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Sebastian Vettel Thread Part II


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#51 jamiegc

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:44

The lack of straight line speed would be RBR's main concern at this track. Seb needs to get a good start & 1+ second gap before DRS comes in or he'll be a sitting duck for Hamilton/Alonso.


Personally I don't think drs will be as bad here as last year with the single shortened run.

As for the pole lap, little lock up and run wide into the hairpin so he could've quite possibly gone even faster.

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#52 joshb

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:46

He did the right thing by going for the 2nd hot lap in Q3, even though that means he does not have any fresh sets of options left for the race. Lewis was snapping at his first time, cutting it too close for my liking. Anyway, because there is not much difference between options and primes here, I think Vettel and Red Bull would execute a 2 stopper - 1 stint of options to start with, and 2 stints on NEW primes.

BTW, here's Vettel pole lap in Canada 2012 GP. He used most if not all of his KERS on the back straight, struggling to reach 316kph at the speed trap - the lowest speed in qualifying of all 24 competitors.


still slowest in the traps???
Its better than Friday when Seb was maxing out at 310-312kph
I don't understand how they went from being so slow in the last sector to being so good. It can't simply be down to lengthening the gears slightly

#53 joshb

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:48

I did not say that Vettel did not deserve the 2010's title. He was the most consistent performer when it truly mattered, and even a 25pt setback due to an engine failure in Korea did not stop him from sealing the championship.

But the fact remains that Ferrari strategists screwed up Alonso's pit strategies at Abu Dhabi, which could have made Alonso a 3-time WDC back then.


Wha bugs me is that people simply put Alonso's failure to win in 2010 down to that bad strategy call.

They forget the several Alonso mistakes (way more than he normally makes) and the engine failure in Malaysia (the last car failure DNF he suffered!)


#54 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 10:07

still slowest in the traps???Its better than Friday when Seb was maxing out at 310-312kph
I don't understand how they went from being so slow in the last sector to being so good. It can't simply be down to lengthening the gears slightly

Yup.
It was 311.6kph in FP1, 312.3kph in FP2, 315.9kph in FP3 and 316.0kph in Qualifying.

There is a significant progress from FP1, but RB8s are still the slowest at the speed trap thoughout the race weekend. It makes you wonder whether they might have short-geared for this GP, just like Monza last year.


#55 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 10:09

Wha bugs me is that people simply put Alonso's failure to win in 2010 down to that bad strategy call.

They forget the several Alonso mistakes (way more than he normally makes) and the engine failure in Malaysia (the last car failure DNF he suffered!)

Personally, I thought Ferrari strategists screwed up Alonso pit stop by covering the wrong driver. It could have been 258pt (Alonso) vs 256pt (Vettel) if Alonso had maintained his racing position (4th) before the pit stop.

But I am not complaining about the end result, though... :D

#56 joshb

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 11:22

Personally, I thought Ferrari strategists screwed up Alonso pit stop by covering the wrong driver. It could have been 258pt (Alonso) vs 256pt (Vettel) if Alonso had maintained his racing position (4th) before the pit stop.

But I am not complaining about the end result, though... :D


but then thrown in If Alonso hadn't crashed in X, Y and Z and it would have been 300 points.
Alonso didn't lose it just on that strategy call, he lost it over the course of the season

#57 joshb

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 11:23

Yup.
It was 311.6kph in FP1, 312.3kph in FP2, 315.9kph in FP3 and 316.0kph in Qualifying.

There is a significant progress from FP1, but RB8s are still the slowest at the speed trap thoughout the race weekend. It makes you wonder whether they might have short-geared for this GP, just like Monza last year.


if the Ferrari/Mclaren are significantly longer, it will give Seb a good advantage off the line and in the early laps accelerating out of the corners

#58 DILLIGAF

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 12:36

Personally I don't think drs will be as bad here as last year with the single shortened run.

As for the pole lap, little lock up and run wide into the hairpin so he could've quite possibly gone even faster.


Agree that it won't be as bad as last year but Seb will still need to get the gap over 1 sec before lap 3 imho.

#59 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 12:42

Personally I don't think drs will be as bad here as last year with the single shortened run.

As for the pole lap, little lock up and run wide into the hairpin so he could've quite possibly gone even faster.

Running wide at the hairpin? Nah.... That was his usual racing line. He did the same thing last year too enroute to his pole position.

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#60 Alarcon

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 12:51

Superb post!!

I do think it would be close if they were in the same team, but I feel Hamilton would have the upper hand - particularly given how consistently fast he has been this year compared to Vettel. Unfortunately, some of Vettel's fans feel the need to argue that he is the best qualifier since Senna, but until we can get a direct comparison with him coming up against either Hamilton or Alonso, we will never know how many of his 32 poles are thanks to the car.


The answer of someone who knows just a little bit how this sport works is very easy: Any.

You need a car+driver and you must deliver. Remember last season where Lewis had the car to fight against Vettel in some Q3 and he lost against him at his lap.

Some people can ask you the same: how many of those 21 pole positions of Lewis were due to the car? Do you really think a legend called Jim Clark had no car to achieve pole positions? The answer is exactly the same, driver+car.

And as you said it´s impossible to say, Vettel this season is feeling very uncomfortable with the car, he needs to adapt his style and he is struggling with it... despite it he achieved the same number of pole positions than Lewis Hamilton, who feels much better than ever with his car. Both are the best qualifiers and when they´ll have similar car and a car they feel comfortable both... we will see. I pray for a VET-HAM team.

Edited by Alarcon, 10 June 2012 - 12:52.


#61 Alarcon

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 12:54

Personally, I thought Ferrari strategists screwed up Alonso pit stop by covering the wrong driver. It could have been 258pt (Alonso) vs 256pt (Vettel) if Alonso had maintained his racing position (4th) before the pit stop.

But I am not complaining about the end result, though... :D



But I´m sure when Alonso did his pit you though it was the best strategy... as even spanish tv commentator.  ;)



#62 FenderJaguar

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 12:54

Great effort from Vettel in qualifying again yesterday. The car is good but it is not just the car. He is the best driver on the grid at the moment.

#63 mursuka80

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 12:55

Its a stupid copout anyway, because chances of Seb driving alongside Lewis aor Alonso are very small, so if he takes for example 50 poles and 40+ wins on a red bull, then people will still say that he hasnt proved anything. Almost 60 years of F1 and Seb is the first who has got lucky with the car and all his 30+ poles are because of the car. Do you realise how stupid that sounds?

#64 jamiegc

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:01

Running wide at the hairpin? Nah.... That was his usual racing line. He did the same thing last year too enroute to his pole position.


He always takes a wider line at the hairpin, but on that lap he definitely ran wider than even he usually does.

#65 TheBunk

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:05

Great effort from Vettel in qualifying again yesterday. The car is good but it is not just the car. He is the best driver on the grid at the moment.

:up:

#66 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:14

The answer of someone who knows just a little bit how this sport works is very easy: Any.

You need a car+driver and you must deliver. Remember last season where Lewis had the car to fight against Vettel in some Q3 and he lost against him at his lap.

Some people can ask you the same: how many of those 21 pole positions of Lewis were due to the car? Do you really think a legend called Jim Clark had no car to achieve pole positions? The answer is exactly the same, driver+car.

And as you said it´s impossible to say, Vettel this season is feeling very uncomfortable with the car, he needs to adapt his style and he is struggling with it... despite it he achieved the same number of pole positions than Lewis Hamilton, who feels much better than ever with his car. Both are the best qualifiers and when they´ll have similar car and a car they feel comfortable both... we will see. I pray for a VET-HAM team.


Yes please! That would clear this matter up once and for all...

It is true that Vettel has the same number of poles as Lewis this season, but his average qualifying performance has been far worse in my opinion.

Also, regarding your point about the fact that all of his poles required a car capable to do so, what I am really getting at is how many poles has SV so far achieved without car advantage (or even a slight disadvantage)? Personally, I don't think that too many of them are, but equally we don't really know how good the RB7 and RB8 actually were/are. Thus far in Seb's career, I have not seen him put in a qualifying performance where I thought 'wow that car was not supposed to be there' in the same way that I have seen FA and particularly LH do. I suppose time will tell...

#67 TheBunk

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:16

Yes please! That would clear this matter up once and for all...

It is true that Vettel has the same number of poles as Lewis this season, but his average qualifying performance has been far worse in my opinion.

Also, regarding your point about the fact that all of his poles required a car capable to do so, what I am really getting at is how many poles has SV so far achieved without car advantage (or even a slight disadvantage)? Personally, I don't think that too many of them are, but equally we don't really know how good the RB7 and RB8 actually were/are. Thus far in Seb's career, I have not seen him put in a qualifying performance where I thought 'wow that car was not supposed to be there' in the same way that I have seen FA and particularly LH do. I suppose time will tell...


Go and rewatch 2008 Monza. That will help! Spa and especially Monza 2011 might help too, because he definitlydidnthave the fastest car there, but your beloved LH did.

Edited by TheBunk, 10 June 2012 - 13:18.


#68 mursuka80

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:24

When has Alonso put a car on pole, that didnt belong there? He has won races that he shouldnt have won, but i dont remember any qualys. Same with Lewis.

#69 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:25

Go and rewatch 2008 Monza. That will help! Spa and especially Monza 2011 might help too, because he definitlydidnthave the fastest car there, but your beloved LH did.


Vettel's pole in 2008, whilst a great lap, was frankly a result of both McLaren and Ferrari not going out early enough in the session. I agree that Vettel did not have the outright fastest car in Monza 2011 (and Hamilton made a mistake on his second flier). Nonetheless, I don't believe he is a faster qualifier than Hamilton, but each to their own opinions I suppose. All will become clear if Hamilton moves to RBR in 2013  ;)

#70 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:33

If Vettel ever finds himself in a team with Alonso, Hamilton and possibly Button, and beats them over the course of the season - I will give Vettel all the credit that he will unquestionably deserve.

Edited by D.M.N., 10 June 2012 - 15:01.
remove deleted quote


#71 Zava

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:35

If Vettel ever finds himself in a team with Alonso, Hamilton and possibly Button, and beats them over the course of the season - I will give Vettel all the credit that he will unquestionably deserve.

and how did they earn to be the benchmarks, while Vettel not? :rolleyes:

#72 mursuka80

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:36

And if their paths dont cross through their careers then what?

#73 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:41

and how did they earn to be the benchmarks, while Vettel not? :rolleyes:


Well, therein lies the problem of F1!

Vettel just, in my opinion, needs to compete against a WDC teammate, as there can't really be doubts as to whether any of the current WDCs are superb drivers. Alonso did in 2007 (well, LH later became a WDC), Hamilton has done it in 2007, 2010, 2011 and 2012, whilst Button has done it in 2010, 2011 and 2012.

That's all I'm saying, and I'm not disputing the idea that Vettel may well be good enough to beat all three of these in the same car!

#74 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:41

and how did they earn to be the benchmarks, while Vettel not? :rolleyes:


It will always be an educated guessing game in which no one will ever agree :lol:

#75 ayali

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:42

If Vettel ever finds himself in a team with Alonso, Hamilton and possibly Button, and beats them over the course of the season

Well that's not likely to happen unless Montezemolo gets his way with 3 or 4 car teams  ;)

Anyway what's all this blabbering about proving yourself and putting cars where they don't belong
The figures speak for themselves

Championships 2
Wins 22
Pole positions 32

Out of 87 races at the age of 24
I'll save his F1 records for another day

:cool:

#76 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:45

Well that's not likely to happen unless Montezemolo gets his way with 3 or 4 car teams ;)

Anyway what's all this blabbering about proving yourself and putting cars where they don't belong
The figures speak for themselves

Championships 2
Wins 22
Pole positions 32

Out of 87 races at the age of 24
I'll save his F1 records for another day

:cool:


Agreed.

The Vettel-RB6-RB7 has proved itself to be the fastest over the past two seasons.


#77 Zava

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:56

Well, therein lies the problem of F1!

Vettel just, in my opinion, needs to compete against a WDC teammate, as there can't really be doubts as to whether any of the current WDCs are superb drivers. Alonso did in 2007 (well, LH later became a WDC), Hamilton has done it in 2007, 2010, 2011 and 2012, whilst Button has done it in 2010, 2011 and 2012.

That's all I'm saying, and I'm not disputing the idea that Vettel may well be good enough to beat all three of these in the same car!

yeah, that is the problem. I could say that even though they competed against each other, they will not be proven unless they compete against Vettel in the same team.  ;)

#78 Nigol

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:56

Well that's not likely to happen unless Montezemolo gets his way with 3 or 4 car teams ;)

Anyway what's all this blabbering about proving yourself and putting cars where they don't belong
The figures speak for themselves

Championships 2
Wins 22
Pole positions 32

Out of 87 races at the age of 24
I'll save his F1 records for another day

:cool:


That indicate he is one of the top drivers at the moment, but this alone does not make him better than, say, Alonso. (Not saying he is not

#79 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:56

yeah, that is the problem. I could say that even though they competed against each other, they will not be proven unless they compete against Vettel in the same team. ;)


Touché!

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#80 TheBunk

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 13:58

Vettel's pole in 2008, whilst a great lap, was frankly a result of both McLaren and Ferrari not going out early enough in the session. I agree that Vettel did not have the outright fastest car in Monza 2011 (and Hamilton made a mistake on his second flier). Nonetheless, I don't believe he is a faster qualifier than Hamilton, but each to their own opinions I suppose. All will become clear if Hamilton moves to RBR in 2013 ;)


Abu Dahbi 2011? And was it Vettels fault that Lewis made a mistake on his qualifying lap? Isnt one of the traits of a super qualifier that he doesnt make mistakes?

Then, have you read that (pulled) Autosport article where a Mclaren boss says in the latter half of 2011, they believe they had a better car than the Red Bull, but that the difference for pole was made because of Vettel?

And doesnt Vettel share a car with qualifying specialist - look at last weeks Monaco - Mark Webber? If the Red Bull was so superior, he should have a lot of poles too, no? currently its 32 poles for Vettel, and 10 for Mark.

Id say you oughta give the kid credit for that list, and accept he fought hard for that number in a car that wasnt that superior and at a number of times inferior to Mclaren, driven by Lewis Hamilton, and beat him fair and square.

Edited by TheBunk, 10 June 2012 - 14:01.


#81 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 14:10

Abu Dahbi 2011? And was it Vettels fault that Lewis made a mistake on his qualifying lap? Isnt one of the traits of a super qualifier that he doesnt make mistakes?

Then, have you read that (pulled) Autosport article where a Mclaren boss says in the latter half of 2011, they believe they had a better car than the Red Bull, but that the difference for pole was made because of Vettel?

And doesnt Vettel share a car with qualifying specialist - look at last weeks Monaco - Mark Webber? If the Red Bull was so superior, he should have a lot of poles too, no? currently its 32 poles for Vettel, and 10 for Mark.

Id say you oughta give the kid credit for that list, and accept he fought hard for that number in a car that wasnt that superior and at a number of times inferior to Mclaren, driven by Lewis Hamilton, and beat him fair and square.


I was actually using Hamilton's mistake as evidence that he had the faster car but did not use it well (therefore complementing Vettel) - try to read what is actually written without being blinded by bias.

I also agree that Vettel's record against Webber is impressive, but it is certainly far closer this year and I want to see how 2012 pans out compared to Webber before I make an absolute judgement.

I'm not disputing the fact that Vettel is a great qualifier when he's on his game, but I still don't believe he is the quickest.

#82 TheBunk

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 14:31

I was actually using Hamilton's mistake as evidence that he had the faster car but did not use it well (therefore complementing Vettel) - try to read what is actually written without being blinded by bias.


Indeed, I didnt read it well enough.

I'm not disputing the fact that Vettel is a great qualifier when he's on his game, but I still don't believe he is the quickest.


It seems that vettel can beat Hamilton week in and out in inferior cars, and even Mclaren acknowledge Vettel is better but you still dont believe Vettel is the best.

#83 joshb

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 14:34

Well, therein lies the problem of F1!

Vettel just, in my opinion, needs to compete against a WDC teammate, as there can't really be doubts as to whether any of the current WDCs are superb drivers. Alonso did in 2007 (well, LH later became a WDC), Hamilton has done it in 2007, 2010, 2011 and 2012, whilst Button has done it in 2010, 2011 and 2012.

That's all I'm saying, and I'm not disputing the idea that Vettel may well be good enough to beat all three of these in the same car!


So Ayrton Senna is rubbish then because the only time he had a World champion teammate (excluding the 3 races alongside Hill), he lost BOTH seasons (if you don't drop scores in 1988.)

I see the point of some people wanting to see him up against the cream (Mark Webber, whilst being supremely good is not that tiny final extra step up) but its not always a consistant criteria

#84 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 14:50

So Ayrton Senna is rubbish then because the only time he had a World champion teammate (excluding the 3 races alongside Hill), he lost BOTH seasons (if you don't drop scores in 1988.)

I see the point of some people wanting to see him up against the cream (Mark Webber, whilst being supremely good is not that tiny final extra step up) but its not always a consistant criteria


Well, they both won a championship each, so I call it 1-1! Nonetheless, even if you decide that Senna was bettered by Prost in their two years together, they were incredibly close, so you can still say that they were both phenomenally talented drivers. The fact that Senna came so close to Prost (and vice versa) validated their respective abilities, and this is what I hope will happen with Vettel in the future.

#85 Nigol

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 14:56

It seems that vettel can beat Hamilton week in and out in inferior cars, and even Mclaren acknowledge Vettel is better but you still dont believe Vettel is the best.


Disputable. Happened the other way around too, though.

#86 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:00

Disputable. Happened the other way around too, though.


They're so close that, if one is not on his 100% game in a superior car, the one in the inferior car might just get it.

#87 Alarcon

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:21

Yes please! That would clear this matter up once and for all...

It is true that Vettel has the same number of poles as Lewis this season, but his average qualifying performance has been far worse in my opinion.

Also, regarding your point about the fact that all of his poles required a car capable to do so, what I am really getting at is how many poles has SV so far achieved without car advantage (or even a slight disadvantage)? Personally, I don't think that too many of them are, but equally we don't really know how good the RB7 and RB8 actually were/are. Thus far in Seb's career, I have not seen him put in a qualifying performance where I thought 'wow that car was not supposed to be there' in the same way that I have seen FA and particularly LH do. I suppose time will tell...



If Vettel did a pole with a TR... because McLaren fault, Heikki fault, the rain fault...
If Vettel did a pole with a RB at China 2009 (first pole ever for the team) against the Brawn Gp... that was the car.

Can you ask me please how many pole position did Jim Clark without a fast car? I wait your answer. Or maybe you are too young and just a fanboy? :rolleyes:

You must see F1 and specially Seb´s performance throw another eyes.

Edited by Alarcon, 10 June 2012 - 15:25.


#88 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 15:55

If Vettel did a pole with a TR... because McLaren fault, Heikki fault, the rain fault...
If Vettel did a pole with a RB at China 2009 (first pole ever for the team) against the Brawn Gp... that was the car.

Can you ask me please how many pole position did Jim Clark without a fast car? I wait your answer. Or maybe you are too young and just a fanboy? :rolleyes:

You must see F1 and specially Seb´s performance throw another eyes.


I admit that I was too young to see Jim Clark race (as, I suspect are a large number of people on this forum) but that doesn't diminish my ability to have a valid opinion - I fail to see how my age is at all relevant to whether I am or am not a fanboy...

I'm not disputing the fact that Vettel is an extremely quick qualifier. If you've read my posts so far, you will notice that all I have stated is that:

1) I believe Hamilton to be faster than Vettel (hardly an outlandish suggestion).
2) I would like to see Vettel in the same team as another WDC before I fully judge his ability (an opinion that is held by many members of the forum).

I apologise if any of these opinions have offended you :rolleyes:

#89 Afterburner

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 16:48

2) I would like to see Vettel in the same team as another WDC before I fully judge his ability (an opinion that is held by many members of the forum).

I don't understand this criteria, because chances are if he went up against someone like Button or Raikkonen people would probably still rate him below Alonso and Hamilton. I laugh at the circular logic that people use to arrive at the conclusion that Hamilton and Alonso are more worthy of the 'best driver' mantle solely because they raced against each other at Macca. Someone said earlier that Senna and Prost were regarded as great drivers because they essentially verified each other's talent. If we're going by this logic, how do we know that, say, Alguersuari and Buemi weren't the two greatest drivers in the field who were held back by their car? They verified each other's talent by being so close in terms of results, didn't they?

I suppose that counts for nothing because they haven't won any championships. Even though Hamilton and Alonso won their only championships against decidedly weaker teammates, with arguable number one status, many people cite the fact that they raced against each other as teammates to justify their talent and rank them above Vettel in terms of overall ability. Additionally, who is anyone to say that Mark Webber is a shoddy driver, too? I used to think he was below the accepted 'top tier' in terms of talent, but I really think he's stepped up his game this year and I would certainly rate him above Button and Massa, now, easily. He may not be a WDC, but he very nearly was, and to write him off as an unsuitable benchmark for Vettel is laughable, in my opinion. He's every bit as tough as the rest of the Ferrari/Macca drivers, and I don't hesitate to forget that he gave Alonso a run for his money in a number of races last year, in a car he wasn't comfortable with.

For the record, I believe that Hamilton, Vettel, and Alonso are the three quickest drivers on the grid, and there's honestly nothing to choose between them in terms of pace; if you think one is better than the other two than it's probably out of personal taste. However, I don't think they're good drivers because of the teammates they faced--I rate Hamilton for his numerous good showings in '09, '10, and '12, and I rate Alonso for his consistent results over his past three years at Ferrari. To rate them based on the teammates they faced is a wholly ridiculous and hypocritical criteria, in my opinion, because it relies on one's subjective evaluations of each drivers worth and personal bias will always exist as a factor in such a judgment. Nobody in F1--even teammates--will ever be racing on the same playing field, and as a result, I tend to assess drivers on the challenges they face individually rather than their performances against other drivers. I'm still somewhat biased towards my favourite drivers, admittedly, but I try my absolute best to be objective and give credit where it's due. Hopefully you understand. :)

#90 oligc94

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 17:02

I don't understand this criteria, because chances are if he went up against someone like Button or Raikkonen people would probably still rate him below Alonso and Hamilton. I laugh at the circular logic that people use to arrive at the conclusion that Hamilton and Alonso are more worthy of the 'best driver' mantle solely because they raced against each other at Macca. Someone said earlier that Senna and Prost were regarded as great drivers because they essentially verified each other's talent. If we're going by this logic, how do we know that, say, Alguersuari and Buemi weren't the two greatest drivers in the field who were held back by their car? They verified each other's talent by being so close in terms of results, didn't they?

I suppose that counts for nothing because they haven't won any championships. Even though Hamilton and Alonso won their only championships against decidedly weaker teammates, with arguable number one status, many people cite the fact that they raced against each other as teammates to justify their talent and rank them above Vettel in terms of overall ability. Additionally, who is anyone to say that Mark Webber is a shoddy driver, too? I used to think he was below the accepted 'top tier' in terms of talent, but I really think he's stepped up his game this year and I would certainly rate him above Button and Massa, now, easily. He may not be a WDC, but he very nearly was, and to write him off as an unsuitable benchmark for Vettel is laughable, in my opinion. He's every bit as tough as the rest of the Ferrari/Macca drivers, and I don't hesitate to forget that he gave Alonso a run for his money in a number of races last year, in a car he wasn't comfortable with.

For the record, I believe that Hamilton, Vettel, and Alonso are the three quickest drivers on the grid, and there's honestly nothing to choose between them in terms of pace; if you think one is better than the other two than it's probably out of personal taste. However, I don't think they're good drivers because of the teammates they faced--I rate Hamilton for his numerous good showings in '09, '10, and '12, and I rate Alonso for his consistent results over his past three years at Ferrari. To rate them based on the teammates they faced is a wholly ridiculous and hypocritical criteria, in my opinion, because it relies on one's subjective evaluations of each drivers worth and personal bias will always exist as a factor in such a judgment. Nobody in F1--even teammates--will ever be racing on the same playing field, and as a result, I tend to assess drivers on the challenges they face individually rather than their performances against other drivers. I'm still somewhat biased towards my favourite drivers, admittedly, but I try my absolute best to be objective and give credit where it's due. Hopefully you understand. :)


Firstly, very nice post :D

Regarding the first bolded part, if Vettel were to be pitched against FA, LH or JB and beat them I would indisputably agree with the assertion that he is the fastest current driver. There is simply no way to argue against that sort of hard evidence...

On the second bolded part, I do agree, but I feel that the teammates drivers face are in themselves individual challenges and, as such should be taken in to account when judging a driver.

I also try to be objective but, inevitably, my judgement (as everybody else's) is affected by bias. Also, I problem that I always see in this forum is that few people respect the others' opinions. I'm in the Vettel thread and I support Hamilton so I will inevitably get slated for my views - despite the fact that I feel I give credit to Vettel where it is due and I'm merely expressing my opinion the same as everybody else!


#91 joshb

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 19:37

Ultimately didn't have the pace but given a crazy last few laps he's still only 3 points off the lead.

#92 Group B

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 19:40

Great tyre call by someone at the end; I initially thought WTF, but it must've got them at least two extra places.

#93 joshb

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 19:41

Great tyre call by someone at the end; I initially thought WTF, but it must've got them at least two extra places.


Spot on, he was ****ed otherwise

#94 jamiegc

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 19:42

Shouldve pitted for SS's at least 5 laps earlier, wouldve stayed ahead of Perez comfortably. Called it on race thread.

#95 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 19:42

I stayed up until 4am for this? :mad:

At least Vettel finished ahead of Alonso! But he just did not have the pace in the 1st stint.

#96 Zava

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 19:48

damn, lost the gamble. actually he was just 7 seconds off, with a 10-15 lap supersoft stint at the end, who knows what would've happened...

#97 apoka

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 19:52

At least Vettel finished ahead of Alonso! But he just did not have the pace in the 1st stint.

Yes. The first stint was the main problem. Pit stops and strategy weren't perfect either. However, driver performance wise it looked very good when comparing with Webber on live timing.


#98 fatd

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 19:52

Great tyre call by someone at the end; I initially thought WTF, but it must've got them at least two extra places.


Yeah that was my initial thought also, like wtf? I think alonso attempting a one stop forced them to take the same strategy, bcs the three of them looked just safe for podium at some point of the race.

#99 choyothe

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 20:00

Poor tyre life and poor pace even with that, really he was beaten by Ham and Alonso had they used the same tactics. Didn't understand why they didn't undercut him with SS, would've had a good chance to win (although with the usually terrible top speed it would've been difficult to pass Ham.)

(Ham-fanboy mode)

Clearly showing why he's the fastest driver in the world in the last 3-4 laps, completely ridiculous times on the edge topped of with a monster 15.7.

(/Ham-fanboy mode)

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#100 joshb

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 20:09

I know it was on t last lap but a 15.7 is only 2 secs off pole and 2-3s fastesr than he went for most of the race. Just shows how much these guys are nursing the tyres mid race. There's a second or more in there if they want it at times.