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Sophie's McLaren's choice: What if Jenson was leading a McLaren 1-2 at Hockenheim?


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Poll: Sophie's McLaren's choice: What if Jenson was leading a McLaren 1-2 at Hockenheim? (246 member(s) have cast votes)

Would McLaren ask Jenson to move over?

  1. Yes (44 votes [17.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.89%

  2. No (173 votes [70.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 70.33%

  3. I don't know (29 votes [11.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.79%

Should McLaren ask Jenson to move over?

  1. Yes (122 votes [49.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 49.59%

  2. No (97 votes [39.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.43%

  3. Maybe (27 votes [10.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.98%

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#101 ZooL

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:03

I don't think they would but I think they should

Same.

The team is not configured in a manner to purely existing to win, regardless of what their PR says because they prefer to get the 2 strongest race drivers they can. That constrasts with Montezemolo and Horner are not interested in replacing their #2 drivers with a driver of the calibre of Hamilton, because they go racing with a different philosphy that will statistically increase the probability of their driver winning a WDC.

I do wish McLaren would not be so charitable on track on a Sunday with their 'equality' policy. It isn't the right domain to be thought of as a 'charitable' organisation. It is not Sunday church, and sometimes I think they forget this point of why they are racing on Sunday's. They should stop feeling the need to be seen as giving their drivers an equal opportunity.

A better policy and strategic direction for them would be to ditch the equality policy and bring in team orders (remember these are no longer illegal so comparisons to Ferrari are futile) and if they are overly paranoid about their image then raise run some sort of charity campaign to raise awareness and money. Say like the 1 million faces on a car etc.

In summary, McLaren don't have a winning mentality. Management have not understood that they disadvantage their drivers to beat Alonso and Vettel in rival cars.

Edited by ZooL, 20 July 2012 - 12:07.


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#102 fabr68

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:21

After 2007, it should be clear how drivers are treated at Mclaren, regardless of their probability in winning a WDC.

#103 zk12

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:28

It did already happen in 2008 also on this track, when mclaren asked kova to let ham pass.
talking about 2012: if mclaren thinks that button is not able to fight for the wdc, than they should do it, if they think his capable of doing it this year, then they shouldnt do it.

#104 Juggles

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:42

The list of excuses for last year is long and preposterous but this one is one of the most ridiculous. Jenson was beating him before the title was lost.

And Lewis "am i bovered" about Jenson beating him? Come on.


Obviously that completely depends on when the title was realistically lost and, more importantly, when Hamilton believed the title was lost.

Of course he was "bovered" about it; he just didn't expect it. Hamilton had nothing to prove because no one expected Button to beat him over a season. Button, despite the championship being gone, had everything to prove. I think that showed with their varying levels of focus in the second half of the season.

#105 Disgrace

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:50

What if Jenson was leading a McLaren 1-2 at Hockenheim?

Hamilton would push the KERS and DRS buttons. Issue solved.


Exactly, although the results are unpredictable, the racing is very predictable and overtaking is very easy. This situation is unlikely to arise anyway, as Jenson is currently the most underperforming driver in F1.

#106 Kvothe

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:52

Exactly, although the results are unpredictable, the racing is very predictable and overtaking is very easy. This situation is unlikely to arise anyway, as Jenson is currently the most underperforming driver in F1.


Really?
Two races does not suddenly erase Massa's past three seasons.

#107 Disgrace

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:54

Really?
Two races does not suddenly erase Massa's past three seasons.


Of course it doesn't. That is why I said currently, as Massa has upped his game in the last few races whereas Jenson hasn't. That's just my definition of "currently" though.

Edited by Disgrace, 20 July 2012 - 12:54.


#108 mschumacher7

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:59

Of course it doesn't. That is why I said currently, as Massa has upped his game in the last few races whereas Jenson hasn't. That's just my definition of "currently" though.

:up:

#109 Kvothe

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:03

Of course it doesn't. That is why I said currently, as Massa has upped his game in the last few races whereas Jenson hasn't. That's just my definition of "currently" though.


JB has had similar pace to Lewis in both Valencia and Silverstone, Massa spun in Canada by himself, hasn't won a race, looks no closer to doing s, and the updated Ferrari car is doing him massive favours.

So I would have to say even currently.....nah!

Edited by Kvothe, 20 July 2012 - 13:03.


#110 Juggles

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:06

JB has had similar pace to Lewis in both Valencia and Silverstone, Massa spun in Canada by himself, hasn't won a race, looks no closer to doing s, and the updated Ferrari car is doing him massive favours.

So I would have to say even currently.....nah!


But we expect far more from Button than Massa. Underperformance is relative to expectation.

#111 Kvothe

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:09

But we expect far more from Button than Massa. Underperformance is relative to expectation.


Exactly and with Ferrari having had a front running car since Barcelona where Alonso qualified second, Massa has underperformed relative to my expectation of what a decent driver would have done in that car

Edited by Kvothe, 20 July 2012 - 13:10.


#112 Lazy

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:09

Obviously that completely depends on when the title was realistically lost and, more importantly, when Hamilton believed the title was lost.


Are you saying Lewis would not fight to the very last?

#113 mschumacher7

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:10

Exactly and with Ferrari having had a front running car since Barcelona where Alonso qualified second, Massa has underperformed relative to my expectation of what a decent driver would have done in that car


:confused:

Button is a world champion and has won a race this season - he was underperforming wildly compared to his team mate in Monaco and Canada especially.

#114 Buttoneer

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:14

McLaren say they won't unless one driver is mathematically out of the picture, therefore they shouldn't.

I agree with those who say that this leaves them open to losing the WDC, and admit their right to change this policy. However, that's not what Button likes, nor what he signed up to as his comments on team orders show, so they should adopt the policy for the next driver, or find a way to dump Button early if that's the way they want to go.

#115 Kvothe

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:19

:confused:

Button is a world champion and has won a race this season - he was underperforming wildly compared to his team mate in Monaco and Canada especially.


And Massa has underperformed for the past three years, and had two average races in a front running car, while Jenson has at least matched Lewis after a temporary blip in performance.
What's your point?

#116 gincarnated

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:21

I very much doubt that Button would move over.

A couple years ago Jenson stated that he couldn't care less who won the drivers championship if he were out of it, while lewis said he would want it to be his team mate. That has always stuck with me

#117 mschumacher7

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:22

And Massa has underperformed for the past three years, and had two average races in a front running car, while Jenson has at least matched Lewis after a temporary blip in performance.
What's your point?


No offence, but did you bother reading the preceding posts correctly? A lot is expected from Button, especially since he beat Hamilton last season and he's won a race this season. Him going backwards (i.e in Monaco) comes as quite a shock. On the other hand, if Massa gets obliterated by Alonso it's not really a surprise (i.e not a lot is expected of him).

Furthermore, for the past few races Massa has looked stronger and stronger.

Therefore, Button has underperformed much more than Massa of late.

P.s. might I add, Massa's pace was brilliant in Silverstone. He would've been on the podium (based on pace) had Red Bull not out-smarted Ferrari as usual.

Edited by mschumacher7, 20 July 2012 - 13:24.


#118 Kvothe

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 13:35

No offence, but did you bother reading the preceding posts correctly? A lot is expected from Button, especially since he beat Hamilton last season and he's won a race this season. Him going backwards (i.e in Monaco) comes as quite a shock. On the other hand, if Massa gets obliterated by Alonso it's not really a surprise (i.e not a lot is expected of him).

Furthermore, for the past few races Massa has looked stronger and stronger.

Therefore, Button has underperformed much more than Massa of late.

P.s. might I add, Massa's pace was brilliant in Silverstone. He would've been on the podium (based on pace) had Red Bull not out-smarted Ferrari as usual.


No offence but the previous discussion was based on the last couple of races:

Of course it doesn't. That is why I said currently, as Massa has upped his game in the last few races whereas Jenson hasn't. That's just my definition of "currently" though.


A post which you liked,

and then after I pointed out that Button had matched Lewis in the last couple of races, suggesting his performance in the last few races has been down to the car and not a lack of perfomance, you then moved the goal posts to the last four races.:

:confused:

Button is a world champion and has won a race this season - he was underperforming wildly compared to his team mate in Monaco and Canada especially.


Your certainty that Button has underperformed relative to Massa is misplaced, its obvious that the McLaren has been getting worse, yet at least Button has been able to match Lewis in the last couple of races, ie there's a possibility that even he's upped his game, and it is the car. Massa in a front running car has looked nowhere near getting a victory and its obvious his improvement is more to do with Ferrari's increase in pace as opposed to an improvement in actual performance.

Its hard to argue against someone who can't differentiate car performance from driver performance.

Also I might add that Massa was on the same strategy as Red Bull hence his seemingly good race pace compared to Alonso, but his failure to get past the much slower Michael Schumacher cost him a chance at the podium, just as his spin at turn 1 in Canada (in a front running car) similarly cost him another podium.

Edited by Kvothe, 20 July 2012 - 13:44.


#119 hotstickyslick

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 14:15

Who's Sophie?

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#120 Kvothe

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 14:20

It refers to this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie's_Choice_(novel) (suggesting a difficult choice for McLaren if this situation arose).

Sophie was supposed to be in strikeout but the strikout tags don't work in thread titles.



#121 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:14

I don't think they would but I think they should


I agree with this, if it's the best thing to do then they'd have to just go ahead with it and deal with any issues that may arise after.

However Jenson would fight Lewis quite hard if it did come to that, remember Turkey 2010 when Lewis was told to "save fuel"...

#122 Juggles

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 13:29

So, now the underlying question of this thread doesn't look so fanciful after all. Whether or not it's for a 1-2, Button starts 6th and Hamilton 7th (with Webber's penalty) for tomorrow's race.

Given their pace in the dry it's possible that the two McLarens could be putting pressure on Schumacher for 3rd place after only a few laps. If they manage to get past him that puts them 3-4. If Alonso and Vettel haven't pulled too far ahead but Button is clearly holding Hamilton up then McLaren have an important decision to make.

In Hockenheim 2008 a McLaren driver in 3rd place let his faster teammate through who went on to win the race. That driver went on to win the championship by one point. Let's see what happens tomorrow.

#123 jjcale

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 15:15

... no need to worry about this now :p ... anyway, as they are in traffic, LH will pass JB before the end of the first stint.

#124 MrPodium

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 15:19

... no need to worry about this now :p ... anyway, as they are in traffic, LH will pass JB before the end of the first stint.


And then watch helplessly as a wheelnut falls off in the pits.

#125 Lazy

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 15:29

... no need to worry about this now :p ... anyway, as they are in traffic, LH will pass JB before the end of the first stint.


I'm sure I saw JB passing Pastor some cash in a furtive manner :)

#126 jjcale

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 15:36

I'm sure I saw JB passing Pastor some cash in a furtive manner :)


I saw that too... but did you hear PM say: Me no need your dirty capitalist money ... Me got tens of millions from the poor taxpayers of the Socialist Peoples Republic of Venezuela... they prefer to pay for my seat than to spend it on schools and hospitals.

#127 Lazy

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 15:37

I saw that too... but did you hear PM say: Me no need your dirty capitalist money ... Me got tens of millions from the poor taxpayers of the Socialist Peoples Republic of Venezuela... they prefer to pay for my seat than to spend it on schools and hospitals.


:)


#128 UnspecialEffects

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 15:37

So, now the underlying question of this thread doesn't look so fanciful after all. Whether or not it's for a 1-2, Button starts 6th and Hamilton 7th (with Webber's penalty) for tomorrow's race.

Given their pace in the dry it's possible that the two McLarens could be putting pressure on Schumacher for 3rd place after only a few laps. If they manage to get past him that puts them 3-4. If Alonso and Vettel haven't pulled too far ahead but Button is clearly holding Hamilton up then McLaren have an important decision to make.

In Hockenheim 2008 a McLaren driver in 3rd place let his faster teammate through who went on to win the race. That driver went on to win the championship by one point. Let's see what happens tomorrow.


I think Jenson has earnt a right to fight his corner HOWEVER given the sheer size of his defecit not to Lewis, but the the leader, I think he is all but out of the championship race. Therefore, I think he should start to support Lewis - it will be tough but I think sacrificing points for a potential title is acceptable. I wopuld also like to think Jenson would accept this role.

I think Lewis is now the only hope for a title and Mcclaren need to support him this year. This is how an equal partnership works.



#129 Dalton007

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 15:40

The WCC is more important to the team. Finishing 1 and 2 is imperative tomorrow.

That being said, Jenson shouldn't move over until it's mathematically impossible to win the WDC. I don't care about Lewis's championship anyway.

#130 UnspecialEffects

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 15:44

The WCC is more important to the team. Finishing 1 and 2 is imperative tomorrow.

That being said, Jenson shouldn't move over until it's mathematically impossible to win the WDC. I don't care about Lewis's championship anyway.


Why do you believe this? He is so far behind, the team should recognise he will NOT be winning the championship this year. Jenson is 80 points behind alonso and the probability of him catching that up while lewis doesnt is practically zero. I would hope Mcclaren would value a championship for either driver equally and so would be willing to ask Jenson to recognise his bid is done this year and try to help Lewis get them their next championship.

This would not ruin Button's season and would be in line with trying to get the WCC. The wdc is more likely than the wcc given the gap in points.

#131 Juggles

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 15:48

I think Jenson has earnt a right to fight his corner HOWEVER given the sheer size of his defecit not to Lewis, but the the leader, I think he is all but out of the championship race. Therefore, I think he should start to support Lewis - it will be tough but I think sacrificing points for a potential title is acceptable. I wopuld also like to think Jenson would accept this role.

I think Lewis is now the only hope for a title and Mcclaren need to support him this year. This is how an equal partnership works.


I think it completely depends on the situation tomorrow, and there are some (not all) scenarios in which McLaren should be willing to act. If Button is faster than Hamilton it won't be relevant. If they don't get past Maldonado and Hulkenberg early then it won't be relevant. It will only become the right decision to make if Hamilton is in with a chance of the win because the points gap between 1st and 2nd is so great. Keeping Hamilton boxed behind Button will look idiotic if Alonso and Vettel share first and second between them. The points gap would then start looking insurmountable for Hamilton (although I was encouraged by the dry pace of the car).

#132 Juggles

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 15:58

The WCC is more important to the team. Finishing 1 and 2 is imperative tomorrow.

That being said, Jenson shouldn't move over until it's mathematically impossible to win the WDC. I don't care about Lewis's championship anyway.


Exactly. That's the difference between you and McLaren: you want Button to win and if he can't then I assume you aren't too bothered; McLaren want either of their drivers to win and also want to win the WCC. Button is mathematically in the title race but realistically not. Hamilton is barely in the title race, but has far more of a chance than Button. A 1-2 either way means the same number of WCC points for McLaren. Put all those things together and what is the logical thing to do if Hamilton is stuck behind Button tomorrow?

It's a bit like the Republican presidential nominations. Ron Paul and Newt Gingrich were still mathematically in with a chance of securing the nomination a long time after they had lost any chance of doing so. All it did was stir up tension within the Republican Party and delay their presenting a united front against Obama. Not that I would compare Fernando Alonso to Barack Obama...

#133 jjcale

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 16:59

Exactly. That's the difference between you and McLaren: you want Button to win and if he can't then I assume you aren't too bothered; McLaren want either of their drivers to win and also want to win the WCC. Button is mathematically in the title race but realistically not. Hamilton is barely in the title race, but has far more of a chance than Button. A 1-2 either way means the same number of WCC points for McLaren. Put all those things together and what is the logical thing to do if Hamilton is stuck behind Button tomorrow?

It's a bit like the Republican presidential nominations. Ron Paul and Newt Gingrich were still mathematically in with a chance of securing the nomination a long time after they had lost any chance of doing so. All it did was stir up tension within the Republican Party and delay their presenting a united front against Obama. Not that I would compare Fernando Alonso to Barack Obama...


Ron Paul's gonna be nominated from the convention floor mate... plus Mitt may have to withdraw, what with his SEC filing problem and tax avoidance escapades.

.... and I'm only half joking.

/OT

#134 Seanspeed

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 17:21

Exactly. That's the difference between you and McLaren: you want Button to win and if he can't then I assume you aren't too bothered; McLaren want either of their drivers to win and also want to win the WCC. Button is mathematically in the title race but realistically not. Hamilton is barely in the title race, but has far more of a chance than Button. A 1-2 either way means the same number of WCC points for McLaren. Put all those things together and what is the logical thing to do if Hamilton is stuck behind Button tomorrow?

:up:

Whats interesting is when its not running for 1st and 2nd, but for like 5th and 6th or something. Then the WCC implications are even more justified. They might get the same amount of points if they simply swapped 6th and 5th, but if the guy originally in 6th gets let by and then goes on to get 3rd, then thats 3rd and 6th rather than 5th and 6th.

So it'll be interesting tomorrow to see what Mclaren or Button does in a situation where they're fighting each other.

#135 UnspecialEffects

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 17:35

:up:

Whats interesting is when its not running for 1st and 2nd, but for like 5th and 6th or something. Then the WCC implications are even more justified. They might get the same amount of points if they simply swapped 6th and 5th, but if the guy originally in 6th gets let by and then goes on to get 3rd, then thats 3rd and 6th rather than 5th and 6th.

So it'll be interesting tomorrow to see what Mclaren or Button does in a situation where they're fighting each other.


I think a swap lower down the order wont be a big deal, we already saw that last race. I think a lot of awkwardness will be more avoided as it is likely lewis will qualify ahead of jenson and therefore shouldnt be running directly behind him. I think the only danger would be a hockenheim 2010 situation, which is very possible as jenson can race with lewis on his day if the car is to his liking.

I think its worth remembering jenson is a talented driver - he already proved himself in 2010 and 2011, he doesnt need to do it each year. We all know he is very sensitive - its not a surprise what he's encountering this year and doesnt negate what he has done in the past