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Sebastian Vettel Thread Part II


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#2101 showtime

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:23

Would it surprise you if he did?


Now that you ask... it shouldn't. It's the kind of things he says when everything goes well. It's just that remembering his "I hate everyone" face after some races and then adding that quote behind is completely hilarious.

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#2102 gillesthegenius

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:36

I don't think anyone could argue against Alonso having been the better driver this season.


I dont think its as Black and White as that. Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso have driven brilliantly this season and there are cases for all three of them if there was a 'title' given for the 'best driver of the season'. But fortunately or unfortunately the only title that matters is the WDC and its apparently decided by points. Not public opinion. :D

#2103 Afterburner

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:34

Now that you ask... it shouldn't. It's the kind of things he says when everything goes well. It's just that remembering his "I hate everyone" face after some races and then adding that quote behind is completely hilarious.

You know very well that emotions run high in this sport. I give Seb credit for having the humility to see the big picture outside the heat of the moment. I personally don't often hear comments like that from the other WDCs on the grid.

#2104 Tardis40

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:33

Congratulations to Sebastian for an excellent win. Plus 3 consecutive race wins is always an achievement.


Not as big as the three consecutive WDCs he's about to collect.


#2105 bourbon

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:48

Did he really said that? :confused:


Of course.

This was following Suzuka. The car was a "dream" to drive and the memory of navigating the S's was high. Seb's enthusiasm was very infectious and although he found it difficult to put into words, I think many people have experienced a similar kind of giddy, euphoria as a result of doing something they love (and it is almost always equally difficult to put into words), so it was easy to understand and get carried away in the moment with him. :up:

#2106 SUPRAF1

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:47

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19941541

Vettel leaving presumably for 2014.

#2107 Zava

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:50

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19941541

Vettel leaving presumably for 2014.

The contract is likely to define a position Ferrari must occupy in the title race at a point in 2013.

one more reason to be hoping for a donkey from ferrari, so the option doesn't click :D

#2108 Kelateboy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:27

one more reason to be hoping for a donkey from ferrari, so the option doesn't click :D

Why would Vettel want to leave RBR for Ferrari?
The last few years have shown that when it comes to race car's development, RBR is second to none. Even Ferrari or McLaren is no match for the drinks company!

#2109 Sakae

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:23

Long term outlook would suggest possibility that Vettel's career as F1 driver, for good or bad, might last longer than RBR staying at the top on podium (AN could leave, etc.). Seb is walking fine line when he should not make too many enemies in competing camps, because one day he might need them if he wants to remain in contention. Based on current developments, in near future probably it is only Ferrari and possibly Mercedes who will rise to the top. I am not trying to be controversial, but I do not see anyone else coming forward in reassuring manner. I include Mercedes because of technical changes introduced that have some potential to convert current free-fall, whereas McLaren appears to be stagnant, lacking that final iota to get it together. Besides, I think it would be a wrong team for him anyway.

#2110 sailor

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:12

Keep believing that if you want but what we saw was the same we saw in Suzuka and what we probably will see in India. I thought after 2011 people would know how RBR operates but I guess I was wrong. I'm looking forward to the next GP to know what will be the excuse to not admit RB has found something that make their cars rockets on rails once again.


Well RB are class of the field now - Agreed.

But McLaren were class of the field for an equal or greater number of races.

And Ferrari were a class of the field in all the wet races plus they inherited some of the dry race wins from Vettel.

Basically it simply means that Vettel salvaged enough points when he was not running the best car.

I m certain that 2012 will be made out as RBR domination by desperate Ferrari fans but it wont be true.

Besides - we dont have the correct benchmark on the Ferrari car. Massa situation doesnt allow us to do that.

Edited by sailor, 15 October 2012 - 10:12.


#2111 sailor

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:14

one more reason to be hoping for a donkey from ferrari, so the option doesn't click :D


Actually I m not so sure. I would deffo want Vettel to show up Alonso and wash off the magic.

But thinking about your comment again - its possible that Alonso (or Massa) deliberately screw up the results so that the option doesnt get enforced.

#2112 showtime

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:39

Well RB are class of the field now - Agreed.

But McLaren were class of the field for an equal or greater number of races.

And Ferrari were a class of the field in all the wet races plus they inherited some of the dry race wins from Vettel.

Basically it simply means that Vettel salvaged enough points when he was not running the best car.

I m certain that 2012 will be made out as RBR domination by desperate Ferrari fans but it wont be true.

Besides - we dont have the correct benchmark on the Ferrari car. Massa situation doesnt allow us to do that.


Well if everything goes as expected and the RBR dominates the the rest of the GPs it would have been the dominant car on half of the races. Considering how the rest of the races went, and from a Ferrari point of view, it looks like it could be considered that way. But let's wait until the end to confirm this.

#2113 sailor

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:43

Well if everything goes as expected and the RBR dominates the the rest of the GPs it would have been the dominant car on half of the races. Considering how the rest of the races went, and from a Ferrari point of view, it looks like it could be considered that way. But let's wait until the end to confirm this.


Wait for what?

Seb winning all races will be branded as nothing special and dominant RBR
Seb losing it will be Seb dropping the ball
Seb clinching is at the last race by 2 points will also be spun as "imagine which race the WDC would be over had Alonso been in RBR"

Tell me one scenario where you will acknowledge that Seb deserved the title irrespective of car stengths?
Since you cant measure the relative car capabilities in isolation, one can always argue that Seb is winning simply because of the car.

As far as I m concerned - I have seen all there is to see this year - Seb in a bad car , a good car and on one occasion a dominant car which eventually failed.
Seb winning from pole and Seb coming thru the field to salvage a podium or 2 after being out in Q2.

While its important that Seb is maximising the car when its capable of the win, its equally important that he kept it together when the car wasnt capable of even podiums.


#2114 showtime

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 13:26

Wait for what?

Seb winning all races will be branded as nothing special and dominant RBR
Seb losing it will be Seb dropping the ball
Seb clinching is at the last race by 2 points will also be spun as "imagine which race the WDC would be over had Alonso been in RBR"

Tell me one scenario where you will acknowledge that Seb deserved the title irrespective of car stengths?
Since you cant measure the relative car capabilities in isolation, one can always argue that Seb is winning simply because of the car.

As far as I m concerned - I have seen all there is to see this year - Seb in a bad car , a good car and on one occasion a dominant car which eventually failed.
Seb winning from pole and Seb coming thru the field to salvage a podium or 2 after being out in Q2.

While its important that Seb is maximising the car when its capable of the win, its equally important that he kept it together when the car wasnt capable of even podiums.


As I said many times he would be a worthy WDC in every scenario in which he ends with more points than the other drivers, F1 works this way. Now if you ask me how a WDC or a GP win would affect my opinion on the value of a driver I would say that it depends on how much the driver was necessary for that win. Most of Vettel wins have been cruising for pole thanks to a very dominant car so my opinion about Vettel's value (obviously he's great, I don't know how much) is on stand by. I don't know why me being undecided about how I rate Vettel is considered as an attack to the guy.

#2115 sailor

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 14:01

As I said many times he would be a worthy WDC in every scenario in which he ends with more points than the other drivers, F1 works this way. Now if you ask me how a WDC or a GP win would affect my opinion on the value of a driver I would say that it depends on how much the driver was necessary for that win. Most of Vettel wins have been cruising for pole thanks to a very dominant car so my opinion about Vettel's value (obviously he's great, I don't know how much) is on stand by. I don't know why me being undecided about how I rate Vettel is considered as an attack to the guy.


May not necessarily be you but generally the forum comes alive with all sorts of conspiracy theories, team favoritism, illegal wings and 1 sec faster car mumbo jumbo whenever Vettel starts winning. I m expecting no less this year as well.

Sorry I picked your post to make my point.

#2116 gillesthegenius

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 17:56

Who cares about what the world thinks of Seb. What matters for Seb and his fans is what he can, god willing, achieve in f1. And if this year will, god willing, go down in history as the year of his 3rd world title, then Seb and his fans can, god willing, rejoice and let the others argue about who deserves it and not or who is the best and who is the worst and who is lucky and who is unlucky.

#2117 Kelateboy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:01

Well if everything goes as expected and the RBR dominates the the rest of the GPs it would have been the dominant car on half of the races. Considering how the rest of the races went, and from a Ferrari point of view, it looks like it could be considered that way. But let's wait until the end to confirm this.

Half of the races? If we take RBR's "perceived domination" to start from Suzuka GP, then that's 6 races out of 20, hardly 1/3.

At no time during the 1st 14 races was the Red Bull head and shoulder above the competition.


#2118 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:17

Half of the races? If we take RBR's "perceived domination" to start from Suzuka GP, then that's 6 races out of 20, hardly 1/3.

At no time during the 1st 14 races was the Red Bull head and shoulder above the competition.


6 + Bahrein + Monaco + Silverstone + Valencia = 10

#2119 apoka

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:36

Just to pick one: In Silverstone they both had a good strategy, but they were not dominating in my opinion.

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#2120 sosidge

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:38

6 + Bahrein + Monaco + Silverstone + Valencia = 10


I think you are confusing "dominance" with "leading the race".

#2121 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:40

I think you are confusing "dominance" with "leading the race".


Leading the race from pole seems rather dominant to me.

#2122 LiJu914

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:44

6 + Bahrein + Monaco + Silverstone + Valencia = 10


6 (which remains to be seen) +

Bahrain? Renault was way faster in the race
Monaco? Mercedes qualified 1st and 3rd, Webber won thx to MSC being penalised...
Silverstone? Hardly seeing a significant difference between Ferrari and RB in that race
Valencia? Right, but that doesn´t help much, when your alternator says "no thanks"...

#2123 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:53

6 (which remains to be seen) +

Bahrain? Renault was way faster in the race
Monaco? Mercedes qualified 1st and 3rd, Webber won thx to MSC being penalised...
Silverstone? Hardly seeing a significant difference between Ferrari and RB in that race
Valencia? Right, but that doesn´t help much, when your alternator says "no thanks"...


I disagree with Silverstone but I'll give you that. The rest are (IMO of course) just attempts to find an excuse not to admit the truth.

#2124 Kelateboy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:56

6 + Bahrein + Monaco + Silverstone + Valencia = 10

Sebastian won Bahrain GP but the car was not the fastest in the race. It was generally accepted that Raikkonen's Lotus was the fastest car that day. Webber finished behind the 2 Lotuses.

Webber won Monaco GP, but a Ferrari and a Mercedes were within 1s of Webber at the chequered flag. Is that a sign of a team domination winning by a mere margin of 0.3s?

Valencia could have been a win for Vettel, but for an alternator issue. Again, would you consider a car dominant when it is besetted by troubling mechanical issue? A dominant car should be a fast car capable of finishing a race, and Vettel could not manage it in Valencia. Where was Mark Webber in the race? Behind a Ferrari, Lotus and Mercedes.

Mark won Silverstone GP, but Alonso was the fastest in qualifying. Alonso also led 48 out of 52 laps in that race. Only an issue with Alonso's graining front tyres allowed Webber to overtake Alonso on Lap 48.

Going by your criteria that winning cars are all dominant, then all WCCs must be dominant cars. Because most likely than not, WCCs would have the most wins in a season.


#2125 Kelateboy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 13:59

6 (which remains to be seen) +

Bahrain? Renault was way faster in the race
Monaco? Mercedes qualified 1st and 3rd, Webber won thx to MSC being penalised...
Silverstone? Hardly seeing a significant difference between Ferrari and RB in that race
Valencia? Right, but that doesn´t help much, when your alternator says "no thanks"...

You beat me to it.

I forgot that Mercedes qualified 1st and 3rd, and Michael was penalized 5 place grid penalty for his incident with Senna in Spanish GP.

#2126 LiJu914

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:02

I disagree with Silverstone but I'll give you that. The rest are (IMO of course) just attempts to find an excuse not to admit the truth.


So you have nothing substantial to answer, ok.

btw. Why shouldn´t i admit that, if i secretly thought otherwise? To put Vettel in a better light?

For the record: I don´t rate him as the best driver in the field.

Not to see, that Renault was the fastest race-car in Bahrain, needs much imagination and i don´t see what could be wrong about my comment about Valencia?

It´s also a simple fact that Merc qualified 1st and 3rd in Monaco - and that the guy being 1st was penalised and DNF while the other Merc was never further away than 2 seconds during the whole race...

Edited by LiJu914, 16 October 2012 - 14:05.


#2127 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:06

Going by your criteria that winning cars are all dominant, then all WCCs must be dominant cars. Because most likely than not, WCCs would have the most wins in a season.


I didn't say that, in fact I didn't count Singapore because I think the best car was the McLaren but since you discard Valencia because of the mechanical failure you should take Singapore instead. I'm not counting every win, if most of RB wins are dominant is just consequence of having a great car. Since in Silverstone Alonso took pole and Webber took his time to overtake him I've already given you that one. In Bahrain and Monaco the RB was the car to be without a doubt, winning from pole is a dominant win by my standards.



#2128 sosidge

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:09

I disagree with Silverstone but I'll give you that. The rest are (IMO of course) just attempts to find an excuse not to admit the truth.


Let me guess the truth...

If SV gets pole position - it's because of the car

If SV wins - it's because of the car

If SV doesn't get pole - it's because he is a terrible driver who needs an EBD

IF SV moves up through the field after qualifying poorly - it's because the car is still the best on the grid even without an EBD.

If SV beats Webber - it's because of a conspiracy within the team

If Webber beats SV - it's because Webber is a noble knight of the track, fighting against the injustices of the fizzy drinks company with his pure soul.

If some other driver wins (and frankly I don't even care which driver you have built a shrine to), it's because of that driver's skill, and absolutely NOT the car.

If some other driver fails to win - it is someone elses fault, but absolutely NOT your driver-prince's fault.

Am I right?

#2129 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:12

So you have nothing substantial to answer, ok.

btw. Why shouldn´t i admit that, if i secretly thought otherwise? To put Vettel in a better light?

For the record: I don´t rate him as the best driver in the field.

Not to see, that Renault was the fastest race-car in Bahrain, needs much imagination and i don´t see what could be wrong about my comment about Valencia?

It´s also a simple fact that Merc qualified 1st and 3rd in Monaco - and that the guy being 1st was penalised and DNF while the other Merc was never further away than 2 seconds during the whole race...


If the Lotus were the faster cars why they didn't get pole or victory?
If you don't concede Valencia the, for the same reason, you have to concede Singapore.
In Monaco the gap was small because Webber had tyre issues, the same tyre issues Alonso have in Silverstone and didn't keep you from saying he had the best car that weekend.

#2130 Kelateboy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:15

I didn't say that, in fact I didn't count Singapore because I think the best car was the McLaren but since you discard Valencia because of the mechanical failure you should take Singapore instead. I'm not counting every win, if most of RB wins are dominant is just consequence of having a great car. Since in Silverstone Alonso took pole and Webber took his time to overtake him I've already given you that one. In Bahrain and Monaco the RB was the car to be without a doubt, winning from pole is a dominant win by my standards.

By listing Silverstone, Monaco and Bahrain as the examples of Red Bull "dominant" performances, you are effectively saying that all winning cars are dominant.

Going by that logic - all WCCs have had dominant cars.



#2131 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:22

Let me guess the truth...

If SV gets pole position - it's because of the car

If SV wins - it's because of the car

If SV doesn't get pole - it's because he is a terrible driver who needs an EBD

IF SV moves up through the field after qualifying poorly - it's because the car is still the best on the grid even without an EBD.

If SV beats Webber - it's because of a conspiracy within the team

If Webber beats SV - it's because Webber is a noble knight of the track, fighting against the injustices of the fizzy drinks company with his pure soul.

If some other driver wins (and frankly I don't even care which driver you have built a shrine to), it's because of that driver's skill, and absolutely NOT the car.

If some other driver fails to win - it is someone elses fault, but absolutely NOT your driver-prince's fault.

Am I right?


No, my point all this time is the RB, IF the remaining races are more of the same, should be considered the best car this season because it has been dominant in half the races (the other half not having different best cars). The rest is just you trying to discuss me instead of discussing the topic.

#2132 LiJu914

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:24

If the Lotus were the faster cars why they didn't get pole or victory?


Are you kidding me? Ok, a question for you then: If RedBull, McLaren etc. were the faster cars, how was Alonso able to lead the WDC for so long?

If you don't concede Valencia the, for the same reason, you have to concede Singapore.

There was still a McLaren, which didn´t retire in Singapore.. Now you can mention that Alonso also beat Webber in Valencia then, but as this is the Vettel-thread...

In Monaco the gap was small because Webber had tyre issues, the same tyre issues Alonso have in Silverstone and didn't keep you from saying he had the best car that weekend.


Wrong. I said, i didn´t see a big difference between Ferrari and Red Bull in Silverstone - and i also didn´t see a big difference between Merc and RB in Monaco. So from my point of view none of these teams had a dominant car at these weekends.

Edited by LiJu914, 16 October 2012 - 14:25.


#2133 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:24

By listing Silverstone, Monaco and Bahrain as the examples of Red Bull "dominant" performances, you are effectively saying that all winning cars are dominant.

Going by that logic - all WCCs have had dominant cars.


I already answered that twice.

#2134 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:30

Just to avoid going in circles. What GPs from this seasons you consider to be won on a dominant fashion?

#2135 Kelateboy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:30

No, my point all this time is the RB, IF the remaining races are more of the same, should be considered the best car this season because it has been dominant in half the races (the other half not having different best cars). The rest is just you trying to discuss me instead of discussing the topic.

Even if Vettel wins the next 4 races, it does not mean that the RB8 is head and shoulder above everyone else this year. It does not mean that they are the dominant car of the year. At best, you can say they are the best car at 1/3 of the races this year, and the rest to be shared between McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes (in whatever portion).

#2136 mnmracer

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:35

Just to avoid going in circles. What GPs from this seasons you consider to be won on a dominant fashion?

- Australia
- Chinese
- Hungarian
- Belgian
- Italian
- Japanese

#2137 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:40

- Australia
- Chinese
- Hungarian
- Belgian
- Italian
- Japanese


Not even Korea :eek:

#2138 MightyMoose

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:45

- Australia
- Chinese
- Hungarian
- Belgian
- Italian
- Japanese

Remove Hungary because LH had a Lotus up his arse all race (very similar to Bahrain?) and I'd say Korea was "dominant" in that SV controlled the race fairly comfortably.... excitable Race Engineer notwithstanding.

#2139 choyothe

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:51

Leading the race from pole seems rather dominant to me.


Yeah, that makes no sense. From where would you lead rather than from pole? I guess Ferrari was dominant in Hockenheim as well.

There's exactly 2 races RB (Vettel) has been dominant this year, and one of those the alternator failed. Valencia and Suzuka



Not even Korea :eek:


Of course not, Ferrari would've challenged if the faster driver was allowed to pass the slower one.

- Australia
- Chinese
- Hungarian
- Belgian
- Italian
- Japanese


I don't agree with China and Hungary. Mclaren looked very capable of challenging without Ham's penalty and Button getting stuck behind Kimi with a different strategy. I think even the pole gap was bc of a great, great lap from Nico.

In Hungary Lotus looked just as fast and Kimi was challenging Lewis till the end.

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#2140 sailor

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:52

I didn't say that, in fact I didn't count Singapore because I think the best car was the McLaren but since you discard Valencia because of the mechanical failure you should take Singapore instead. I'm not counting every win, if most of RB wins are dominant is just consequence of having a great car. Since in Silverstone Alonso took pole and Webber took his time to overtake him I've already given you that one. In Bahrain and Monaco the RB was the car to be without a doubt, winning from pole is a dominant win by my standards.


So Kimi was performing super human feats by almost touching Seb 's exhaust- Right/

#2141 LiJu914

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:54

- "really " dominant:

China, Spa, Monza, Suzuka


- wins, in which the leader always seemed to have everything under control, without creating a huge gap between himself and the others:

Melbourne, perhaps Budapest, Korea


The rest were pretty close wins.

Edited by LiJu914, 16 October 2012 - 14:55.


#2142 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 14:56

Of course not, Ferrari would've challenged if the faster driver was allowed to pass the slower one.


I don't know if you are aware of the fact that even if Massa could challenge Webber, the race leader was easily cruising more than 10 seconds in front.

EDIT: We should move to the RB8 thread.

Edited by showtime, 16 October 2012 - 15:04.


#2143 LiJu914

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 15:11

I didn't say that, in fact I didn't count Singapore because I think the best car was the McLaren but since you discard Valencia because of the mechanical failure you should take Singapore instead.


So McLaren was the best car in Singapore according to your own words, but as Vettel won - AHEAD OF A MCLAREN - suddenly RB was dominant?
That makes much sense.....


I'm not counting every win, if most of RB wins are dominant is just consequence of having a great car. Since in Silverstone Alonso took pole and Webber took his time to overtake him I've already given you that one. In Bahrain and Monaco the RB was the car to be without a doubt, winning from pole is a dominant win by my standards.


I definitely don´t consider the wins of e.g. Vettel in Bahrain or Alonso in Hockenheim to be dominant, as they were seriously challenged by other drivers. That´s not exactly the definition of being dominant. Your standards are useless.

Edited by LiJu914, 16 October 2012 - 15:24.


#2144 Kelateboy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 15:20

I don't know if you are aware of the fact that even if Massa could challenge Webber, the race leader was easily cruising more than 10 seconds in front.

EDIT: We should move to the RB8 thread.

The race leader was having troubles with the front tyres. If Massa could have given a chase, the tyres might and could have hit the cliff. Unless of course you think Rocky was just being overly dramatic.

#2145 Kelateboy

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 15:59

I didn't say that, in fact I didn't count Singapore because I think the best car was the McLaren but since you discard Valencia because of the mechanical failure you should take Singapore instead. I'm not counting every win, if most of RB wins are dominant is just consequence of having a great car. Since in Silverstone Alonso took pole and Webber took his time to overtake him I've already given you that one. In Bahrain and Monaco the RB was the car to be without a doubt, winning from pole is a dominant win by my standards.

Try googling "Kimi admits he should have won in Bahrain". There are plenty of youtube clips of Kimi acknowledging that Lotus was the faster car that day and should have won the race.

Eric Boullier, Lotus' TP, had the following to say after the race :-

"I liked the fact that they were relieved, but not fully happy. We had just achieved a great result, but they already wanted more. They knew we could have won. Instead of simply enjoying the moment, they were trying to figure out what went wrong and why they were not standing on the first step of this podium."

http://www.totalf1.c...won_in_Bahrain/

I am surprised that you did not know about this as this was discussed extensively on this forum after the race.

With regards to Monaco, Mercedes qualified 1st and 3rd here. That should give you the clue that Red Bull was not a dominant car here despite the win with Rosberg 0.3s behind Webber at the finishing line. The only reason Webber won was because it was Monaco, where overtaking was impossible. Even Panis won this GP in 1996 under the right circumstances.


#2146 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 17:45

The race leader was having troubles with the front tyres. If Massa could have given a chase, the tyres might and could have hit the cliff. Unless of course you think Rocky was just being overly dramatic.


I do believe he was and Pirelli found enough rubber to support that theory. Anyway everybody seems to think Massa's tyres were rocks because their wearing is never took into account when talking about possible scenarios.

#2147 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 17:56

I do believe he was and Pirelli found enough rubber to support that theory. Anyway everybody seems to think Massa's tyres were rocks because their wearing is never took into account when talking about possible scenarios.

Actually, Massa could have had destroyed his tyres, pit in for new rubber, and repeat. And he would still have finished P4 (that large was the gap to Raikkonen, which would have been even larger, had he been allowed to push, rather than to cruise behind Alonso).
But again, all that is rather theoretical now. What happened is that Ferrari didn't take a gamble, and right now is advantage Vettel.

#2148 showtime

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 17:57

Try googling "Kimi admits he should have won in Bahrain". There are plenty of youtube clips of Kimi acknowledging that Lotus was the faster car that day and should have won the race.

Eric Boullier, Lotus' TP, had the following to say after the race :-

"I liked the fact that they were relieved, but not fully happy. We had just achieved a great result, but they already wanted more. They knew we could have won. Instead of simply enjoying the moment, they were trying to figure out what went wrong and why they were not standing on the first step of this podium."

http://www.totalf1.c...won_in_Bahrain/

I am surprised that you did not know about this as this was discussed extensively on this forum after the race.

With regards to Monaco, Mercedes qualified 1st and 3rd here. That should give you the clue that Red Bull was not a dominant car here despite the win with Rosberg 0.3s behind Webber at the finishing line. The only reason Webber won was because it was Monaco, where overtaking was impossible. Even Panis won this GP in 1996 under the right circumstances.


We are not going to agree on Bahrein. You think Lotus were faster because they say that they should have won (¿?). I think RB was faster because they got the pole and lead from there to the finish line. About Monaco, yes, maybe Webber wouldn't have won if Michael had started from pole but the only thing we know for sure is Webber had a comfortable race until the last part when he had issues with the tyres.
Anyway I'm leaving this discussion at least until the championship is (mathematically) decided. We have different opinions on who will be considered the best car at the end of the season and that's it.


#2149 joshb

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:38

Wierd how Sir Jackie Stewart says Vettel isn't one of the greats for winning in good cars yet he rates Jim Clark right up there, for basically doing the same, albeit with somewhat better numbers

#2150 sailor

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 19:44

Wierd how Sir Jackie Stewart says Vettel isn't one of the greats for winning in good cars yet he rates Jim Clark right up there, for basically doing the same, albeit with somewhat better numbers


Jackie who?