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Another death during a Rally


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#51 DrProzac

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 14:20

Damn :cry:

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#52 Option1

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 14:48

Damn indeed. :cry:

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#53 undersquare

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 16:21

Both of them! And fire! How terrible :cry:

#54 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 17:08

Never forget this.
Posted Image

In light of the incidents discussed in this thread, I think that the race organizer going over the course and finding all locations where armco is pointed in the direction a car could impact it and properly securing or covering it is a "resonable precaution." Now that they know, there is no excuse for dangerously positioned/unsecured armco on a rally course.

What do you guys think?

#55 DrProzac

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 17:38

I think there should be no armco assembled that way on any roads. It's not only dangerous during rally events, it's also dangerous during day to day driving.

And yes, I think that organizers should check the roads.

Edited by DrProzac, 22 July 2012 - 17:38.


#56 kosmic33

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 17:54

In light of the incidents discussed in this thread, I think that the race organizer going over the course and finding all locations where armco is pointed in the direction a car could impact it and properly securing or covering it is a "resonable precaution." Now that they know, there is no excuse for dangerously positioned/unsecured armco on a rally course.

What do you guys think?

I think there should be no armco assembled that way on any roads. It's not only dangerous during rally events, it's also dangerous during day to day driving.

And yes, I think that organizers should check the roads.

Of course the organisers drive the roads - who do you think are in the course cars running ahead of the competing crews?

Have either of you ever been to a closed road rally?


#57 DrProzac

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 19:03

And where did I wrote they don't do it at all? :drunk:

But perhaps more attention should be paid to this issue? On other hand, when you think about it, often nothing can be done with the armco.

Edited by DrProzac, 22 July 2012 - 19:20.


#58 Victor

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 19:58

And another.....
http://www.demotix.c...l-crash#slide-1

Apparently the car caught fire after an accident and unfortunately, the extinguishers mandated by the FIA couldnt put out a cigarette......


Oh no! I don't belive it, two more deaths! This makes 11 deaths in Rallies this year between drivers, co-divers and spectators.
What was wrong with the fire extinguishers?

Edited by Victor, 22 July 2012 - 20:20.


#59 kosmic33

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 20:50

Oh no! I don't belive it, two more deaths! This makes 11 deaths in Rallies this year between drivers, co-divers and spectators.
What was wrong with the fire extinguishers?

They don't work!
The only thing (that I've seen) that will put out a burning rally car in a hurry is Halon and you're not allowed to carry a halon extinguisher (its bad for the environment). In the UK you have to carry foam which is about as useful as taking a piss on the fire. Some countries allow powder but its not much better.


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#60 Victor

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 21:11

Another death:
During the Rally Príncipe de Asturias the Czech driver Antonin Tlustak lost control of his Skoda and crashed into a group of spectators, killing one.
Sad news.

#61 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 02:53

Rallying for me is far too dangerous in any form.Remember they are public roads designed for moderate speeds and serve that purpose ok most of the time. Wheras rally cars double or triple the speed so when they have an accident it can be large.
So if you want safe[ish] facilitys go road or oval racing. Or take your chances with what is served up. A few tyres around some obvious obstacles can be an inexpensive help but as for the rest they are public roads, not a racetrack.
As for spectators that is another reason not to drive these events as some seem to have a death wish. I have done road closure on state rallys on occasion and some people will not be told that they are stupid until a car just misses them by more good luck than management. Wheras at a racetrack the spectators are generally well protected.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 17 September 2012 - 02:56.


#62 paulogman

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:27

RK are you paying attention?
get the hell out of the woods before it kills you...

#63 EightGear

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:25

Maybe you need to know 95% of rally events are not run in the woods?

#64 Jimisgod

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:29

And another.....
http://www.demotix.c...l-crash#slide-1

Apparently the car caught fire after an accident and unfortunately, the extinguishers mandated by the FIA couldnt put out a cigarette......


Oh dear god, I hope they didn't suffer in the fire.

#65 BRG

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:39

Maybe you need to know 95% of rally events are not run in the woods?

And most of the casualties are dim-witted spectators who stand in stupid places. Like in the escape road at a junction, or on the outside of bends.

#66 DrProzac

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 15:04

BRG had a good point in the Robert Kubica thread - there's a lot rallying taking place and often there are more competitors in each rally than you usually get on a track. So the number of fatal accidents may be high, but the rate in which they happen (or the level of danger if you like) may not be as bad as most think.

Still, when you have an off on a circuit you usually have a lot of safe run-off areas etc. On stages you don't so it won't ever be as safe as on circuits.

#67 BRG

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 19:57

Still, when you have an off on a circuit you usually have a lot of safe run-off areas etc. On stages you don't so it won't ever be as safe as on circuits.

Also consider that offs on rallies are usually at far lower speeds than on circuits. On gravel roads you will probably not exceed 120mph very often if at all, and on tarmac perhaps 130mph. And that is on the straight bits - in the corners we are talking about 50-70mph. On race tracks, it is three figure speeds.

#68 Ian G

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 23:36

Reminds of the quote attributed to Frank Gardiner(but pre-dates him by many years) when asked about entering a Rally,"with a tree on every corner,i don't think so". The speeds the Rally cars are doing at the moment,200KPH +,is insane and dangerous,i I think we are getting to a point where there will be Govt. intervention like what happened in the 1950's,it just at this time Govt's have more pressing priorities with the GFC.It will be interesting where it all leads and what the FIA does to preserve Rallying on public roads into the future.

#69 DrProzac

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:18

Also consider that offs on rallies are usually at far lower speeds than on circuits. On gravel roads you will probably not exceed 120mph very often if at all, and on tarmac perhaps 130mph. And that is on the straight bits - in the corners we are talking about 50-70mph. On race tracks, it is three figure speeds.

All you said is right. What I meant is that it's easier to avoid crashing on circuits due to run-offs ;)

#70 BRG

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:53

The speeds the Rally cars are doing at the moment,200KPH +,is insane and dangerous

Sorry but this is an alarmist exaggeration. The FIA prescribes a maximum average speed of rally stages of IIRC 120kph. Obviously speeds on straight bits will exceed that, but when you are designing a stage, you have to take into account whether competitors are going to beat the maximum average (bogey). Hence organisers look for twisty roads. Yes there are perhaps a few places where 200kph top speeds might be achieved but they will be few and far between. To make out that speeds like that are the norm is like claiming that all race tracks are like the Mulsanne Straight.

The FIA are always intervening to control speeds. That's why current WRCs are now down to 1.6 litre and only about 300bhp.

Edited by BRG, 18 September 2012 - 18:54.


#71 DrProzac

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 19:17

The maximum average speed is 130 IIRC :)

The actual average speed record is almost 130 km/h:


FIA effectively banned the stage for a long time after that.

Edited by DrProzac, 18 September 2012 - 19:18.


#72 kosmic33

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 21:28

The maximum average speed is 130 IIRC :)

The actual average speed record is almost 130 km/h:


FIA effectively banned the stage for a long time after that.

The fia did not decide to ban the stage.
The organisers chose not to run the stage in its entirety as they knew the bogey time would be beaten.
The stage ran again this year as the 1.6 cars lack the outright top speed and torque of the 2.0's making them slower over a stage of this nature

#73 Ian G

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 23:06

Sorry but this is an alarmist exaggeration. The FIA prescribes a maximum average speed of rally stages of IIRC 120kph. Obviously speeds on straight bits will exceed that, but when you are designing a stage, you have to take into account whether competitors are going to beat the maximum average (bogey). Hence organisers look for twisty roads. Yes there are perhaps a few places where 200kph top speeds might be achieved but they will be few and far between. To make out that speeds like that are the norm is like claiming that all race tracks are like the Mulsanne Straight.

The FIA are always intervening to control speeds. That's why current WRCs are now down to 1.6 litre and only about 300bhp.


No worries,your correct,i should have said "capable of 200 kph",however this speed is obtainable and the cars do reach this speed on some stages.I attended the WRC event held in Northern NSW Oz in 2009 and was talking to the drivers & crew,they made no secret of the speeds the cars achieved and this was widely reported in the Media here. There were several reasons why the Rally was moved on from this area to Coffs Harbour including Greenies playing chicken with the cars and placing objects on the route but the underlying reason was that local Tweed Heads Shire Councillors were amazed(& shocked) with the speed the cars did and felt it was only a matter of time before there was a major accident involving multiple fatalties.

#74 DrProzac

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:40

The fia did not decide to ban the stage.
The organisers chose not to run the stage in its entirety as they knew the bogey time would be beaten.
The stage ran again this year as the 1.6 cars lack the outright top speed and torque of the 2.0's making them slower over a stage of this nature

The key word is effectively. The stage was split into two. And the current cars weren't really slower, weren't they.

#75 kosmic33

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:44

The key word is effectively. The stage was split into two. And the current cars weren't really slower, weren't they.

The FIA at no point whatsoever made any attempt to ban the Ouninpohja stage. Ever.

The current cars did not beat the bogey time so they arent any faster than 2004.
The stage didnt run in 2005 because a 2005 car would have beaten the bogey

#76 kosmic33

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:47

No worries,your correct,i should have said "capable of 200 kph",however this speed is obtainable and the cars do reach this speed on some stages.I attended the WRC event held in Northern NSW Oz in 2009 and was talking to the drivers & crew,they made no secret of the speeds the cars achieved and this was widely reported in the Media here. There were several reasons why the Rally was moved on from this area to Coffs Harbour including Greenies playing chicken with the cars and placing objects on the route but the underlying reason was that local Tweed Heads Shire Councillors were amazed(& shocked) with the speed the cars did and felt it was only a matter of time before there was a major accident involving multiple fatalties.

Im pretty sure the rally moved mainly due to financial reasons, with retarded hippies being reason #2

#77 DrProzac

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 12:12

The FIA at no point whatsoever made any attempt to ban the Ouninpohja stage. Ever.

The current cars did not beat the bogey time so they arent any faster than 2004.
The stage didnt run in 2005 because a 2005 car would have beaten the bogey

Lol, you like to correct people and have the last word even though the bottom line argument is the same, don't you?;)

As far as the context of this thread is concerned, it doesn't matter that it was the organizers decision - if they didn't do it FIA would most probably force them to. Especially if the record were beaten again in 2005 as you pointed out. What happened wasn't entirely down to organizers, FIA WRC safety delegate Jacek Bartos (or rather Bartoś) was involved. Due to the rule Ouninpohja was gone (in it's proper form) for a few years. The whole point in context of the discussion was that there is a average speed limit in place and it isn't a dead rule. I fail to see your point but never mind.

This year the time was better than Petter's from 2004. All media said the record was broken - twice. I doubt the stage is exactly the same as before (some 200-300m shorter, I've heard) and from what I know the average speed record wasn't beaten. But the cars weren't much slower, which was my point (maybe "really" was a bad choice of words). Unless I don't know something and the stage was a lot different. No further information on the net. If you're that well informed maybe you know the details?:) Honestly, I'd like to know that (especially the average speed of Miko's run).

And to keep this on track - TBH I think that the limit, while not allowing speed to get seriously out of hand isn't a panacea for serious accidents. You can have one at speed lower than 130 km/h if you're unlucky enough, not to mention at speeds they are doing on the straight, fast parts. But I'm stating the obvious, aren't I?

#78 skywing

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 13:20

This year the time was better than Petter's from 2004. All media said the record was broken - twice. I doubt the stage is exactly the same as before (some 200-300m shorter, I've heard) and from what I know the average speed record wasn't beaten. But the cars weren't much slower, which was my point (maybe "really" was a bad choice of words). Unless I don't know something and the stage was a lot different. No further information on the net. If you're that well informed maybe you know the details?:) Honestly, I'd like to know that (especially the average speed of Miko's run).

SS18 Ouninpohja 2 (Power Stage) 33.01 km Hirvonen, Mikko 15:17,3 129.55 km/h

#79 Tsarwash

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 13:27

Pointing out that motorsport is inherently dangerous is not tantamount to saying that continual search for improved standards of safety is unwanted or unnecessary.
Rallying is always going to be dangerous. I wouldn't dream of wanting to stop the activity because so many people enjoy it, but clear dangers such as faulty armco barriers should be looked at at every event.

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#80 kosmic33

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 14:38

SS18 Ouninpohja 2 (Power Stage) 33.01 km Hirvonen, Mikko 15:17,3 129.55 km/h

Petter averaged 130.38km/h in 2004



#81 DrProzac

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 16:10

Thanks, it's quite close isn't it?:) Anyway if someone knows how much different the stage was, I'd appreciate if he/she shared his knowledge.

Well said Tsarwash.

Edited by DrProzac, 19 September 2012 - 16:11.


#82 skywing

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 16:27

Thanks, it's quite close isn't it?:) Anyway if someone knows how much different the stage was, I'd appreciate if he/she shared his knowledge.

Well said Tsarwash.

The 2012 version was shortened by some 200 metres from the start of the stage. BTW, what do you guys think about this, Rally Finland 2010: SS10 Myhinpaa 2 15.52 km Loeb, Sebastien 6:59,8 133.09 km/h
Myhinpaa was also run in 2009 with the average speed of 131.56 km/h. So the "rule" apparently isn't that strict.

#83 kosmic33

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 19:21

And most of the casualties are dim-witted spectators who stand in stupid places. Like in the escape road at a junction, or on the outside of bends.

This is the main issue though^

Its like some spectators have a death wish

#84 BRG

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 16:35

This is the main issue though^

Its like some spectators have a death wish

Or at best, a lack of imagination, and a lack of knowledge about where cars can leave the road. I remember marshalling on a stage in the Forest of Dean many years ago and struggling to get a family, complete with buggies, assorted sizes of children plus grandma, to move from a silly place on the outside of a bend. It took a lot of persuasion. But I succeeded and they moved away grumbling about me. I stood there for a moment checking if there was anyone else who needed to be moved when the next car spun off and I had to dive for safety myself.

Funnily enough, all the spectators listened to me after that!

Edited by BRG, 20 September 2012 - 16:35.


#85 DrProzac

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 18:22

A buddy of mine was a marshal a few times. He quickly decided to quit it. He said to me "I don't want to take responsibility for lives of idiots anymore". After hearing that I never even thought about marshaling myself.

I guess that some people like the risk. But that's probably a minority. There are photographers who want a good shot, but that's another minority. The rest of the people who risk their life must be just dumb.

Edited by DrProzac, 20 September 2012 - 18:24.


#86 spacekid

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 18:26

Or at best, a lack of imagination, and a lack of knowledge about where cars can leave the road. I remember marshalling on a stage in the Forest of Dean many years ago and struggling to get a family, complete with buggies, assorted sizes of children plus grandma, to move from a silly place on the outside of a bend. It took a lot of persuasion. But I succeeded and they moved away grumbling about me. I stood there for a moment checking if there was anyone else who needed to be moved when the next car spun off and I had to dive for safety myself.

Funnily enough, all the spectators listened to me after that!


Posts like this genuinly give me chills. Its scary how little understanding people have for the the dangers of motorsports.

I guess some people think that if its an official event then it must be 'safe' thrills like a theme park.

#87 kosmic33

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 19:17