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Nurburgring Bankrupt


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#1 Wiggy

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 13:09

http://m.gpupdate.ne...ses-to-support/

Expect more tracks to go this way. A shame.

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#2 Risil

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 13:17

Which ones did you have in mind? The Nurburgring by most accounts was not managed like a regular race circuit.

#3 GSiebert

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 13:19

I know Portimao is in big troubles as well.

#4 Risil

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 13:32

Estoril too, if giving away MotoGP tickets almost for free this year was anything to go by. :well:

#5 nacad

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 14:24

Most circuits worldwide arn't in a good financial state.

I did hear a rumour that DORNA reduced the sanctioning fee for some of the spanish races so they could charge less for tickets and get more people there given how popular it is there.

#6 Myrvold

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 14:27

THe ring should really be saved by qualifying for funding as a result of 'Historical and cultural significance'?

#7 UPRC

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 14:28

Saddest part about this? It will go in one of Bernie's ears and then straight out the other.

#8 TimRTC

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 14:32

Does this concern only the GP circuit or the whole schebang?

#9 fisssssi

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 15:13

Isn't this the track that built a stupid theme park or something next door? If so, then it's not really surprising...

#10 bmardini

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 15:28

Was there a couple of weeks ago, did about a dozen laps at the Nordschleife.

The GP and Nordschleife I think are owned by the same company, since the weekly VLN races that are run during the summer as run on the Nurburgring full circuit.

The theme park and associated mall etc are a total bust. Place was completely empty on a Sunday afternoon, and the rollercoaster that they built is sitting idle, useless.

This despite the astronimical increases in prices of everything - a lap used to cost 9 Euro, now its 26 (if you buy single laps)

Not surprised its going bust.

#11 pingu666

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 15:48

yeah the company that owns the ring screwed up
silverstone isnt in great shape either


#12 zk12

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 16:25

what does that mean for f1 or the 24h race?

#13 Nonesuch

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 16:27

Isn't this the track that built a stupid theme park or something next door? If so, then it's not really surprising...

Yup. Short clip about it here:

That's a short clip but it has English subtitles, there was a German report a year or so ago about the whole situation that runs about 40 minutes if I recall correctly.

#14 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 16:48

They could rescue the situation

More theme days, lower circuit fees, their own insurance centre etc.

#15 DrProzac

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 16:48

:(

#16 JRizzle86

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 17:08

The German car manufacturers would be very best placed to take an interest. The Nordschleife is constantly used by the car industry to test cars and the place holds great historical interest.

#17 FlashMaster

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 17:13

Further information in English here http://mikefrison.com/1666

Don't believe the official propaganda by Kurt Beck or these god damn investors.

Edited by FlashMaster, 18 July 2012 - 17:13.


#18 FlashMaster

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 17:45

what does that mean for f1 or the 24h race?


Looks like they won't happen next year, the same problem with Rock am Ring. Such am shame.

#19 pingu666

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 17:46

snetterton has a mini retail park thing, which is actually quite nice, awesome model shop which is *huge*
suzuka has a themepark doesnt it?
maybe ok ideas and poor excicution


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#20 loki

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 18:27

Most circuits worldwide arn't in a good financial state.


The business model here in the Colonies is different and the private tracks are mostly in pretty good shape, even in a down economy. Much of the revenue comes not from promoting pro racing but from things like club racing,, karting on the big car tracks, track days for enthusiasts with street cars, performance and race training, motorcycle racing, commercial filming, private test days, etc. The tracks that have pro races are usually able to bank enough profit from one or two events to cover most of the expenses of the year. That's a big issue with F1 in the US for so long, promoters want to make money too, not get fleeced by FOM/CVC for the "privilege" of holding a GP. At many private tracks the bookings require a year or so notice because they are booked every weekend possible. Others are what we call auto country clubs, much like a golfing country club but for racing. Some of those have been hit pretty hard but that's more due to the fee schedule. In one case the initiation fee is US$10,000 plus monthly dues. A bit steep for most. Racers aren't the primary clients, it's rich guys with exotics that want exclusive track time.

Bummer about the Nurhburg. Hope they can find a solution. It would be a shame to see it go away, particularly something as iconic as the Nordschleife.


#21 SonnyViceR

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 18:59

Extremely sad but hardly surprising.

I am gonna cry so hard if this means the end of Nurburgring 24 hours!

#22 pingu666

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 19:12

bit on radiolemans now :x

#23 r4mses

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 20:31

what does that mean for f1 or the 24h race?


in German TV they just said most on track action will continue (for now) because most of the contracts run for a few more years.

#24 Clatter

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 20:38

in German TV they just said most on track action will continue (for now) because most of the contracts run for a few more years.


I would assume they will try to run business as usual while seeking new investors or buyers, but that would be short term regardless of contracts.

#25 pingu666

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 22:09

its well known that most circuits arent making money off F1, at least directly, plus theres that fun 10% compound esculator in the bernie fee's each year. thats why the ring and hock alternate, so they can spread the cost over 2 years.


#26 FlashMaster

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 22:18

F1 is not the problem, it's the oversized leisure park including hotels, roller coaster, restaurants which were built 2007-09 cost over 400 Mio €. Everything WAY too oversized for this unpopulous region. These damn investors couldn't pay the rent from day 1.

Edited by FlashMaster, 18 July 2012 - 22:20.


#27 WhiteBlue

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:36

http://www.sportsbus...urburgring.aspx
Apparently the latest on this issue is a proposal by Ecclestone to run the GP in 2013 if he is given all the revenues and control of the venue for 14 days.

It would probably be a way out unless I'm overlooking something here.

#28 bmardini

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:11

Extremely sad but hardly surprising.

I am gonna cry so hard if this means the end of Nurburgring 24 hours!


24 Hour is run by the same group that does the 4 & 6 hour VLN. They are fine. The VLN series is a promoter that is not associated with the owners (thank god), and they run their own thing. Last VLN I went to (July 6 or 7?) the pitlane was packed as usual, the cars are getting faster (fewer touring cars, more and more FIA-GT3 cars. I don't understand how you can drive that there. Its nuts.), the seats are getting more expensive, new teams are coming on board at all levels... The racing itself is fine.

#29 selespeed

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:21

nordschleife was never a problem...all the bullshit around it is...

#30 FlashMaster

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:11

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#31 Clatter

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:32

http://www.sportsbus...urburgring.aspx
Apparently the latest on this issue is a proposal by Ecclestone to run the GP in 2013 if he is given all the revenues and control of the venue for 14 days.

It would probably be a way out unless I'm overlooking something here.


Who is going to maintain the circuit for the rest of the year?


#32 Bloggsworth

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:52

But Ecclestone hopes to keep it - Keeping Bernie Ecclestone in the style to which he is accustomed is probably one of the reasons it's going broke...

#33 byronbolscher

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:58

But Ecclestone hopes to keep it - Keeping Bernie Ecclestone in the style to which he is accustomed is probably one of the reasons it's going broke...


Nothing to do with Ecclestone or F1, they build a whole themepark around the track which gave them epic debts, and it's empty, so the debts aren't going away, THAT'S the problem. But I wouldn't be suprised if some German car maker would sweep in and buy the place (VW?).

#34 D.M.N.

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:13

Keep this thread about Nurburgring, take discussion about Silverstone to a separate thread please.

Thanks.

#35 Amphicar

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:47

Nothing to do with Ecclestone or F1, they build a whole themepark around the track which gave them epic debts, and it's empty, so the debts aren't going away, THAT'S the problem. But I wouldn't be suprised if some German car maker would sweep in and buy the place (VW?).

But the 'Ring had financial problems well before the theme park was built. In fact the theme park was supposed to produce enough profit to offset the losses from the operating the circuit(s). Sadly, it didn't work out that way and the theme park and associated hotel multiplied the problems. Simply maintaining the Nordschleife in a driveable condition must cost a fortune - particularly as the Eifel mountains get pretty severe winters, as this clip demonstrates:

#36 WhiteBlue

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:49

But Ecclestone hopes to keep it - Keeping Bernie Ecclestone in the style to which he is accustomed is probably one of the reasons it's going broke...

Nothing to do with Ecclestone or F1, they build a whole themepark around the track which gave them epic debts, and it's empty, so the debts aren't going away, THAT'S the problem. But I wouldn't be suprised if some German car maker would sweep in and buy the place (VW?).

To some degree it has something to do with Ecclestone. The overblown race fees motivated the Ring to look for other revenues to pay Bernie and then they fell for the scam with the investors that were not existing. It is to equal parts the commercial pressure from Bernie and the stupidity of the social democrats local government and their mismanagement of the funding that has caused the mess we are now facing.

There is no real prospect of German car makers taking over the management of the Ring. The most likely long term solution is a coalition of local businesses to take over the management once the bankruptcy administration has cleared the business of it's excessive debts. There are a number of traditional local enterprises which live of the Ring's attraction of tourism and automotive testing all year long. They have suffered from the botched scheme of the now busted promoter. They would probably turn a profit if they are given control and Bernie accepts that his fee can't be more than the revenues from the GP fortnight.


#37 FlashMaster

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:13

But the 'Ring had financial problems well before the theme park was built. In fact the theme park was supposed to produce enough profit to offset the losses from the operating the circuit(s). Sadly, it didn't work out...


Debts 2006 - 27 Mio Euro

Debts now after NurburgDisney was built 413 Mio Euro

("Illegal state aid claimed by European Commission is 524 Mio Euro at this point in time, might even grow.")

Just to show how dumb it was to build this crap...

Edited by FlashMaster, 19 July 2012 - 11:13.


#38 ayali

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 11:29

Debts 2006 - 27 Mio Euro

Debts now after NurburgDisney was built 413 Mio Euro

("Illegal state aid claimed by European Commission is 524 Mio Euro at this point in time, might even grow.")

Just to show how dumb it was to build this crap...

yeah well hindsight is 20/20 you know

It's like Amphicar said they tried by making these large investments to produce enough profit to offset the losses the Ring produced.
Didn't work out, so now some entity will lose a lot of money and the (local) government too.
After bankruptcy frees the Ring of (most of) it's debts there will always be interested parties to operate, lease or buy the Ring at the right price.

:cool:

#39 pingu666

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 12:04


ring bit right at the start

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#40 selespeed

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 15:53

rock am ring...

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=QCcTtHhbCCk

#41 anbeck

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:43

Please let this race track die for F1. All this super fake commercialization didn't do it any good.

They should get rid of the Tilke-stuff, make a simplistic Südschleife and just leave it to low-level Nordschleife amateur and lower class races. All these attempts to impress Bernie made it worse and worse and worse.

I am sad to see it go from F1 (I like the new Hockenheim even less), but what happened there in the past years is really ridiculous.

#42 FlashMaster

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 14:08

Bernie dumped the Nürburgring operators and didn't appear...

http://www.swr.de/na..._medium=twitter

#43 Risil

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 14:49

Please let this race track die for F1. All this super fake commercialization didn't do it any good.

They should get rid of the Tilke-stuff, make a simplistic Südschleife and just leave it to low-level Nordschleife amateur and lower class races. All these attempts to impress Bernie made it worse and worse and worse.

I am sad to see it go from F1 (I like the new Hockenheim even less), but what happened there in the past years is really ridiculous.



Careful what you wish for: Oschersleben and Lausitzring are much, much worse. Actually, Sachsenring aside Germany's race circuits are surprisingly poor. The country's modern, closed tracks tend to make the Snetterton "300" layout look inspiring. Any Germans here care enough to try hypothesising why? Nordschleife-complacency, perhaps. ;)

Edited by Risil, 23 July 2012 - 14:49.


#44 anbeck

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 13:28

Apparently the regional parliament has agreed to blow another quarter of a billion Euros into the circuit. The opposition, however, says that these subsidiaries are a breach of European law, so let's see.

I hope they use the money to tear down all this stuff they have built in the past years!

#45 FlashMaster

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:17

VLN series 6h race livestream: http://www.vln.de/tv/

Livetiming: http://vln.wige-livetiming.de/

#46 Sakae

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:57

We need Nürburgring on the calendar. Things might need to change how it is run, but tradition should be preserved.

#47 Sakae

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 09:54

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101751

I am not anymore surprised they do not have time to investigate activities of bankers around the continent, if they are busy with a such important thing like an F1 circuit. I am all for that no crime should remain unpunished, but one would assume that there are priorites, and historical time line as cases are coming before commission. Weird timing, weird focus.

#48 scheivlak

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 10:31

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101751

I am not anymore surprised they do not have time to investigate activities of bankers around the continent, if they are busy with a such important thing like an F1 circuit. I am all for that no crime should remain unpunished, but one would assume that there are priorites, and historical time line as cases are coming before commission. Weird timing, weird focus.

Look at the money involved, this is multi-million euro stuff! And it's not like they have to let the bankers off the hook to concentrate on this.
They can't just let things like this pass, I just wished they've done things like this more often.

#49 pdac

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:25

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101751

I am not anymore surprised they do not have time to investigate activities of bankers around the continent, if they are busy with a such important thing like an F1 circuit. I am all for that no crime should remain unpunished, but one would assume that there are priorites, and historical time line as cases are coming before commission. Weird timing, weird focus.

It's not an F1 circuit they are interested in, it's the use or mis-use of public money.

#50 Sakae

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:42

It's not an F1 circuit they are interested in, it's the use or mis-use of public money.

I realize that. My point was one of sarcasm, that there are probably hundred more important cases of earlier date and of the same character to attend, but this one gets a headline.