Jump to content


Photo

Who is talking to Hulme?


  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#1 ed holly

ed holly
  • Member

  • 387 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 20 July 2012 - 22:49

This is a cropped portion of a photo I bought from Racebears. John Adams ( http://www.racebears.com ) has some terrific shots from this meeting including one of Jim Clark holding and inspecting the Vanwall Trophy which Denny had just won and he still has the laurel wreath around his neck. Jimmy seems as delighted as Denny for the win, showing the great camaraderie of that period.

Does anyone know who the person Denny is talking to. The photo was taken just before Denny's last drive in the works BT6 Formula Junior, which Denny won at Snetterton 28th September 1963.

Posted Image
Shot at 2012-07-20

Edited by ed holly, 20 July 2012 - 22:53.


Advertisement

#2 brucemoxon

brucemoxon
  • Member

  • 1,007 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 21 July 2012 - 00:02

Innes Ireland? John Surtees?




BM

#3 LittleChris

LittleChris
  • Member

  • 3,704 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:06

Not Surtees or Ireland in F Junior in 1963, but look at those hands / paws - NOW I know how Denny got named The Bear !!

#4 wagons46

wagons46
  • Member

  • 316 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:29

Frank Gardner ??

NO , Rule him out , he was in Canada racing a Brabham BT5 on the same day.


Edited by wagons46, 21 July 2012 - 03:45.


#5 ed holly

ed holly
  • Member

  • 387 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:00

Someone said could be Arundell - but he wasn't entered for the race.

Here is the programme for this race, no guarantees though that it was another FJ driver. Note what looks like a rip in the overall's, of who we are trying to work out who it is, near the ankle.

Posted Image
Shot at 2012-07-20

#6 Stephen W

Stephen W
  • Member

  • 15,555 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 21 July 2012 - 08:34

Could be the driver of the MRP Lola - Toby Nominated

#7 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,576 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:03

Not Surtees or Ireland in F Junior in 1963, but look at those hands / paws - NOW I know how Denny got named The Bear !!


I don't recall Denny's hands being especially large, but they were impressively powerful. I remember a time in the factory at Colnbrook, we needed some strips of L72 bending for some lash-up brackets to hold something in position until we got it back to Specialised Mouldings to do a proper job. Denny bent these strips easily with his bare hands, no-one else there could do it, I didn't even try. All the more remarkable, since the backs of his hands were still in a dreadful state from the fire at Indianapolis some months earlier, just an angry mass of pink scar tissue. Apart from his talents as a driver, Denny could probably have earned a living on the stage with a strong man act.


#8 nicanary

nicanary
  • Member

  • 691 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:44

If the TBN for the third MRP Lola was Dickie Attwood? Looks like him.

#9 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,502 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 21 July 2012 - 11:29

TBN was later nominated as David Hobbs.

#10 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,524 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 21 July 2012 - 19:12

Try as I might, I cannot open the picture in question. Which is frustrating...

DCN

#11 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,576 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 21 July 2012 - 19:40

Try as I might, I cannot open the picture in question. Which is frustrating...

DCN


Clearly an example of racing ephemera, it was there earlier, but now it's gone.


#12 AAGR

AAGR
  • Member

  • 397 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 21 July 2012 - 19:43

Try as I might, I cannot open the picture in question. Which is frustrating...

DCN


Me neither,

AAGR

#13 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,898 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 21 July 2012 - 20:42

Clearly an example of racing ephemera, it was there earlier, but now it's gone.

It was a fair haired bloke in a turquoise race suit with a torn leg and Marks and Sparks socks.

If that is any help....

#14 Jerry Entin

Jerry Entin
  • Member

  • 5,920 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 21 July 2012 - 21:41

Forum member Doug Nye thinks: " thinning hair? Looks to me like Mike Costin - the Cos of Cosworth.
But I cannot be certain."

Best regards -

Doug


#15 raceannouncer2003

raceannouncer2003
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 22 July 2012 - 00:10

Results here:

http://formula2.net/FJ63_GB63.htm

Vince H.

#16 ed holly

ed holly
  • Member

  • 387 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 22 July 2012 - 01:35


I have reloaded the photo at a lower res in the hope that it fixes the problem where it will not open on some computers.

Posted Image
Shot at 2012-07-21

#17 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 9,394 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 22 July 2012 - 07:19

Definitely not Pete Arundell, too chubby no cigarette.

#18 ellrosso

ellrosso
  • Member

  • 1,616 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 22 July 2012 - 09:54

Denny did a lot of heavy manual labour for his dad's business in NZ as a young bloke. Clive Hulme (VC recipient) was a pretty hard taskmaster by all accounts and Denny worked his tail off - he would have been pretty strong and fit from it I'd imagine.

#19 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,576 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 22 July 2012 - 10:36

Denny did a lot of heavy manual labour for his dad's business in NZ as a young bloke. Clive Hulme (VC recipient) was a pretty hard taskmaster by all accounts and Denny worked his tail off - he would have been pretty strong and fit from it I'd imagine.


That's true, his handshake was even stronger than AJ Foyt's. I remember a feature on Denny in Road & Track many years ago, in the days when it was a worthwhile magazine. Denny recounted how his dad & he used to have races unloading sand from trucks in the blazing sun. He told how they used to grind their shovels in order to get perfect balance and flexibility. I'm sure that his upper body strength was a factor in his success with those CanAm monsters, no power steering back then of course.


Advertisement

#20 Tony Robinson

Tony Robinson
  • New Member

  • 14 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:23

Mike Spence

#21 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 9,394 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:37

Mike Spence


IIRC Spence was slimline with a lot more hair. Costin seems more likely, and I'd hate to argue with DN...

#22 humphries

humphries
  • Member

  • 931 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:52

May be David Prophet, fellow Brabham driver.

#23 pete53

pete53
  • Member

  • 724 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 24 July 2012 - 11:51

He may not necessarily have been racing in the FJ event - there were two other races - the Autosport 3 hours and a Touring Car race. Also, although he appears to be wearing racing overalls, he could possibly be a mechanic.

Having said that I still have no idea who he may be.

#24 f1steveuk

f1steveuk
  • Member

  • 3,588 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:06

Assuming of course it is a driver!!??

#25 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,524 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 24 July 2012 - 21:00

Still looks rather like Mike Costin to me - representing Cosworth Engineering at the event. But the greenish tinge to his overalls do look UDT/BRPish. To me there is NO way that is Mike Spence.

DCN

#26 Peter Darley

Peter Darley
  • Member

  • 286 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 25 July 2012 - 20:51

[quote name='Doug Nye' date='Jul 24 2012, 22:00' post='5842852']
Still looks rather like Mike Costin to me - representing Cosworth Engineering at the event. But the greenish tinge to his overalls do look UDT/BRPish. To me there is NO way that is Mike Spence.

DCN
[/quote

Agree with Doug re. Mike Costin and certainly not Mike Spence, whom I knew. The colour of the overalls could be down to colour degradation of the photo.


#27 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,502 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 26 July 2012 - 10:18

I looked up the Autosport report of this race. Brian Hart had an experimental Cosworth engine in his Lotus, said to develop 120bhp. This would explain Mike Costin's presence. I wondered why Cosworth would produce an experimental Junior engine when the formula was being scrapped in a few weeks. Then I looked at the following week's Motoring News. Mike Costin drove Hart's car to victory in a Junior race at Brands Hatch. A picture shows the engine to have downdraught carburettors. A prototype SCA?

#28 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,576 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 26 July 2012 - 11:09

Agree with Doug re. Mike Costin and certainly not Mike Spence, whom I knew. The colour of the overalls could be down to colour degradation of the photo.


That seems unlikely to me looking at the pic overall, probably the result of much wear (and a small tear), and lots and lots of washing machine action.


#29 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,052 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:53

Originally posted by Roger Clark
.....Mike Costin drove Hart's car to victory in a Junior race at Brands Hatch. A picture shows the engine to have downdraught carburettors. A prototype SCA?


Not after the Monza business...

The SCA was a long way from eligible for FJr. Even modified porting to give downdraught inlets wasn't allowed... or wasn't it a Junior race?

#30 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,502 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 26 July 2012 - 13:39

Not after the Monza business...

The SCA was a long way from eligible for FJr. Even modified porting to give downdraught inlets wasn't allowed... or wasn't it a Junior race?


Posted Image
Scan 16 by Roger Clark1, on Flickr

From Motor Racing magazine December 1963.

#31 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,052 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 26 July 2012 - 23:11

But it's still a standard casting, Roger...

That was my point. It can't have been a 'prototype' if it still used the Ford casting, even though it might have been considered a development heading that way.

#32 wenoopy

wenoopy
  • Member

  • 648 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:26

That seems unlikely to me looking at the pic overall, probably the result of much wear (and a small tear), and lots and lots of washing machine action.


Is that really a tear? It looks more like a gusset, or a gore, or even a placket, which opens to allow the wearer to pull the trouser leg on over his (big) foot and then to close again to prevent nasty up-the-trouser draughts.

Perhaps publication of the whole picture might put it in a better context for identification purposes.

Stu

Edited by wenoopy, 28 July 2012 - 01:27.


#33 SJ Lambert

SJ Lambert
  • Member

  • 5,343 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:18

Posted Image
Scan 16 by Roger Clark1, on Flickr

From Motor Racing magazine December 1963.


Graham Robson's "Cosworth, The Search for Power" lists the Mk17 as an 1100cc FJ engine in 1964, as a development of the Mk11. Especially as the article containing the pic calls it a FJ and the iron head being evident then it is likely an early one of those (not that there were that many of them at all...........)

Cheers

James

Edited by SJ Lambert, 28 July 2012 - 02:20.


#34 ed holly

ed holly
  • Member

  • 387 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:18

Thanks to everyone who has looked at this photo and replied.

Consensus seems that it might be Mike Costin, but then again maybe not.

cheers

Ed

#35 Graham Gauld

Graham Gauld
  • Member

  • 1,221 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:51

Thanks to everyone who has looked at this photo and replied.

Consensus seems that it might be Mike Costin, but then again maybe not.

cheers

Ed


ED

ITS MIKE COSTIN

#36 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,524 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 12 August 2012 - 17:48

ED

ITS MIKE COSTIN


I'm also pretty confident it is indeed Mike.

DCN

#37 elansprint72

elansprint72
  • Member

  • 4,027 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 12 August 2012 - 21:55

10/10 for the thread title, btw.  ;)

#38 GMACKIE

GMACKIE
  • Member

  • 13,042 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 12 August 2012 - 22:03

10/10 for the thread title, btw. ;)

Same here...... very clever, Ed.


#39 ed holly

ed holly
  • Member

  • 387 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 12 August 2012 - 22:36

Guys,

The photo at the beginning of this thread is from John Adams at John@Racebears.com who advertised a number of photos of Denny on Ebay, all of which I bought. It is terrific to be able to have these photos all these years later and I thank John and all the other photo retailers for their time and trouble in making these available for those interested all these years later.

I am very lucky to own the car that is the subject of the photo and to be able to race it, now as a 1.5 Australian (and New Zealand) National Formula car as it has been since the end of its Formula Junior career. ie end of 1963 till 2012>. The photo of what we now know is Mike Costin was taken just before Denny's last drive of the car and the photo here is of the result of that race. I have added the copyright details to the photo as I do not own these. It shows that there must have existed a great camaraderie amongst the top drivers of the time, as although Denny was pretty much a Formula Junior driver till then, although he had driven F1 during 1963, it must have been realized that his progression to then next form of motorsport wasn't far away. The expression on Jimmy Clark's face shows he was obviously very pleased for Denny.

On another note, I am presently working on the spare old bodywork I got from Ian McDonald when I bought the car. I intend to paint this bodywork into the "works" Brabham colours that Denny drove with all that last season of FJ. When I stripped the old black Levis and Stone paint off the undertray, I not only found the "sick" green Mildren colour but the base under that was the Brabham "works" green. It has had a few repairs over the years, and I had to grind away quite some stress cracks, and have now tissued over that. The nose was not the original one however, at least it didn't show any green. But the undertray is I am sure the original, which is terrific. Obviously with a twincam rather than a FJ 105E, the tail will be different, but essentially the car will look like it was in Denny's hands. The main driver of all this is to take the car to NZ next year for the "tribute to Denny Hulme Festival"

So thank you all who have replied to the thread, as you can tell I have a great fondness for FJ-9-63 and for all those that drove her, Hulme, Gardner, Smith, Levis, Stone and Alexander.

Ed

Posted Image


Advertisement

#40 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,576 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:06

The Frank Matich interview in the current issue of Motor Sport is interesting in that Frank rated Denny very highly as a driver, not quite at the Clark level of course, but ahead of Hill and Surtees. The cameraderie of those times really comes across in Frank's piece.