try. The head of the Nevada State Boxing Commission is on record saying Epogen (a red blood cell booster) wouldn't help a boxer, so they don't test for it. Are you freakin' kidding me?

USADA and WADA run a pretty strict program. You absolutely cannot take whatever you want, regardless of notes from doctors, mom or God. You can go to any normal GNC or supplement shop and buy all sorts of stuff that will get you a 2 year vacation from competition. I don't know what protocol NASCAR uses (from what I can find it's not published; neither in Indycar's), but it probably just checks the easy stuff (which is cheap and relatively effective, especially for recreational drugs).

I've worked with one driver in particular in sportscar racing who is relatively well known that I would guarantee is on testosterone and/or steroids. He's a good driver (albeit a head-case), but I'll be damned if I know why he thinks it's an advantage to carry around an extra 20 pounds of muscle. He also gets so jacked up on caffeine prior to a race he's insufferable. I guess that's meant to be some sort of an advantage as well. It's actually a little humorous when he takes all his crap and then the co-driver crashes the car. Then he gets to walk around for the next couple hours acting like he's done a bunch of blow. Good times.

#70 Slowinfastout

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 18:24

Must be a personal preference thing, I've done some racing myself in the '90s (snocross) and the last thing I would do is getting jacked up on caffeine. I feel like sh*t with too much coffee or energy drinks, and when the adrenalin starts flowing it's only worse.

I'm not expert on the performance enhancing effects of various drugs, but I know for a fact I've competed against successful cokeheads and also potheads, so you've got the full spectrum there..

Oh and steroids definitely sounds to me like something that would be detrimental to a racing driver.. the additional muscle mass is pointless but also you don't need to hang around a gym for too long to see a 'roid rage' episode. The effects are completely incompatible with racing IMO.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 10 August 2012 - 18:33.


#71 desmo

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 23:17

If the drivers, somewhat illogically, have to be subjected to testing for non-PEDs as some sort of morals puffery, then why shouldn't the team owners and everyone else associated with racing be as well? I'd really like to see the Wall Streeters tested as well.

http://auto-racing.s...penske-arrested

#72 Fat Boy

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 23:42

We are. I've personally been drug tested at the racetrack. It's completely unannounced and random. The only part that bugs me is that I have no idea what the testing protocol is. They've never released it. It's nice to go into one of those with a clean conscience, though, I can tell you that.

#73 MatsNorway

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 09:27

i assume you have signed papers on it being ok to be testet then.

#74 Greg Locock

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 23:50

i assume you have signed papers on it being ok to be testet then.

I thought most workplaces these days that was a condition of employment? Certainly is in Aus, in manufacturing and mining and the like.

#75 MatsNorway

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:32

It might be but it does not mean the workplace can test you when they feel like. Actually i would deny any test from anyone but the police.

Edited by MatsNorway, 13 August 2012 - 08:34.


#76 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:15

It wouldn't be a problem because you wouldn't be hired.

I understand what you're saying in principle but in these kinds of environments it's not unreasonable to expect multiple and random drug tests.

#77 Catalina Park

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:33

The company I work for has random drug tests. One of the drivers got sent home last week for having codeine in his system. He was taking cold and flu tablets because he had the flu.
The drug testers turn up unannounced in a Winnebago and all the workers on that site have to take a test. There is no getting around it.

I don't mind the drug tests but I would be a lot happier if only they could bring in dickhead testing.

#78 Tony Matthews

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:52

... dickhead testing.

:)

#79 John Brundage

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 12:46

Where I work, we are subject to pre-employment, post accident or incedent, probable cause, and random testing. The company clinic must be notified of all medications prior to showing up for work with them in your system. Common things that I cannot take are allergy meds. If the label says it can make you drowsey, you can't take them. And no, my function is not to operate machinery or operate a company vehicle.

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#80 Fat Boy

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 16:37

i assume you have signed papers on it being ok to be testet then.


Anyone with a hard card has.

#81 Fat Boy

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 16:37

It might be but it does not mean the workplace can test you when they feel like. Actually i would deny any test from anyone but the police.


Then don't expect to work.

#82 MatsNorway

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 17:25

I know little to nothing about drug rules. My workplace got zero tolerance. But no freedom to "harass" employees there.

I know about a engineer or two and a leader that would get a bit sweaty if that was the norm.

Interesting to note the tone on some of the posts. i take my work seriously, no drinking in working hours. I have had a beer and so on with factory representatives during after hours but i think i will stop doing it when im getting paid for being abroad.

Edited by MatsNorway, 13 August 2012 - 17:40.


#83 Canuck

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 18:41

Canadian law is pretty employee-sided when it comes to testing. Our megacorp is only permitted to test if there's an incident and even if you fail at that point, they have to send you to rehab.

The notion that "prescription drugs aren't performance-enhancing" is a bit of a laugh. What do you think is meant by performance enhancing? More muscle? More power? More cardiovascular capacity? What about greater tolerance for training? Hormone level adjustment? Nutrient absorption? People tend to imagine the stereotype when you talk about drugs in sports - the gym rats, the over-stuffed night-club bouncers, Belarusian shot putters - but they miss the rest. It's like missing the M5 as a performance (street) car because it lacks a wing on the trunk. Besides which, "gym" steroids are available as prescription medicines - I have a friend on "testosterone replacement therapy". He's 5'7" and pushing a lean (I didn't say healthy) 200 pounds - a nice side-effect of the doctor-prescribed therapy. I think it's hypocritical that we can surgically implant silicone to - ostensibly - look good, but you can't legally do the same thing - combined with hard work in the gym and the kitchen - by supplementing the hormones already produced by the body. It's all the same sick self-esteem issue at the end of the day.

With respect to AJ - if he's clinically ADHD or ADD, then taking Adderol will actually bring him back down from a naturally over-hyped state. I'm still opposed to medicating everyone for every issued - real and imagined (or fabricated by big pharma) but whatever. The use of steroids or rather PEDs in sports is always going to be an issue as long as millions of dollars are on the table for the winning. Look at how hard Armstrong is fighting to overturn this USADA investigation - he's petitioning the courts, had Trek (his bicycle sponsor) approach their Congressional rep and brought the UCI on-side. Meanwhile the USADA is like the Terminator, swatting away meaningless obstacles and coming after him relentlessly. I think he's guilty as sin - you don't dominate an entire group of elite athletes for 7 years when half (or more) of them are doping too. Never mind his power output per kilo of mass being beyond the realm of human physiology. He's either an alien or a lying cheater with huge financial risk if he's exposed.

Check out the Der Spiegel interview with "the chemist". http://www.sherdog.n...doping-1927491/ (German version here: http://www.spiegel.d.../a-571031.html) and http://www.musclewee...roids?wpmp_tp=1

Somewhere long ago I read an interview with - I think - a Canadian Olympic coach talking about doping at the games. The take-away was that all of the "star" events were dominated by users and that the difference between getting caught and getting away with it was down to the sophistication of the drug program. It ties in nicely with Heredia's interview but I'll be damned if I can find it.


#84 GreenMachine

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 22:38

Anyone with a hard card has.


"hard card"??

#85 GreenMachine

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 22:39

Anyone with a hard card has.


"hard card"??

#86 Slowinfastout

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 22:48

Member of a professional order, I think it means.

It's definitely country-specific. I'm Canadian too and here in most fields it's not something you need to worry much about once you got the job.

I've had different medical tests for jobs, actually been tested for drugs only twice I think, before being hired, and never while I was actually working.

I'm sure some jobs/employers are quite strict though, truck drivers are thoroughly checked but doctors are on coke all the time :lol:

Edited by Slowinfastout, 13 August 2012 - 22:50.


#87 desmo

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 23:10

In the private sector most employers would probably love their employees taking anything that actually enhanced on job performance. In some places in law enforcement and private security, where an imposing physical presence is considered a job asset, it's obvious most employees are heavily juiced. I guess the resulting psychopathic and negative health side effects are considered a fair trade off.

#88 Tony Matthews

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 23:25

... doctors are on coke all the time :lol:

If you query it, they shrug it off, saying it's aspirin. But we know...

#89 Magoo

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:14

"hard card"??


Season credential issued to the individual by the sanctioning body. Race team member, safety, medical, media, etc.

#90 Fat Boy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:21

Canuck...+1. You especially hit the nail on the head in terms of training tolerance. Recovery is the biggest issue for most athletes. It's not that they don't want to go train more, it's that they physically can't. The drugs help you bounce back from hard workouts (and injuries) much quicker. It's not that they make you that much stronger on their own, they just allow you to do more of what you're already doing. The guys that get huge are getting that way as a product of the workouts they do and their diets. The drugs themselves don't just heap on big muscles. It's a combination of everything.

LA has crazy dogged determination. He really is a bit of a freak. Having said that, during his professional career (not the recent 'comeback'), he was doped to the gills. No question. The USADA deal is politically motivated more than anything else. Honestly, how many athletes could they charge with doping in the '90's and early 2000's? Ummmm, let's see...baseball, football, basketball, hockey, track and field, etc. You could round up 1000 professional athletes without any problem at all.

#91 Canuck

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 05:36

In the book LA Confidential, one of Lance's teammate suggests they were all doping like fiends but ends with the belief that on any level field, Lance would have still been champion.

I think they picked him because they have a pile of evidence in front of them, because the UCI is complicit and despite all of the questionable associations, busted teammates, busted "doctors" etc etc, nobody was doing anything about it. Hell, the UCI rejected Landis' claims outright without any investigation and then sued him for coming forward.

#92 MatsNorway

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:48

Canadian law is pretty employee-sided when it comes to testing. Our megacorp is only permitted to test if there's an incident and even if you fail at that point, they have to send you to rehab.


Pretty much what we got here.

If they got blod from that era and newer equipement LA is going down.

Edited by MatsNorway, 14 August 2012 - 10:50.


#93 Fat Boy

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 15:46

In the book LA Confidential, one of Lance's teammate suggests they were all doping like fiends but ends with the belief that on any level field, Lance would have still been champion.


I think that's pretty accurate.

#94 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 16:02

That was an important bit of the Heredia interview. You can't take a slob and a few syringes and hope to make the Olympics. Like all cheating you still have to have everything else going right. But that last little bit? The needle might have determined the result of the anchor leg of the 4x100 last weekend.

But I don't know what they can really do about it. Policing it adequately seems impossible, though Conte has some ideas. Have at it boys won't work. And the current system of thresholds waaaaaay above what a human would be doing, even in elite examples, is the worst of both worlds

The solution is probably just to enjoy the performance and try to tune out the people crowing about the beauty and purity of sport. Though if you think we're a corrupt industry, wait unil you interact with the rest of the world.


#95 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 16:25

1 strike and you are out forever would surely stop a lot of it.

:cool:

#96 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 16:54

Would it? The issue seems to be people doping and never getting caught. Though I'm in favour of lifetime bans. If you want a 'second chance' it's called getting job like the rest of us.

#97 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 18:01

I remember reading an article where a bunch of Olympians were told of a hypothetical drug that had a 50% mortality rate but the ones who survived increased their performance to a level which guaranteed a gold medal in their chosen sport.

Something like 90% said they'd take it.

#98 4mula1

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 18:26

Canuck...+1. You especially hit the nail on the head in terms of training tolerance. Recovery is the biggest issue for most athletes. It's not that they don't want to go train more, it's that they physically can't. The drugs help you bounce back from hard workouts (and injuries) much quicker. It's not that they make you that much stronger on their own, they just allow you to do more of what you're already doing. The guys that get huge are getting that way as a product of the workouts they do and their diets. The drugs themselves don't just heap on big muscles. It's a combination of everything.


Just read a great article on an amateur cyclist who got busted for doping. What it really came down to was minimizing recovery time.

http://velonews.comp...-and-hgh_232611

#99 BRG

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:05

LA has crazy dogged determination. He really is a bit of a freak. Having said that, during his professional career (not the recent 'comeback'), he was doped to the gills. No question.

No question? Armstrong was one of the mos tested riders in the sport. The French were desperate to catch him out and stop the wretched yanqui dominating their Tour. HE NEVER tested positive for anything - unlike Landis, Ulrich, Virenque, Millar, Rasmussen, Pantani, Contador and many, many more. How did he manage it?

The current campaign against him stinks of a kangaroo trial where they are intent on crucifying him on the anecdotal 'evidence' of other riders who totally failed to speak out about things at the time - perhaps because there was nothing to say.

Edited by BRG, 14 August 2012 - 20:06.


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#100 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
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  • 57,881 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 14 August 2012 - 20:49

Didn't Marion Jones pass like 150+ before she got busted?