48 replies to this topic

[flyer121]

How do you guys rate the respective comebacks of Schumi and Kimi? Which one made you feel WOW -we should have more of that.

We cant separate fans and non fans but it would be great to keep a non-biased view on this. Ultimately I m aware that it will boil down to who has more fans (thats good info too:)) but would be interesting in getting views of the neutrals ...

Also - please keep in mind respective situations in mind when voting / posting - Not just podiums or points.
respective cars and their handling & teammate benchmarking are of course a valid factor but respective circumstance like age / # of years out before comeback / activity when out of F1 etc are valid as well.


As for me - I like Kimi very much but I am a bit underwhelmed and I expected more (maybe because I consider him the fastest when things go his way)
Schumi - I started enjoying his passion for the sport but again expected more from him.

All in all - both leave a little to be desired but as far as comebacks go - I would say Kimi s is better but not by a long way.

Maybe slightly controversial and even be outside the rules (Sorry mods - you are free to close the topic if you think it is - I couldnt find any explicit rule)
But with one more week to go to see the cars , thought it would be a good discussion.

Edited by flyer121, 13 July 2012 - 11:13.

[Gareth]

How are we rating things? By how they've performed or by how we would have expected them to have performed given their ages?

On the former, I'd give it to Kimi as I think he's performed better overall than Schumacher. On the latter, I think Schumacher's return has been more impressive (performing at the level of a decent F1 driver at his age in modern F1 is pretty impressive, IMO).

[Disgrace]

It would not be fair to compare Schumachers two and a half years back to Kimis half a year.

[korzeniow]

I don't think it's easy to compare those two comebacks. Each case you have to consider diffrently.

Kimi is equipped with arguably best car on the grid (works well on all types of tracks and in any kind of temperature, it's easy to drive and easy to set up, it's fast of straights which makes it easier when it comes to overtaking). Now you look what Kimi achieved since his comeback and you compare it to Schumacher's achievements and you can easly conclude that Kimi did better. But when you think more about it. Did Kimi extract maximum from the machinery he was provided? I think not. No schame in that, since he has yet a second half of the season to shine.

Bottom line is, I would wait with comparing comeback untill Kimi finishes at least one season.

[velgajski1]

It would not be fair to compare Schumachers two and a half years back to Kimis half a year.

Also, it should be noted that Kimi is still fairly young, actually, in his years he should be at his best. On the other hand MS is way past his prime.

[korzeniow]

Also, it should be noted that Kimi is still fairly young, actually, in his years he should be at his best. On the other hand MS is way past his prime.

So why did he bother to come back anyway? I don't think this excuse is justyfied.

[velgajski1]

So why did he bother to come back anyway? I don't think this excuse is justyfied.

Ermm, maybe because he loves F1? Maybe because he still believes he can win some races? If you honestly believe that a person of 43 y/o can be in same physical and mental condition as in his late 20's or early 30's, you are seriously deluding yourself.

[Diablobb81]

Another option : not comparable.

[Schumacher7]

So why did he bother to come back anyway? I don't think this excuse is justyfied.

Because he thinks that even past his prime he can still challenge other drivers when they're at their peak.

[flyer121]

How are we rating things? By how they've performed or by how we would have expected them to have performed given their ages?

On the former, I'd give it to Kimi as I think he's performed better overall than Schumacher. On the latter, I think Schumacher's return has been more impressive (performing at the level of a decent F1 driver at his age in modern F1 is pretty impressive, IMO).

Good question , although I feel when ever we rate anything , we have expectations already in play.

Like when i see an average movie from Martin Scorcese , I rate is a bit lower than if I happen to see a run of the mill comedy which turns out great. I would recommend the latter to others ...

All things considered - which comeback made you go WOW ? if both then which one more ? if neither did then which left you less underwhelmed ?

[flyer121]

Another option : not comparable.

Not many votes in - so I will add that

[korzeniow]

Ermm, maybe because he loves F1? Maybe because he still believes he can win some races? If you honestly believe that a person of 43 y/o can be in same physical and mental condition as in his late 20's or early 30's, you are seriously deluding yourself.

Oh come one. He came back for another WDC title, tempted by Mr Brawn's and some Mercedes' chief promises of wins. I remember him claiming that he gives himself three years to achieve this goal.

Now he and his team failed to do so and suddenly people want to cover this up by patronising him over his age.

And I never said that age isn't any factor.

[as65p]

Initially I was very impressed by KR's comeback, but now it's about time he does the last (and most difficult) step, from competent frontrunner to absolute cream of the crop.

[Pits]

It's very hard to compare both comebacks to be hounest.
Total different circumstances and different cars, analyzing this will tell you nothing.

[Les]

I went for Kimi slightly as Schumacher has been putting in some decent performances this year when the car hasn't been breaking down. However it should really be /not comparable' due to the difference in age and the fact that Schumacher has been back for a lot longer than Kimi. Both have potential to sneak a win in the right circumstances though, although its going to be harder now that Ferrari and Red Bull are getting a grip on the championship.

[KavB]

Raikkonen, no contest. He was immediately back on the pace, whereas it took Schumi a couple seasons to get back into it. Of course Schumacher is older and was away from F1 longer than Kimi so his comeback is still impressive. But Raikkonen fought for victory in only his fourth race back and was in the hunt in his 5th so it has to be Kimi.

[Owen]

Raikkonen, no contest. He was immediately back on the pace, whereas it took Schumi a couple seasons to get back into it. Of course Schumacher is older and was away from F1 longer than Kimi so his comeback is still impressive. But Raikkonen fought for victory in only his fourth race back and was in the hunt in his 5th so it has to be Kimi.

^ that

[1Devil1]

Raikkonen, no contest. He was immediately back on the pace, whereas it took Schumi a couple seasons to get back into it. Of course Schumacher is older and was away from F1 longer than Kimi so his comeback is still impressive. But Raikkonen fought for victory in only his fourth race back and was in the hunt in his 5th so it has to be Kimi.

Raikkonen has the car to fight for victories. Some people believe the lotus car is the best car out there .Like Schumacher he has troubles to beat his own team mate in his first season. I would say Raikkonnen is doing a better job than Michael 2010 but his better results can be the answer. The mercedes 2010 was a podium contender occasionally when rbr, ferrari or McLaren made a mistake. To say raikkonen is doing better because he has the better results is too simple.

Edited by 1Devil1, 13 July 2012 - 11:37.

[One]

Well they are fihting or the different goal aren't they? Kimi so far scored more points and stood on more podiums. For this reason alone I voted that Kimi by far ... But wen you look at how team as a whole moved forward, I could give more credit to Michael. Mercedes is quietly moving forward, especially with small budget which were previosly reported (, if this were still true...).

[KavB]

Raikkonen has the car to fight for victories. Some people believe the lotus car is the best car out there .Like Schumacher he has troubles to beat his own team mate in his first season. I would say Raikkonnen is doing a better job than Michael 2010 but his better results can be the answer. The mercedes 2010 was a podium contender occasionally when rbr, ferrari or McLaren made a mistake. To say raikkonen is doing better because he has the better results is too simple.

Michael was only able to fight for a podium once (I think) last year, his team mate was able to get on the podium three times in 2010. I know their achievements carry different weight relative to each other but on the whole Kimi has achieved more for what his equipment can do.

I would say Schumacher has a car this year which is able to produce the goods but that's unfair because he hasn't been able to show what he can do.

[Zava]

Raikkonen has the car to fight for victories. Some people believe the lotus car is the best car out there .Like Schumacher he has troubles to beat his own team mate in his first season. I would say Raikkonnen is doing a better job than Michael 2010 but his better results can be the answer. The mercedes 2010 was a podium contender occasionally when rbr, ferrari or McLaren made a mistake. To say raikkonen is doing better because he has the better results is too simple.

at this point in his return year, Schumacher was about 40 points off Rosberg (and finished with 70 points off) and most of the time Rosberg had the upper hand on him. hardly the case of Kimi...

about the poll: too easy although you could've added a poll like this:
"I'm a:
-Kimi fan
-Schumi fan
-fan of both
-neutral " maybe add Kimi hater/Schumi hater just for the lolz this could give a clearer picture, for example: tied on fans, but one of them is voted better, or one of them higher on fans, but equal on the return... could put things in perspective.

[Group B]

How are we rating things? By how they've performed or by how we would have expected them to have performed given their ages?

On the former, I'd give it to Kimi as I think he's performed better overall than Schumacher. On the latter, I think Schumacher's return has been more impressive (performing at the level of a decent F1 driver at his age in modern F1 is pretty impressive, IMO).

KR has probably been slightly better, but you're comparing chalk and cheese so the poll results are hardly going to be a fair reflection.

[mmmcm]

Basically, neither has been particularly impressive, for variety of more or less justified reasons.

Case for Schumi: he was away for full 3 years and came back in his 40s. No driver has been condistently competitive in his age ever since 1950s (with some exceptions like Brabham or Mansell who by 41 was hopelessly outclassed). Yet Schumi is still here, capable of poles and podiums in a car that is not the class of the field. Schumi is still amongst the world's best 10 drivers and at 43 that's amazing!

Case for Kimi: he's been there for 9 races only so far and managed some solid results and podiums. His teammate is young and wild and the matureness of Kimi's careful approach is manifested in the points' score. He still have enough time to adjust and improve.

Considering that there's a 10(!) year gap between their respective ages and that Schumi's hiatus was longer and farther away from competitive driving, I would say that their comebacks are comparably successfull.

[flyer121]

at this point in his return year, Schumacher was about 40 points off Rosberg (and finished with 70 points off) and most of the time Rosberg had the upper hand on him. hardly the case of Kimi...

about the poll: too easy although you could've added a poll like this:
"I'm a:
-Kimi fan
-Schumi fan
-fan of both
-neutral " maybe add Kimi hater/Schumi hater just for the lolz this could give a clearer picture, for example: tied on fans, but one of them is voted better, or one of them higher on fans, but equal on the return... could put things in perspective.

I know ... but I think Kimi and SChumi are both pretty equal in terms of fan worship so I think we will be ok and the rabid fanboys will cancel each other out

[schubacca]

Looking at the Renault....


and


Looking at the Mercedes car....

Non-comparable IMHO

[karlth]

Both have been disappointing.

[Wander]

Looking at the Renault....


and


Looking at the Mercedes car....

Non-comparable IMHO

Yeah! Mercedes is already a race winner and the "Renault" isn't.

[ivand911]

Yeah! Mercedes is already a race winner and the "Renault" isn't.

Race winner? This year? You take this serious? Williams is also race winner. Standing in WCC - 3rd to 5th. Points 144 to 98.
I have feeling that MS will want to race with E20 ,but I am not sure Kimi will want to race with W03.

Edited by ivand911, 13 July 2012 - 15:48.

[Starlight]

I would say that kimi should be given a whole season before this sort of a comparison is done. Having said that, while it's difficult to compare them directly due to differences in car performances, age, etc, comparisons with their team mates can show their relative performances. While kimi is doing well, MS took a while to get up to speed, although again this boils down to the relative experiences of RG and NR. It's a tough comparison but I will say that IMO kimi edges it's slightly.

[ivand911]

Raikkonen, no contest. He was immediately back on the pace, whereas it took Schumi a couple seasons to get back into it. Of course Schumacher is older and was away from F1 longer than Kimi so his comeback is still impressive. But Raikkonen fought for victory in only his fourth race back and was in the hunt in his 5th so it has to be Kimi.

BS. Give proof please. Check first Q(respectively) and tell me who was up to speed quickly.
Kimi(18) - more than 2 sec of RG(3rd). Australia 2012.
MS(7th) - 0,3 from Nico(5th) in Bahrain 2010.
Check end result too.
I guess nobody see the difference between W01 and E20. Nobody will say good word for W01. All praise E20. But, I guess this have nothing to do with it.

Good car helping comeback - Raikkonen
http://en.espnf1.com...tory/74920.html
"It's just about whether you have a good car or not," Raikkonen told Sport Bild. "It has made life much easier for me. He (Schumacher) was not so lucky. The (Lotus) car is good. Whether it's good enough for victory or not, I don't know. At least we are not far away from the top."

Kimi is not helping much his fans ,that make flattering polls.

Edited by ivand911, 13 July 2012 - 16:10.

[1Devil1]

Race winner? This year? You take this serious? Williams is also race winner. Standing in WCC - 3rd to 5th. Points 144 to 98.
I have feeling that MS will want to race with E20 ,but I am not sure Kimi will want to race with W03.

Don't take this seriously. Lotus is the better car this year but the team and the drivers failed to take the first win. And in comparison with the mercedes 2010 and 2011 this car is a rocket. Nico win says nothing about the relative car performance

[beute]

BS. Give proof please. Check first Q(respectively) and tell me who was up to speed quickly.
Kimi(18) - more than 2 sec of RG(3rd). Australia 2012.
MS(7th) - 0,3 from Nico(5th) in Bahrain 2010.
Check end result too.
I guess nobody see the difference between W01 and E20. Nobody will say good word for W01. All praise E20. But, I guess this have nothing to do with it.

Good car helping comeback - Raikkonen
http://en.espnf1.com...tory/74920.html
"It's just about whether you have a good car or not," Raikkonen told Sport Bild. "It has made life much easier for me. He (Schumacher) was not so lucky. The (Lotus) car is good. Whether it's good enough for victory or not, I don't know. At least we are not far away from the top."

Kimi is not helping much his fans ,that make flattering polls.

and there goes all the credibility you had left, which wasnt much to begin with.
Both Raikkonen and grosjeans first lap were almost identical, the difference in the end was that grosjean got a second lap together while kimi did not.
he aborted his last/second lap because of an error cause he thought he still has time for another try.


If you seriously think you can judge the speed difference of the two drivers on that day by comparing Grosjeans Q3 time to Raikkonens only flying lap of Q1, then you're ********.
You can blame him for his mistake at his second try, you can do that, but claiming he was 2 seconds a lap slower than grosjean? how low are you willing to sink in order to defend your champion?

[Spillage]

Kimi has been the more impressive of the two; but then, he was 9 years younger at the time of his comeback, and he spent his wilderness years rallyingat the highest level, as opposed to Schumi who spent it doing nothing.

To be honest, though, neither has impressed me to the extent that I think they were right to come back. Could all change when they start winning, though..

[KavB]

BS. Give proof please. Check first Q(respectively) and tell me who was up to speed quickly.
Kimi(18) - more than 2 sec of RG(3rd). Australia 2012.
MS(7th) - 0,3 from Nico(5th) in Bahrain 2010.
Check end result too.
I guess nobody see the difference between W01 and E20. Nobody will say good word for W01. All praise E20. But, I guess this have nothing to do with it.

Good car helping comeback - Raikkonen
http://en.espnf1.com...tory/74920.html
"It's just about whether you have a good car or not," Raikkonen told Sport Bild. "It has made life much easier for me. He (Schumacher) was not so lucky. The (Lotus) car is good. Whether it's good enough for victory or not, I don't know. At least we are not far away from the top."

Kimi is not helping much his fans ,that make flattering polls.

Schumacher was dominated by Rosberg in 2010 and wasn't able to extract anywhere near the maximum of the Merc. Last year he was much closer in races, but was lacking in qualifying. This year he is performing as good as Nico, if not better. It can be argued Raikkonen isn't extracting the maximum of the Lotus, but he is certainly closer to its limit than Michael was in 2010.

Australia was obviously a blip. You could have made a better case in any other race where he was outqualified.

[ivand911]

and there goes all the credibility you had left, which wasnt much to begin with.
Both Raikkonen and grosjeans first lap were almost identical, the difference in the end was that grosjean got a second lap together while kimi did not.
he aborted his last/second lap because of an error cause he thought he still has time for another try.


If you seriously think you can judge the speed difference of the two drivers on that day by comparing Grosjeans Q3 time to Raikkonens only flying lap of Q1, then you're ********.
You can blame him for his mistake at his second try, you can do that, but claiming he was 2 seconds a lap slower than grosjean? how low are you willing to sink in order to defend your champion?

Excuses.

[ivand911]

Schumacher was dominated by Rosberg in 2010 and wasn't able to extract anywhere near the maximum of the Merc. Last year he was much closer in races, but was lacking in qualifying. This year he is performing as good as Nico, if not better. It can be argued Raikkonen isn't extracting the maximum of the Lotus, but he is certainly closer to its limit than Michael was in 2010.

Australia was obviously a blip. You could have made a better case in any other race where he was outqualified.

How you see the difference? 2010 and 2012? The point difference is almost the same? But you have different opinion for both years? MS lost points in Australia 2010(hit by Alonso/Button in 4th place), in Malaysia 2010(tyre). Lost 25 points there. Better in Spain, leading Nico in Monaco(points taken). 2 crashes in next 2 races(Turkey,Canada(ahead of Nico)). Europe(pit lane red light, ahead of Nico). All this seems to me like to much bad luck, like this year. UK next crash, ahead of Nico again. So, where he was exactly dominated?
To many blips as you say???

[MSchumi]

Totally different situations, hence uncomparable.
Schumacher had been away much longer, came back after the cars had changed a lot and got a much worse W01 under him in comparison to the current E20 driven by Räikkönen.
Besides, Schumacher dedication for the sport is unmatchable.

[itsademo]

Ermm, maybe because he loves F1? Maybe because he still believes he can win some races? If you honestly believe that a person of 43 y/o can be in same physical and mental condition as in his late 20's or early 30's, you are seriously deluding yourself.

and if you dont think someone who is 43 years old can have more experience and wisddom than a younger gun you are liying to yourself just as much.
Dont delude yourself both young and old have advantages and weaknesses neither is perfect yet neither is failtally floored as you want to use as an excuse

[velgajski1]

and if you dont think someone who is 43 years old can have more experience and wisddom than a younger gun you are liying to yourself just as much.
Dont delude yourself both young and old have advantages and weaknesses neither is perfect yet neither is failtally floored as you want to use as an excuse

I really wonder what kind of 'excuse' I am making and for who? People here (two so far) are mentioning me making 'excuses'. I have really no reason to make 'excuses' because I never claimed that Schumacher would be good after comeback, nor am I his fan. I am just making objective observations. Not sure what bugs couple of you people about this.

Both comebacks are/were somewhere in the line of my expectations, Kimi does good, but not as good as in his best days (though probably better than in 2008). Schumacher does much worse than at his best days, but that is also to be expected because he is simply old. We're not in 60s anymore.

For people still not convinced, a bit of mathematical excersise - what's the average age of F1 WDC (in a moment when title was won) in last 10 seasons?

Edited by velgajski1, 13 July 2012 - 21:04.

[Zava]

Excuses.

OK, we can play like that. even before half time, Kimi already has more points this year than MS had in any of his return years. anything you might want to reply to this are just excuses, I can tell it in advance.

[ivand911]

OK, we can play like that. even before half time, Kimi already has more points this year than MS had in any of his return years. anything you might want to reply to this are just excuses, I can tell it in advance.

I don't need excuses. Kimi himself give the best explanation. But, his fans are still not happy. The best thing is to have them in the same car.

For me is more interesting, if Kimi return in 2010 in W01(understeery, short WB, weak front Bridgestones, maybe the worst car he is driven) , drive W02 and W03. Will he do better? I doubt he will beat Nico in 2010.
And Michael 43 year old driving E20(after 2 active F1 years), how he will fare?

We're not in 60s anymore.

Agree.

Edited by ivand911, 14 July 2012 - 09:08.

[Jimisgod]

Kimi has two podiums, while Schumacher has one and with the advantage of two extra years.

[artista]

Kimi has two podiums, while Schumacher has one and with the advantage of two extra years.

Three podiums: Bahrain, Barcelona and Valencia

Sorry, I love to be annoying every now and then

[Zava]

Kimi has two podiums, while Schumacher has one and with the advantage of two extra years.

he actually has 3, altho' the valencia one was down to luck.
the second part applies to Schumacher as well.

damn you artista.

Edited by Zava, 14 July 2012 - 12:37.

[ali_M]

I really wonder what kind of 'excuse' I am making and for who? People here (two so far) are mentioning me making 'excuses'. I have really no reason to make 'excuses' because I never claimed that Schumacher would be good after comeback, nor am I his fan. I am just making objective observations. Not sure what bugs couple of you people about this.

Both comebacks are/were somewhere in the line of my expectations, Kimi does good, but not as good as in his best days (though probably better than in 2008). Schumacher does much worse than at his best days, but that is also to be expected because he is simply old. We're not in 60s anymore.

For people still not convinced, a bit of mathematical excersise - what's the average age of F1 WDC (in a moment when title was won) in last 10 seasons?

What bugs me when I read this is that you're actually not making simple objective observations. You are actually making subjective claims on objective data, rolling it all into one, and then claiming it to be all objective. This is poor argumentation and I've never liked it personally since it's fraudulent and misleading.

Anyway, it's really difficult to compare the two comebacks. Very different circumstances are involved. I also continue to be bewildered at how car competitiveness matters little for some in such a comparison. I do feel that Schumi's doing better now not only because he's had time to settle down and regain some of his lost driving fitness, reflexes and instinct etc., but he's also had time to influence car development in a direction that makes him more comfortable driving the car. We are way too critical of Schumi while sitting back and ignoring what's happening with Button for instance. Button's difficulties this year are supposed to give tremendous insight for those who are willing to see that a driver can have a difficult period without losing his mojo or whatever. It's about driver/team/car/setup/tires among other things. We have to watch the driver over seasons and not over 9 races.

Kimi's having a good time now in a car that works for him despite my feeling that he's not yet fully up to his peak. He remains quick but is still not quite as aggressive as he could be on track for him to eek out that extra result through wheel to wheel racing and overtaking. He lacked that somewhat before his timeout and it's quite accentuated now. His almost complete lack of incidents while racing wheel to wheel speaks volumes in how careful he is... a bit too careful if you ask me personally. Speed is not enough to get the results, especially when it means working one's way through the field and having to race wheel to wheel with tough opponents. Alonso and Hamilton have a LOT to show Kimi in that department.

Kudo's to them both, though on relative terms, I have to take my hat off to Schumi when looking at all the circumstances. It's too early to say anything definite about Kimi.

Edited by ali_M, 14 July 2012 - 16:01.

[iakhtar]

It's not a fair comparison, it would be like making a comparison between their Ferrari careers. Both have done well considering their circumstances.

[cilurnum]

Excuses.

The story of Schumacher's comeback so far.

[Buckethead]

Not gonna vote. Pedro is the only one who's faster than his teammate.

[hello86]

Voted for "kimi did slightly better" though it´s really hard to compare coz of the age and the fact that this is Schumi´s 3rd year with Mercedes (so the team already knows exactly what he wants) and Kimi´s first with Lotus.

While Kimi did a good job he didn´t impress me so far.

Schumi was really poor at the 2010 season but did improve from season to season and is doing a good job at the moment (but isn´t impressive either)

Edited by hello86, 15 July 2012 - 13:45.