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Sophie's McLaren's choice: What if Jenson was leading a McLaren 1-2 at Hockenheim?


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Poll: Sophie's McLaren's choice: What if Jenson was leading a McLaren 1-2 at Hockenheim? (246 member(s) have cast votes)

Would McLaren ask Jenson to move over?

  1. Yes (44 votes [17.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.89%

  2. No (173 votes [70.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 70.33%

  3. I don't know (29 votes [11.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.79%

Should McLaren ask Jenson to move over?

  1. Yes (122 votes [49.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 49.59%

  2. No (97 votes [39.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.43%

  3. Maybe (27 votes [10.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.98%

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#1 Kvothe

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 00:46

3 days before the German Grand Prix and in honour of of the last Hockenheim race I have a dilemma for you all:

If near the end of the Hockenheim Grand Prix Jenson was leading a McLaren 1-2, with both showing equal pace, would McLaren ask Jenson to move over?
McLaren (regardless of what you think about their other driver lineups) have during the Jenson's tenure maintained a policy of equality which means that
as long as both drivers are mathematically in the hunt for the World Drivers Championship both will be given equal treatment and not made subordinate to the other. With Jenson 79 points off the lead, but not mathematicallyout of the championship, would they ask him to move over? This first question asks for an objective answer based on the information you know about the team.

The second question is a much more subjective one, if the scenario above were to arise should they ask him to move over?

Arguments against:
Jenson, while a long shot, still has a chance at the WDC and should be given it.
If Lewis wants the win he should pass him on track without assistance
It might tarnish McLaren as it did with Ferrari two years ago (rightly or wrongly)
Likely to negatively impact on Button's confidence and drive.

Arguments for:
Jenson has a mathematical chance, but in such a competitive environment not a realistic one.
Lewis with a forty point deficit needs all the points he can get.
If McLaren want to win something this year they need to put all their eggs in one basket.
Ferrari did the same and Alonso came close to winning the championship



What do you think?

Edit: I see the strikethrough doesn't work on a topic title :(

Edited by Kvothe, 19 July 2012 - 00:47.


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#2 engel

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 00:55

I don't think they would but I think they should

#3 Cacarella

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 00:59

I don't think they would but I think they should


+1 :up:

During a season like this where the title may go down to the wire the Mclaren mentality
of equality until the end is what will cost them the WDC.

#4 Markn93

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:01

During a season like this where the title may go down to the wire the Mclaren mentality
of equality until the end is what will cost them the WDC.


Could well be the case :(

#5 pingu666

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:08

tbh im not sure jenson would move over if asked. i remmber he didnt sometimes for rubens when they where in the crappy honda's


#6 KavB

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:09

McLaren should. Lewis has lost a lot of ground in the past 2 races. He is still very much in the fight but Jenson is done for the year. He's closer to Massa in the standings than he is to his teammate.

#7 gm914

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:13

If McLaren are running 1-2 at Hockenheim it just means they are the only team who haven't pitted yet.

#8 Kvothe

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:13

tbh im not sure jenson would move over if asked. i remmber he didnt sometimes for rubens when they where in the crappy honda's


That's a very interesting point?

Would Jenson respond if asked?
What would the fallout, in terms of team atmosphere, be if didn't?

Would the fact Jenson has a contract beyond this year but Lewis doesn't, have any effect on the decision making?

Edited by Kvothe, 19 July 2012 - 01:14.


#9 Markn93

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:18

Don't want to open a can of worms here, but JB didn't exactly make it easy for Lewis to get through when he was a pitstop behind and not even racing him just last race! I doubt he'd let Lewis through if they were racing for position, forget the standings, it's a matter of pride. And frankly, whilst I may be unhappy as a fan wanting a Mclaren WDC, I would completely understand.

#10 Starlight

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:18

Did they not try something along the lines of that in Silverstone? I remember reading something about that in one of the threads. How effective that was, I am unsure but it shows that they can/will do it if required. Of course Silverstone was not a 1-2 situation but if this happens in Germany, i don't think that it's a wrong call by McLaren. They need to maximise their chances at all times.

Edited by Starlight, 19 July 2012 - 01:20.


#11 Kvothe

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:22

Apparently he was told not to worry about Lewis, but I think that could be taken as more of a suggestion rather then an actual order.

Edited by Kvothe, 19 July 2012 - 01:23.


#12 grunge

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:29

I don't think they would but I think they should

This..

Lewis has lost too much ground in the last two races..with Ferrari now back at the top,RB strong every weekend,Lotus nearly always competitive,Lewis is their only bet right now

#13 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:34

They would and should.

McLaren has had no issues with issuing to's in the past, Heikki in France and Germany 2008 are good examples.

But will they order Button out of the way in that situation? It may be harder for them as Jenson is a world champion.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 19 July 2012 - 01:38.


#14 teejay

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:58

Jenson wouldnt move over if it was the last lap of the year and needed to for Lewis to win the WDC

#15 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:20

Jenson wouldnt move over if it was the last lap of the year and needed to for Lewis to win the WDC

You dont really believe that do you?

Lewis moved over for Jenson last year at Suzuka after saying he'd help Jenson in any way he could. I'd lose a lot of respect for Button if he couldn't return the favor. A lot. And I'd be right there in line with all the angry Mclaren fans saying he should get sacked, too.

I think Button is a team player, but I think whether Mclaren would use team orders this coming race or not comes down to where Button is mentally right now. I've never thought of him as a weak guy mentally(he did leave a championship winning team to partner Lewis after all), but egos can be delicate things. That 'mathematical' chance might be sitting in his head, but I also imagine he's smart enough to realize how that chance is more or less non-existent in practical terms. I imagine he's pretty torn about it and Mclaren probably wouldn't ask him to move over if he hadn't given the team the 'ok' to run him as a no.2. Not this early at least. Especially after the Alonso/Lewis debacle, Mclaren seem to tread pretty lightly when it comes to stepping on their driver's shoes.

But should they? Definitely. They cant let a bruised ego get in the way of a championship.

Getting the car sorted out is probably their main focus, though. Right now, a Mclaren 1-2 seems somewhat far-fetched with Button's current form so until that happens, I dont imagine they'll be all too concerned about the possibility of having to use team orders.

#16 teejay

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:56

Sean - I dont. I probably should have used italics.

As for this weekend right now... even though I think they should, I dont think they would.

And I suspect the team dont think they should or would.

#17 BigCHrome

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 04:17

Pff Whitmarsh asking his golden boy to move over? He wouldn't ask him to move over if it was the last race of the season and Hamilton needed a win to guarantee the WDC.

#18 Kingshark

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 04:34

They probably wont as Writmarsh is virtually in love with Jenson. Although they should if they think they can actually win the championship this season. However, anyone who's followed F1 closely for the past 13 years will realize that no matter what the circumstances, Mclaren will find some way to screw it up.

#19 mlsnoopy

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 05:55

Even if Button is ahead, Hamilton will just drive by.

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#20 Nobody

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:12

IF they ask him, he (Jenson) WILL do it.

#21 bourbon

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:21

No they should not ask, and he should not do it if they do ask. If Hamilton was in a close race for 1st and Jenson was completely out of it, then okay. Otherwise, it turns racing into a farce - just as it did in Germany 2010.

#22 Gareth

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:45

I don't think they would but I think they should

Agree with this.

But also, sadly, agree with this:

If McLaren are running 1-2 at Hockenheim it just means they are the only team who haven't pitted yet.

So I fully expect this question to remain a hypothetical one!

#23 Lazy

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:06

Ridiculous, you can't make that sort of decision when we haven't finished half the races yet, he has a win and a 2nd, ofc he's still in it.

He's had a bad 1st half, he might well have a good 2nd half and Lewis a bad 2nd half (historically quite likely).

If the upgrades work and McLaren start winning and their opponents keep taking points off each other as they have been, then it could easily be between JB and LH by the end of the season. If they don't work Lewis has no chance anyway.

Also, considering the amount of damage it did Ferrari, for the sake of 7 points?

#24 PayasYouRace

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:26

I have no idea if they would. They have usually let these drivers race in the past.

I think they probably should. Lewis is a much better chance for the championship this year.

There is one question missing from the poll: I would rather that they didn't, even if it wasn't in their best interests. I always prefer a fight on track.

#25 MeatPopsicle

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:27

abu dhabi 2010 jenson conceeded the first corner to lewis.. he is a team player but im sure in his mind hes not out of the championship hunt yet so wont conceed

#26 Augurk

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:33

And what if they do, then button gets on top of things and next some freak races occur (or is that unlikely in 2012?), meaning jenson is the only guy to challenge for the wdc entering the final race, yet loses out by 0-7 points?

#27 Tony Mandara

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:35

Sometimes I think a lot of poeple here are not familiar with the McLaren ethos of WINNING GRANDS PRIX, and think that McLaren exists only for Lewis Hamilton to win championships!




#28 One

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:44

I do not think that they WANT to give team order.
What they should? win first! and keep on winning!

#29 Markn93

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:46

abu dhabi 2010 jenson conceeded the first corner to lewis.. he is a team player but im sure in his mind hes not out of the championship hunt yet so wont conceed


Just because he qualified (a row) behind on the grid, doesn't mean that he was conceding the corner. Watch it again.

By your logic Jenson has been conceding the corner in every race bar Australia this year :stoned:

#30 aray

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:12

they won't do it...not when 11 races still remaining....rather they would be ecstatic that button has regain his form.....

if anything,they will rather ask lewis not to push too much and salvage the 1-2 without drama..:smoking:

imo,who is Sophie.. :confused:

Edited by aray, 19 July 2012 - 08:13.


#31 Gareth

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:27

who is Sophie.. :confused:

It refers to this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie's_Choice_(novel) (suggesting a difficult choice for McLaren if this situation arose).

Sophie was supposed to be in strikeout but the strikout tags don't work in thread titles.

#32 McRules

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:33

Dont care as long as the car is good enough for a 1-2.

#33 Tsarwash

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:38

I think that it's too early for McLaren to do this yet, by their own standards. Give it two more races, with the same standings and they will start to think this way. I like the fact that they let their drivers race, until it is reasonable to have a support driver. This season is so unpredictable that it's not unfeasible that Jensen couldn't win the WDC.

#34 aray

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:41

It refers to this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie's_Choice_(novel) (suggesting a difficult choice for McLaren if this situation arose).

Sophie was supposed to be in strikeout but the strikout tags don't work in thread titles.

oh!ok...didn't know that... :D

#35 BinaryDad

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:46

If the car is good enough for a 1-2 win, then there's nothing to discuss; there's no way Button would be in front of Hamilton in a situation like that, given dry and unchanging conditions.

Edited by BinaryDad, 19 July 2012 - 08:47.


#36 Lazy

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:55

If the car is good enough for a 1-2 win, then there's nothing to discuss; there's no way Button would be in front of Hamilton in a situation like that, given dry and unchanging conditions.


Yeah, Australia was so long ago :rolleyes:

#37 undersquare

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:03

If the car is good enough for a 1-2 win, then there's nothing to discuss; there's no way Button would be in front of Hamilton in a situation like that, given dry and unchanging conditions.


Bad pitstop, tyre call... :eek: :eek: :eek:


I would be hoping (against hope) that there was a pre-existing deal that was equitable between them but nevertheless called for Lewis to be let through. But I doubt there is one; by the sound of it in 2010 (ISTR) the mathematical chance at the wdc is the threshold for giving way. Pity, and IMO not clever enough.

As it is it would undermine Jense badly to be made to give way. So I think the team would let Lewis race for it, but he would have to.

I would see it as the right choice on the day, otherwise JB's performance would slide. I've seen Ron give that explanation and I think he's right.

But I'd also see it as bad racing by the team, not to have had a smarter plan in place at the start of the season that both drivers had signed up to.


#38 garoidb

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:11

Jenson wouldnt move over if it was the last lap of the year and needed to for Lewis to win the WDC


Of course he would (although I would hope that it would be done earlier and more subtly).

As for 2010, the fact that there were two Red Bulls in contention was what created the dilemma leading to Alonso's pit stop strategy error.

#39 aditya-now

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:13

I don't think they would but I think they should



They would not and they should not. After all they are McLaren.
Ferrari on the other hand would and should - after all they are Ferari!

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#40 garoidb

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:15

He's had a bad 1st half, he might well have a good 2nd half and Lewis a bad 2nd half (historically quite likely).


If that happens it will make no difference anyway.

Also, considering the amount of damage it did Ferrari, for the sake of 7 points?


It gave them a very good shot at the title in the last race, and actually, did them no damage at all. How much was the fine again?

#41 jstrains

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:19

The answer is very simple - McLaren will probably not lead 1-2 at Hockenheim (before finish).

#42 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:04

Not convinced they'd be 1-2 in the race anyway. Even if they were together ie 1-2, 2-3, 4-5 etc, you also have to bear in mind how close they may be on track. In 2010, Felipe and Fernando were close together on track. If Jenson is 10-12 seconds ahead of Lewis for whatever reason, then I don't think they'd tell him to slow down so dramatically to let Lewis past (plus you'd also have to bear in mind whether someone was right behind Lewis as well, as of course there'd be the risk that whoever was behind Lewis would get past Jenson too. In 2010, Ferrari didn't have that problem as nobody was say within 1-2 seconds of Fernando as Smedley sent the infamous message to Massa.

#43 jrg19

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:06

Its not something id want to see but when your fighting a team in Ferrari who would deploy these tactics i guess you have to do the same otherwise your dropping points.

#44 TheWilliamzer

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:10

Mclaren know how to do it! "Uhh Jenson we're tight on fuel. Yellow G 1. Confirm?"

#45 bauss

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:15

I highly doubt Mclaren with all the MW manlove of JB will do that...

Even if they do, I highly doubt JB will do it. People underestimate just how competitive JB is and how focused he is on not getting beat by LH.

Plus the man himself has categorically said before he will not agree to such messages.

In any case, it is an unlikely hypothetical for many reasons... but stranger things have happened.

#46 Owen

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:16

Its not something id want to see but when your fighting a team in Ferrari who would deploy these tactics i guess you have to do the same otherwise your dropping points.

Exactly. In reality, I can't see McLaren asking Jenson to let Lewis through but if I was in charge, I have to say that I probably would.
If you did ask Jense to let Lewis through, you might be opening yourself up to some serious morale and inter-team issues and controversy. This is a tough dilema!

#47 bonjon1979a

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:20

Exactly. In reality, I can't see McLaren asking Jenson to let Lewis through but if I was in charge, I have to say that I probably would.
If you did ask Jense to let Lewis through, you might be opening yourself up to some serious morale and inter-team issues and controversy. This is a tough dilema!


It's all academic really - I can't remember the last time Button was ahead of Hamilton in a race when they were in the same pitstop phase of the race.

#48 Kvothe

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:21

Exactly. In reality, I can't see McLaren asking Jenson to let Lewis through but if I was in charge, I have to say that I probably would.
If you did ask Jense to let Lewis through, you might be opening yourself up to some serious morale and inter-team issues and controversy. This is a tough dilema!


Exactly!

#49 Lazy

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:23

Exactly. In reality, I can't see McLaren asking Jenson to let Lewis through but if I was in charge, I have to say that I probably would.
If you did ask Jense to let Lewis through, you might be opening yourself up to some serious morale and inter-team issues and controversy. This is a tough dilema!


I'd say not worth it for 7 points, especially this early in a highly unpredictable season.

Anyway, you don't want to piss off your number one driver for next year ;)

#50 maverick69

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:36

Very tough question - and in normal circumstances absolutely not.

But this championship is probably the tightest on recent memory. The stakes are also monumentally high....... so one must surely back the guy who looks to have by far the best chance (lot's of head-scratching down at Red Bull then!).

...... all I know is that if Whitmarsh gives us an "in hindsight" comment on the matter at the end of the year over the loss of the WDC I would be tempted to jog down to Woking and (metaphorically) throttle the man........