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Sebastian Vettel Thread Part II


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#1 Mandzipop

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 20:15

Old topic closed due to technical reasons. Please continue.

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#2 olliek88

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 20:31

Old topic closed due to technical reasons. Please continue.


............going round in circles.

#3 sosidge

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 20:37

Well, may as well get the new thread started in a positive way...

Congrats on your pole today Seb!

#4 joshb

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 20:40

why do we need a 2nd thread?



#5 sosidge

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 20:42

why do we need a 2nd thread?


I believe that threads over 100 pages make a heavy demand on the server, so they now get locked.

#6 Zava

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 20:46

damn, part 2 :(
nevermind. german football victory for today, I'd love a Vettel win for tomorrow. :)

#7 DutchCruijff

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 20:52

GDOAT receives the greatest honour of all, a second thread.

#8 Mandzipop

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 20:54

I believe that threads over 100 pages make a heavy demand on the server, so they now get locked.


It is related to the amount of posts per thread. But you are correct.

On topic that was a fantastic pole from Seb. Hard to believe that if Seb gets 2 more poles this season (not an unrealistic expectation), he'll rank as the 3rd highest pole-sitter in F1 history, and he is only 24. :eek:

#9 f1fastestlap

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:01

On topic that was a fantastic pole from Seb. Hard to believe that if Seb gets 2 more poles this season (not an unrealistic expectation), he'll rank as the 3rd highest pole-sitter in F1 history, and he is only 24. :eek:


That's what happens when you have the best car for 2 seasons on a roll...

#10 olliek88

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:05

That's what happens when you have the best car for 2 seasons on a roll...


And you are one of the quickest drivers who now days makes minimal mistakes.

#11 Afterburner

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:07

I could only smile after he finished the lap today. Happy to see him on pole, and if he becomes this year's first repeat winner, it will bode well for his championship hopes. Just awesome. Rock 'n roll, Seb! :D

#12 fatd

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:10

That's what happens when you have the best car for 2 seasons on a roll...


And how many more seasons exactly will it take for people to stop pointing at the car and start acknowledging the driver himself? Seriously, I'm curious.

#13 f1fastestlap

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:15

And how many more seasons exactly will it take for people to stop pointing at the car and start acknowledging the driver himself? Seriously, I'm curious.


Yeah, was the same driver who qualified 6th in Australia, 5th in Malaysia, 11th in China, 1st in Bahrain, 7th in Spain, 9th in Monaco. Bravo. That's one might driver you got there... :lol:

#14 DutchCruijff

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:15

And how many more seasons exactly will it take for people to stop pointing at the car and start acknowledging the driver himself? Seriously, I'm curious.

When we're able to certify that he is able to land pole positions in a car significantly off the pace a la Schumacher & Alonso.

#15 mursuka80

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:18

When we're able to certify that he is able to land pole positions in a car significantly off the pace a la Schumacher & Alonso].


And when is that?

Edited by mursuka80, 09 June 2012 - 21:19.


#16 DutchCruijff

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:21

And when is that?

"Yeah, was the same driver who qualified 6th in Australia, 5th in Malaysia, 11th in China, 1st in Bahrain, 7th in Spain, 9th in Monaco."

Boy didn't do too well there.

#17 Afterburner

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:22

And how many more seasons exactly will it take for people to stop pointing at the car and start acknowledging the driver himself? Seriously, I'm curious.

Why does it matter? Do you think he cares what other people think of him? Seb wants championships, and he doesn't care if he wins them in the best car or the worst--I say more power to him for that. You can all argue over who the best driver is; at the end of the day, I'm content with Seb's mindset and confident he'll get what he wants by the time he retires. :wave:

#18 fatd

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:22

Yeah, was the same driver who qualified 6th in Australia, 5th in Malaysia, 11th in China, 1st in Bahrain, 7th in Spain, 9th in Monaco. Bravo. That's one might driver you got there... :lol:


But if he consistently qualifies 1st and 2nd and maybe at worst 4th you'll point at the car yet again, won't you?
I'm not asking you to acknowledge him as the best driver on the grid.. I myself am not yet convinced of that either. But at least do give him some rewards of what he achieved.. it's not always his car all the time.

#19 fatd

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:26

Why does it matter? Do you think he cares what other people think of him? Seb wants championships, and he doesn't care if he wins them in the best car or the worst--I say more power to him for that. You can all argue over who the best driver is; at the end of the day, I'm content with Seb's mindset and confident he'll get what he wants by the time he retires. :wave:


He won't care.. he'll leave it for the fans to care about that :lol: Nevermind I'm just curious... I'm not saying it's important.

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#20 mursuka80

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:27

"Yeah, was the same driver who qualified 6th in Australia, 5th in Malaysia, 11th in China, 1st in Bahrain, 7th in Spain, 9th in Monaco."

Boy didn't do too well there.


I dont see an answer, so try again.

#21 DutchCruijff

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:30

I dont see an answer, so try again.

I didn't even see a coherent question, so elaborate or are you expecting me to be some sort of a psychic?

#22 mursuka80

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:35

I didn't even see a coherent question, so elaborate or are you expecting me to be some sort of a psychic?


You are giving this years qualy results as a proof that he isnt all that, but if he locks the front row all the time, then you people would praise the car. 32 poles is a great achievement regardless what car he has driven.

#23 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 21:46

That's what happens when you have the best car for 2 seasons on a roll...

Well 2 and half seasons.

#24 apoka

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 22:04

Great lap today! Let's hope for a good race.

Fortunately no failed setup experiments this time.


#25 Watkins74

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 23:45

Fantastic effort by Sebastian today to take pole. Congratulations to him.

#26 Alarcon

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 23:45

That's what happens when you have the best car for 2 seasons on a roll...



As Senna or Jim Clark had... isn´it?

Webber, considered one of the fastest driver over 1 lap, had the same car as him and he did 10 poles...

#27 SCUDmissile

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 23:51

Vettel is a great qualifier, however it is easier for a car advantage or on the limit driving these days, as there is no refuelling.
Back before refuelling was banned, there could be a surprise pole because someone had done a glory run, or something, so maybe a little difficult to compare with previous records.

But I won't take away from a fabulous pole today.

#28 Romulan

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 23:51

And how many more seasons exactly will it take for people to stop pointing at the car and start acknowledging the driver himself? Seriously, I'm curious.


For 2010 & 2011, Sebastian Vettel was the best driver in Formula 1. Any fan of any driver can shuffle the 'would've-could've-should've' deck of cards to get the hand they so desire. You and I can argue that Mickey Mouse -- if it weren't for his high drag appendages -- was the best driver in the universe.

Given the best teams want the best drivers, should we be surprised when Red Bull Racing continues to choose Sebastian Vettel as its #1?

https://en.wikipedia...7_championships

#29 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 23:51

german football victory for today

I hadn't seen the match yet.

Thanks a lot. :down:

#30 Alarcon

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 23:52

Yeah, was the same driver who qualified 6th in Australia, 5th in Malaysia, 11th in China, 1st in Bahrain, 7th in Spain, 9th in Monaco. Bravo. That's one might driver you got there... :lol:



The same driver despite he recog. he still feels uncomfortable with the car... achieved 2 pole position so far over 7 races, the same amount of poles as Lewis Hamilton who had a fast car in every GP.

The same driver he´s being the driver with most number of pole position from 3 years in a row.

The same driver did a pole with a TR.

You need more? Then go to the stats.

Sorry if his "vettelesque lap" from today hurts you, however it is his benchmark. 32 benchmarks to be exactly. :lol:

#31 Wlleiotl

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 23:53

you need to fall backwards in the race to be known as a great qualifier, so seb will never be given that credit

much better to move forwards in the race, like he has done again and again

#32 Alarcon

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 23:55

But if he consistently qualifies 1st and 2nd and maybe at worst 4th you'll point at the car yet again, won't you?
I'm not asking you to acknowledge him as the best driver on the grid.. I myself am not yet convinced of that either. But at least do give him some rewards of what he achieved.. it's not always his car all the time.


:up:

Well said, mate! Very clever post, however you need someone able to understand it... and that´s hard to find.

#33 TheBunk

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 23:56

I will admit it, and you might not have guessed, but Im a big big fan of Sebastian Vettel.

Long time since ive seen such a talent, raw pace and just a very complete driver.

#34 choyothe

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 03:09

It wouldn't be a Vettel thread without haters taking over from the start, now wouldn't it? :rotfl:

Taking poles without the fastest car? He did that about 5 times last year. You guys must've missed them all.



#35 Juggles

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 03:10

For 2010 & 2011, Sebastian Vettel was the best driver in Formula 1. Any fan of any driver can shuffle the 'would've-could've-should've' deck of cards to get the hand they so desire. You and I can argue that Mickey Mouse -- if it weren't for his high drag appendages -- was the best driver in the universe.

Given the best teams want the best drivers, should we be surprised when Red Bull Racing continues to choose Sebastian Vettel as its #1?

https://en.wikipedia...7_championships


If by best you mean 'got the most out of their machinery' then I disagree with 2010. Of the frontrunners I believe Alonso and Hamilton both maximised their results more than Vettel, despite his mechanical failures. Both of those two drivers were in inferior machinery so had to drive on the limit constantly to keep the pressure on. Hamilton made one mistake all year (Monza) and I still regard that as his best season. Alonso made a few smaller mistakes at the start of the season but his second half was the epitome of result maximisation. The right man won the championship in 2010 because Vettel lost more points than anyone through car failures, but he made it harder than it needed to be with his mistakes in Turkey, Hungary and Belgium.

Vettel was definitely the best driver in F1 in 2011 (again, of the frontrunners, impossible to judge lower down the order), he had a very good car but his consistency was unbelievable. I've said it before and I'll say it again - just because Vettel made it look easy it doesn't mean that it was.

On the driver vs car debate in qualifying, it's impossible to tell who drove better today out of Vettel and Hamilton. Someone posted above that Vettel needs to grab pole in an inferior car like "Alonso or Schumacher," but that's a ridiculous argument. All you can is maximise the performance the car is capable of. For all we know Vettel has got more out of his car than any other driver in many qualifying sessions over the last few years.

From their careers so far and their amazing qualifying results, I don't believe there is much of a gap between Hamilton and Vettel in qualifying. Therefore when Vettel beats Hamilton by 0.3 seconds, as in Canada, or when Hamilton beats Vettel by 0.4 seconds, as in Malaysia, it leads me to believe that a lot of the gap is down to the car. The fact that Vettel now has 32 pole positions is not evidence that Vettel is faster than Hamilton. It is just evidence that the Vettel-Red Bull package has been faster than the Hamilton-McLaren package over the last few years. The only way we will ever know is if they become teammates, and even then there will be caveats. Personally my money would be on Hamilton, but my word it would be close.

#36 choyothe

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 03:30

It's a ridiculous argument anyway since neither of those drivers are famous of getting poles on inferior cars, especially Alonso.

#37 bourbon

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 03:30

SEBASTIAN VETTEL 2.0 - 2012 - I'm Lovin' it! :D

Congratulations Sebi on a Brilliant Pole! Keep it up :up:

Edited by bourbon, 10 June 2012 - 03:31.


#38 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 03:51

you need to fall backwards in the race to be known as a great qualifier, so seb will never be given that credit
much better to move forwards in the race, like he has done again and again

They don't give out points on Saturday.

But given the fact that Sebastian has never finished lower than his qualifying positions this year, barring any incidents on the 1st turn, I really fancy his chance for the win tomorrow.

It will be 40C track temperature on Sunday. Not looking too good for McLaren.

#39 Juggles

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 03:55

They don't give out points on Saturday.

But given the fact that Sebastian has never finished lower than his qualifying positions this year, barring any incidents on the 1st turn, I really fancy his chance for the win tomorrow.

It will be 40C track temperature on Sunday. Not looking too good for McLaren.


He finished 11th in Malaysia after starting 5th. Apart from his impressive pole and win in Bahrain though it would have been fairly embarrassing had he finished below his qualifying position.

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#40 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 04:07

If by best you mean 'got the most out of their machinery' then I disagree with 2010. Of the frontrunners I believe Alonso and Hamilton both maximised their results more than Vettel, despite his mechanical failures. Both of those two drivers were in inferior machinery so had to drive on the limit constantly to keep the pressure on. Hamilton made one mistake all year (Monza) and I still regard that as his best season. Alonso made a few smaller mistakes at the start of the season but his second half was the epitome of result maximisation. The right man won the championship in 2010 because Vettel lost more points than anyone through car failures, but he made it harder than it needed to be with his mistakes in Turkey, Hungary and Belgium.

2010 was a breakthrough season for Sebastian. He never led the WDC standings during the whole year, other than on the very last day. His teammate was leading the championship with 4 GPs remaining, but got into a freak mountain biking incident before the Japanese GP. He required cortizone pain killing shots in 2 subsequent GPs and his forms took a dive. Lewis was leading the championship after Spa, but made a big mistake in the subsequent GP at Monza. Alonso was the most consistent driver of all and should have won the championship but in the last GP in Abu Dhabi, his engineers made a bad strategic call to pit and release him behind Petrov just to unnecessarily cover Webber's pit stop. Vettel took the title when he blitzed the last 4 GPs by winning 3 of them despite retiring due to an engine failure while leading the race in Korea.

It was an exciting season, one that could have made Alonso a 3 time WDC.

#41 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 04:14

It wouldn't be a Vettel thread without haters taking over from the start, now wouldn't it? :rotfl:

Taking poles without the fastest car? He did that about 5 times last year. You guys must've missed them all.

I hope he wins it this year just to shut up some of his usual detractors on this forum.

The only downside is that the race will be at 2am in my time zone. :mad:

#42 Romulan

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 05:41

I hope he wins it this year just to shut up some of his usual detractors on this forum.

The only downside is that the race will be at 2am in my time zone. :mad:


The sad truth is, insofar as Sebastian's detractors are concerned, it won't matter if he makes it 3 WDC's in-a-row. They'll continue to tell us it's the car and not the driver.

Funny, I don't do 2am anymore myself. :stoned:

Edited by Romulan, 10 June 2012 - 05:47.


#43 Zava

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 05:44

I hadn't seen the match yet.

Thanks a lot. :down:

meh, I'm really sorry :well:
if I can make it up to you with this, it isn't really worth watching, so you didn't lose much with my spoiler.

(if I made things even worse with that, then FML :lol: )

#44 Alarcon

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 06:28

If by best you mean 'got the most out of their machinery' then I disagree with 2010. Of the frontrunners I believe Alonso and Hamilton both maximised their results more than Vettel, despite his mechanical failures. Both of those two drivers were in inferior machinery so had to drive on the limit constantly to keep the pressure on. Hamilton made one mistake all year (Monza) and I still regard that as his best season. Alonso made a few smaller mistakes at the start of the season but his second half was the epitome of result maximisation. The right man won the championship in 2010 because Vettel lost more points than anyone through car failures, but he made it harder than it needed to be with his mistakes in Turkey, Hungary and Belgium.

Vettel was definitely the best driver in F1 in 2011 (again, of the frontrunners, impossible to judge lower down the order), he had a very good car but his consistency was unbelievable. I've said it before and I'll say it again - just because Vettel made it look easy it doesn't mean that it was.

On the driver vs car debate in qualifying, it's impossible to tell who drove better today out of Vettel and Hamilton. Someone posted above that Vettel needs to grab pole in an inferior car like "Alonso or Schumacher," but that's a ridiculous argument. All you can is maximise the performance the car is capable of. For all we know Vettel has got more out of his car than any other driver in many qualifying sessions over the last few years.

From their careers so far and their amazing qualifying results, I don't believe there is much of a gap between Hamilton and Vettel in qualifying. Therefore when Vettel beats Hamilton by 0.3 seconds, as in Canada, or when Hamilton beats Vettel by 0.4 seconds, as in Malaysia, it leads me to believe that a lot of the gap is down to the car. The fact that Vettel now has 32 pole positions is not evidence that Vettel is faster than Hamilton. It is just evidence that the Vettel-Red Bull package has been faster than the Hamilton-McLaren package over the last few years. The only way we will ever know is if they become teammates, and even then there will be caveats. Personally my money would be on Hamilton, but my word it would be close.



Well, very ballanced post! :up:

Imo I will say Vettel is slightly faster than Lewis over 1 lap and that´s because, when both driver got the car to achieve the pole (last season in a lot of races or even this season), I mean when they fight head to head, Vettel took the pole on the 90%. And there is a lot of people inside F1 thinks the same (of course that still doesn´t proof anything). And my point is Vettel is able to do deliver this sheer speed lap under the maximum pressure without any mistake all the time while Lewis isn´t.

Of course that´s a particular feeling and as you well pointed we can´t know the difference between them because they drive different cars. As you, all we think both are the fastest driver in F1 and we are glad to enjoy them. For a Vettel fan is a proud Vettel achieved 32 poles... with guys like Hamilton, Rosberg, Alonso on the track. That´s why he will have the glory when the time will remember him.

#45 Alarcon

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 06:33

2010 was a breakthrough season for Sebastian. He never led the WDC standings during the whole year, other than on the very last day. His teammate was leading the championship with 4 GPs remaining, but got into a freak mountain biking incident before the Japanese GP. He required cortizone pain killing shots in 2 subsequent GPs and his forms took a dive. Lewis was leading the championship after Spa, but made a big mistake in the subsequent GP at Monza. Alonso was the most consistent driver of all and should have won the championship but in the last GP in Abu Dhabi, his engineers made a bad strategic call to pit and release him behind Petrov just to unnecessarily cover Webber's pit stop. Vettel took the title when he blitzed the last 4 GPs by winning 3 of them despite retiring due to an engine failure while leading the race in Korea.

It was an exciting season, one that could have made Alonso a 3 time WDC.



Are you serious?

Alonso at Australia 2010: mistake
Alonso at China 2010: mistake (stupid)
Alonso at Monaco 2010: mistake
Alonso at Silverstone 2010: mistake
Alonso at Valencia 2010: mistake (Koba passed him in the last lap after he made a mistake on the corner)
Alonso at Spa 2010: mistake
Alonso at Abu Dhabi: unable to pass a slower car when it matters in the most important moment.

And by the way don´t forget Alonso achieved 2 victories at Bahrein and Korea after Vettel issues and 1 victory at Hockenheim after illegal team order...

But maybe the team had the fault, just as always on "Alonso´s way"... :lol:

The 2010 final result was the most fair result ever.

Edited by Alarcon, 10 June 2012 - 06:38.


#46 DILLIGAF

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 07:12

Fantastic effort by Sebastian today to take pole. Congratulations to him.


+1

Even his first flying lap in Q3 would have been good enough for pole. Looking forward to a cracking race.

#47 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:08

+1

Even his first flying lap in Q3 would have been good enough for pole. Looking forward to a cracking race.

He did the right thing by going for the 2nd hot lap in Q3, even though that means he does not have any fresh sets of options left for the race. Lewis was snapping at his first time, cutting it too close for my liking. Anyway, because there is not much difference between options and primes here, I think Vettel and Red Bull would execute a 2 stopper - 1 stint of options to start with, and 2 stints on NEW primes.

BTW, here's Vettel pole lap in Canada 2012 GP. He used most if not all of his KERS on the back straight, struggling to reach 316kph at the speed trap - the lowest speed in qualifying of all 24 competitors.



#48 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:10

Are you serious?

Alonso at Australia 2010: mistake
Alonso at China 2010: mistake (stupid)
Alonso at Monaco 2010: mistake
Alonso at Silverstone 2010: mistake
Alonso at Valencia 2010: mistake (Koba passed him in the last lap after he made a mistake on the corner)
Alonso at Spa 2010: mistake
Alonso at Abu Dhabi: unable to pass a slower car when it matters in the most important moment.

And by the way don´t forget Alonso achieved 2 victories at Bahrein and Korea after Vettel issues and 1 victory at Hockenheim after illegal team order...

But maybe the team had the fault, just as always on "Alonso´s way"... :lol:

The 2010 final result was the most fair result ever.

I did not say that Vettel did not deserve the 2010's title. He was the most consistent performer when it truly mattered, and even a 25pt setback due to an engine failure in Korea did not stop him from sealing the championship.

But the fact remains that Ferrari strategists screwed up Alonso's pit strategies at Abu Dhabi, which could have made Alonso a 3-time WDC back then.

#49 DILLIGAF

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:16

BTW, here's Vettel pole lap in Canada 2012 GP. He used most if not all of his KERS on the back straight, struggling to reach 316kph at the speed trap - the lowest speed in qualifying of all 24 competitors.


The lack of straight line speed would be RBR's main concern at this track. Seb needs to get a good start & 1+ second gap before DRS comes in or he'll be a sitting duck for Hamilton/Alonso.


#50 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:27

If by best you mean 'got the most out of their machinery' then I disagree with 2010. Of the frontrunners I believe Alonso and Hamilton both maximised their results more than Vettel, despite his mechanical failures. Both of those two drivers were in inferior machinery so had to drive on the limit constantly to keep the pressure on. Hamilton made one mistake all year (Monza) and I still regard that as his best season. Alonso made a few smaller mistakes at the start of the season but his second half was the epitome of result maximisation. The right man won the championship in 2010 because Vettel lost more points than anyone through car failures, but he made it harder than it needed to be with his mistakes in Turkey, Hungary and Belgium.

Vettel was definitely the best driver in F1 in 2011 (again, of the frontrunners, impossible to judge lower down the order), he had a very good car but his consistency was unbelievable. I've said it before and I'll say it again - just because Vettel made it look easy it doesn't mean that it was.

On the driver vs car debate in qualifying, it's impossible to tell who drove better today out of Vettel and Hamilton. Someone posted above that Vettel needs to grab pole in an inferior car like "Alonso or Schumacher," but that's a ridiculous argument. All you can is maximise the performance the car is capable of. For all we know Vettel has got more out of his car than any other driver in many qualifying sessions over the last few years.

From their careers so far and their amazing qualifying results, I don't believe there is much of a gap between Hamilton and Vettel in qualifying. Therefore when Vettel beats Hamilton by 0.3 seconds, as in Canada, or when Hamilton beats Vettel by 0.4 seconds, as in Malaysia, it leads me to believe that a lot of the gap is down to the car. The fact that Vettel now has 32 pole positions is not evidence that Vettel is faster than Hamilton. It is just evidence that the Vettel-Red Bull package has been faster than the Hamilton-McLaren package over the last few years. The only way we will ever know is if they become teammates, and even then there will be caveats. Personally my money would be on Hamilton, but my word it would be close.


Superb post!!

I do think it would be close if they were in the same team, but I feel Hamilton would have the upper hand - particularly given how consistently fast he has been this year compared to Vettel. Unfortunately, some of Vettel's fans feel the need to argue that he is the best qualifier since Senna, but until we can get a direct comparison with him coming up against either Hamilton or Alonso, we will never know how many of his 32 poles are thanks to the car.